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  1. #1
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    Default Population trends and takeaways from the lock-downs plus default server switch

    The corona pandemic plus the later server switch from Orien to Thelanis on April 8 has given us a pretty good controlled experiment in how new players interact with DDO. Clemeit gave us a great tool in the LFM viewer and also collects population statistics on the servers [1]. While his methodology is unclear, it seems reasonable to assume that the relative trends are a pretty accurate. See the figure below for trends on Cannith, G-land, Orien and Thelanis.

    ddo-defaults.png

    When the lock-downs started, the server population for all of DDO grew, but the relative growth was higher for Orien (blue). This is reasonable if we assume that new players are most likely pick the default server, as Orien was the default at the time. The Orien population was consistently higher than the others already coming into this, probably also due to its status as default server.

    However, as soon as they switched the default to Thelanis (orange), we can see Orien starting to taper off. It lost like 25% of its population in only a month! (*). Meanwhile, Thelanis grew by almost the same amount, and looks likely to continue growing. It has now passed Orien as the largest server (picture is from a few days ago).

    Conclusions: The good news is that DDO still seems to be drawing in a steady trickle of new players. More lately. The growth potential is probably over 5% of the total DDO population per month. The bad news is that these do not seem to stick around. Nearly all come and go, staying on average a few weeks. At any given point these probably make up about 5-10% of the total DDO population, and is almost exclusively on the default server. This can also be verified by checking the difficulty of posted groups on the LFM tool. There is a huge divide where levels 1-10 on the default server is mostly running Normal (probably f2p), while every other server is mostly running reaper.

    Much has been said about the need for improving the new player experience. I don't know if it's feasible to hope to retain these players, but clearly most don't stick around beyond mid heroics or so. If I were the devs, I would ask these players what they needed to stick around. Another thing that is very clear from the LFM viewer in [1] is that most PUGs on all servers, at least on off-hours, have like 1-2 people. Full groups, the "D&D" experience, or at least the DDO experience of old, seem rare (at least in PUGs).

    I made this thread to discuss the meta and overall trends. For discussions of specific improvements for new players, there are also some good points in this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...us-to-continue

    (*) A possible confounding variable for the fast churn rate on Orien is lag, if lag was worse on Orien than the other servers at this point. However, all servers were reporting lag so they should also have been affected. EDIT: Acemonkey noted that new players are less invested and may not be as tolerant to lag. We don't know how much of the churn this accounts for, but it's at least a fixable problem.

    [1] https://www.playeraudit.com/reports
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 05-07-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    It will be interesting to see what lessons they learn from this. Hopefully they figure out that there is more to be gained by having more content easily accessible than there is by locking most of the content behind a paywall. For example, which will bring more revenue long term, selling the Restless Isles pack for 95 store points or keeping it at its current price? At the very least I suspect it would be wise to ensure that half the content is very cheap (95 store points each or less) so that people can join the game and easily play, at least to level 20, without feeling like they hit a paywall.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It will be interesting to see what lessons they learn from this. Hopefully they figure out that there is more to be gained by having more content easily accessible than there is by locking most of the content behind a paywall. For example, which will bring more revenue long term, selling the Restless Isles pack for 95 store points or keeping it at its current price? At the very least I suspect it would be wise to ensure that half the content is very cheap (95 store points each or less) so that people can join the game and easily play, at least to level 20, without feeling like they hit a paywall.
    It’s an odd fantasy that SSG wants some kind of awesome new player experience that will allow new people to play for months without hitting a paywall. They’ve built low quality of play and too slow xp into the game as core concepts, all requiring cash mitigation asap or else the game experience will stay painful. That’s WAI.

    None of that really matters while the game is laggy, though, even people who don’t mind the paywall are still leaving after a few weeks. They haven’t built up a tolerance for the insanely rough game experience DDO provides the way we have.

  4. #4
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Default A new server

    Just start a new server for ALL new players. That way they are all in the same boat and not being zerged through by multi tr's. They can learn at the same pace like we used to when the Cap was 20. If they enjoy it let them have a free transfer to a Server of their choice when they hit 20 or 30
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    Past Lives: Heroic, Epic, Iconic, Racial., Reaper Points,
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  5. #5
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    IMHO, the same problems remain in retaining new players:'?
    1. Lag.

    2. They see that they need to run a bazillion past lives to be uber in this game. I know people say that you dont need a lot of past lives, but I tend to disagree. E.G. what dc caster doesnt want +3 to their spell dc''s via sorc. past lives? And what players wouldnt like to max out their racial past lives for the free racial points to put in the tree? And on, and on. The younger players dont want to spend years running past lives to be uber, they want to do it in a few months or so as they can in other games out there.

    3. If you're not running past lives, what is there to do at cap, raid? How many people do you know that stay at cap and just raid????

    The games gonna cost money to play, thats a fact. Other games have expansions etc. and the equivalent of VIP with perks so I would think most gamers expect that.

  6. #6
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    Who knows, we may get free adventure packs permanently.

    Even if the past life thing was faster it's just unintuitive since no other mainstream game has it. People naturally want to level up and get gear, that's progress to them. Then when they figure out they basically delete their character (carefully chosen face, favour unlocks and all) as part of the progression system, it's a bit wonky. Maybe if it was implemented as a time loop/alternate reality mechanic, where you stay 20 and whenever you want to earn credits to past lives, you step into a portal which sends back to 1 in the Plane of Bizarro Eberron. When you want to change it up you can step through again to be 20. When you want to work towards the life again you step through the portal and go to say level 3 or wherever you've leveled up to previously. Instead of past lives, it's called bizzaro powerups.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistaMagic View Post
    Just start a new server for ALL new players. That way they are all in the same boat and not being zerged through by multi tr's. They can learn at the same pace like we used to when the Cap was 20. If they enjoy it let them have a free transfer to a Server of their choice when they hit 20 or 30
    This seems like a pretty good idea. I think you make the transfer use-able at any point they decide to jump into the shark tank.

    Additionally there are a number of players who really enjoy helping new players. Perhaps on a new player server a small group could be given a different status to act as in-game guides and help. SSG would have to limit and audit this to make sure those given the opportunity to do are actually helping people out, but it would be a neat way to have new players interact with veterans who want to take the time to help.

    It would take some effort but may really help get new players engaged in the game for a longer term. It would also give SSG a controlled environment on what new players like and don't like about the game itself without the added variable of community.

    Maybe have a lower level cap on the New Player Server.

    Any new player should be given an option of sever selection initially though, with an explanation and recommendation of trying the new player server first.
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  8. #8
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    There is no direct relationship between the price of DDO and the number of high-quality players. Poor players should work hard first. Online games should not be ranked first. Many players do not even have the habit of saying "hello", which is very abnormal in MMORPG, If the developer can't keep up with the progress of the times, the quality of the player will continue to decline.
    Last edited by Zhijie; 05-07-2020 at 10:19 AM.

  9. #9
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    Default

    DDO can't take new players anyway as the recent lag shows us. It also appeals to a very specific set of players and not MMO players in general. My founding guild had over a hundred active players who ground multiple characters to cap that first year, but I'm the only who still plays. I'll be here until SSG turns off the servers because I love building my characters and DDO feeds that craving in spades. My PvP, explorer, and story loving guildies had little to hold them here, so they went to other games that do those things. To each his own, I don't expect us to grow much and we're literally the only game in town for super-builders so we won't shrink much either.

  10. #10
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    I think a big takeaway here might be just how many new players are constantly fluxing in...people like to say that DDO is a dead game, a niche game, its just got its population of hardcore adherents but they'll slowly taper out...

    Here's clear evidence that the game's attracting a significant flow of new players, enough to take Thelanis from the bottom to the top in like a week. Some of that might be due to buzz about the free access month - but still, that's buzz. Its not from a paid advertising campaign or anything, which is also something people often call for.

    The players are coming, we just have to make them come back. Now to be fair, there's going to be a high turnover of new players even under the best circumstances, you just cant keep them all. But the potential for growth is clearly there.

    Maybe this does inform the devs to look at the priorities for things like lag (inasmuch as they can do anything else about it), and the new player experience - and I think there's some low-hanging fruit there, particularly updating Paths to be relevant. I've long worried how many players were lost because they took a Path that was designed in 2009 and got a horrible impression of the game. They're noob traps of the highest degree - things that seem to a new player to be designed specifically for them, but which guarantee a very mediocre to outright bad experience and teach you a lot of wrong things about the game.
    Last edited by droid327; 05-07-2020 at 10:25 AM.

  11. #11
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    I disagree that a server just for newbies is in any way a good idea - I tend to think that this would actually discourage newbies when they realise they have to transfer off it and leave their friends, guilds, shared banks, cosmetic pets etc. behind!

    This would also mean that older players who actually enjoy helping newbies would be bound to create characters on this server and given the different opinions and skills of older players to each other we'd have plenty of the same problems as other servers - Some older players would be certain to only play Elite or Reaper - Not many of them would be happy on Normal or Hard for instance!

    Newbies don't yet have the knowledge of the game to distinguish amazing loot from pure vendor trash - Just let them put items in your guildchests that they think others will want and you'll see like 99% of it will be pure vendor trash!

    The game itself isn't intuitive
    Korthos is great for newbies BUT Keep on the Borderlands has rendered it utterly pointless!
    The first quests you see on entering the Harbour from Korthos are Lvl 3s {except for Baudry} - Cerulean Hills, Kobold Assault {an extreme challenge quest}, the new Gatekeeper's Grove quests! The Lvl 2s are spread around the Harbour with no road map for newbies to follow.
    The 3 Barrel Cove/Ataraxia Boat has been moved closer to Korthos too {Now I've argued before that Guard Duty should have been a Korthos Quest, perhaps to get to the Harbour BUT 3BC is Lvl 5-7 quests on NORMAL! Ataraxia is Lvl 10 Content!}.
    WHY is there still no Bank in Korthos? I can understand having no AH there and no Airship Access there BUT A BANK!?!
    The Spirit Cake NPCs in Korthos could be streamlined - Why do we need two of them? Get rid of the NPC in the tavern!
    Update the Engraved Ring to give +2 AC and +3 to PRR/MRR, Remove the Starter marker on https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Alertness so it's actually vendable and doesn't have to be thrown away! Also, it's called The Ring of ALERTNESS - Make it Spot 3, Listen 3 as well as Move Silently 3.
    Update the named items from Stopping the Sahaugin - There's very little decent headgear at low levels to be fair!
    - Battered Helm - Currently +1 Intim, +1 Haggle - Make it +3 to each and add +3 Diplomacy
    - Engraved Circlet - Currently Will Save +1, Make it Will Save +3 and add Enchantment DC+1 AND Necro DC+1
    - Straw Hat - Currently Concentration 3, Tumble 1 - Remove Tumble and instead add Heal 3 and Spellcraft 3
    - Tattered Cowl - Currently Concentration 3, Diplo 1 - Change this to Bluff 3, Hide 3, Sneak Attack Bonus +1
    - Boots of Nimbleness - Currently Jump 1, Tumble 1 - Change to Jump 3, Tumble 3, Speed II
    - Expeditious Boots - CAN STAY AS THEY ARE
    - Winter Boots - Currently Cold Resistance 3 - Change to Cold Res 10, Add Balance 3 and Fort Save 3

    The Marketplace
    - Move Burgundy Tir to outside the side entrance to the Bank!
    - Move Gladewatch Outpost Questgiver INTO House Deneith!
    - Move Archer Pt Questgiver to outside Searing Heights
    - REMOVE the Specialist Clothing, Jewellery etc. Vendors and move all the Marketplace Collectable vendors to that area!
    - Move the Chronoscope Questgiver to Outside the Chronoscope Quest entrance!
    - Make Sacred Helm and STK pt 1 Lvl 4 Quests rather than Lvl 3!
    - Make STK pt 3 a Lvl 4 Quest rather than Lvl 5 {yes this will also mean reducing the Difficulty level of the traps and mobs in this quest!}.
    - Add a teleport into the Barracks option to Devil Assault so latecomers actually get to contribute rather than simply adding Scaling! {Give a 10/20/30% Chance on Heroic N/H/E for a +1 Stat Tome to drop in one of the two end chests!}


    The Houses
    - Remove all Trainer NPCS from House K, J and P - They're superfluous!
    - Tangleroot Pt 1+2 should be upgraded to Base Lvl 4, Tangleroot Pt 9+10 should be downgraded to Lvl 6
    - Move the Enemy Within Questgiver into the Drowning Sorrows Tavern!
    - Get Micah D'Jorasco OFF the Roof of the Chapterhouse in House J - Move him INTO Delera's Graveyard!
    - Add Airship Access to House Cannith!
    - Add the Favoured Soul Hirelings to the Divine Hireling Vendor in House K


    Ruins of Threnal
    - Remove the trainers - Add a Bank!
    - Change the Tavern to be Open Air so we don't lose Hirelings when entering it!
    - Change ALL the Quest base Levels to Lvl 10!
    - Add an Everbright vendor who players can pay to make their chosen weapon Everbright for 30 minutes!
    - Update the Arena into a proper quest - Base Lvl 10!
    - Add the Threnal Caves to the Quest Compendium and give them 3,6,9 House P Favour each!
    - Remove the finding the Key requirement from Entering the Gate Chamber - We've already found it once!
    - Change The Gate Chamber to be a full assault quest with dozens of Renders, Reavers, Flensers and a couple of Beholders coming through the gate after we kill the Giants!
    - Remove the "is there anything more to do here" NPC text from the Eastern Excavation and just have the Southern Excavation immediately applied when you get your reward so new players don't mess up and repeat East therefore locking themselves out of South


    Sorrowdusk Isle
    - Change the first two quests to base Lvl 7
    - Change the last two quests to base Lvl 9 {Yes this will require reducing the ludicrous trap damage from the penultimate quest!}.
    - Move the trapbox in quests 3+4 to the entrance side of the Bridge so players requiring rogue hirelings to disable can actually do so without a guaranteed death from Force Traps that do almost 300 damage to anyone without Evasion!
    - Make the side rooms worth entering in all quests so players are less inclined to just zerg through ignoring all opts!
    - Add a res shrine only at the end of Quest 3 so players who are in groups without trappers who make the suicide run don't have to release afterwards!
    - Add a few more mobs to the Slayer Zone - 113 per run {or 116 if you go back for the respawning scorpions} is a bit low - The Zone could easily support 150 mobs! {just add 1 more mob to each group for a start}
    - Move a couple of the lesser named items from the end reward list into Rare Chests {Hobnail Boots and Shrunken Head are likely examples}.
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 05-07-2020 at 12:58 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    It’s an odd fantasy that SSG wants some kind of awesome new player experience that will allow new people to play for months without hitting a paywall. They’ve built low quality of play and too slow xp into the game as core concepts, all requiring cash mitigation asap or else the game experience will stay painful. That’s WAI.

    None of that really matters while the game is laggy, though, even people who don’t mind the paywall are still leaving after a few weeks. They haven’t built up a tolerance for the insanely rough game experience DDO provides the way we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    The games gonna cost money to play, thats a fact. Other games have expansions etc. and the equivalent of VIP with perks so I would think most gamers expect that.
    The F2P model is based on letting your whales spend as much as they want. It turns out is more profitable for most games to let half the people play for free and to let their big spenders drop $1000 a month than it is to mandate that everyone pay $15 a month as both the minimum and maximum amount that can be spent.

    Players that never spend a dime help fill out the game worlds and give the people that spend $1000 someone to play with. Players that don't spend money are also usually weaker than players that do, which allows the players that spend money to feel stronger (a lot of people are competitive and like being better than others).

    To top it all off, people that only play for free tend to have higher tolerance for problems (whether it be excessive grind or other problems with the game) because they are playing for free and don't expect much.

    There are a lot of benefits to filling out game worlds with players, even if those player are not spending money (though let's face it, countless free players eventually break and spend money if they stay in the game long enough). The goal should be getting people to enter the game and stay whether they are spending money at first or not. Hitting a paywall isn't good for any game's retention. Paying should be a pleasure (i.e. it gives you things you want) rather than something you have to do just to tolerate the gaming experience.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It will be interesting to see what lessons they learn from this. Hopefully they figure out that there is more to be gained by having more content easily accessible than there is by locking most of the content behind a paywall. For example, which will bring more revenue long term, selling the Restless Isles pack for 95 store points or keeping it at its current price? At the very least I suspect it would be wise to ensure that half the content is very cheap (95 store points each or less) so that people can join the game and easily play, at least to level 20, without feeling like they hit a paywall.
    Honestly, even 95 seems overpriced for the Restless Isles.

    2 mediocre quests
    1 very convoluted wilderness area with low mob density
    1 raid (and pre-raid) that it is nearly impossible to find a group for and can't be solo'd

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    The F2P model is based on letting your whales spend as much as they want. It turns out is more profitable for most games to let half the people play for free and to let their big spenders drop $1000 a month than it is to mandate that everyone pay $15 a month as both the minimum and maximum amount that can be spent.

    Players that never spend a dime help fill out the game worlds and give the people that spend $1000 someone to play with. Players that don't spend money are also usually weaker than players that do, which allows the players that spend money to feel stronger (a lot of people are competitive and like being better than others).
    F2P/Whale model fails over the long time series if one insists on constantly increasing power cap. Can't square that circle. Also, all whales die. You can milk them for every drop in two months, or milk them slowly over years and get way more as well as create onramps for new whales. Which know which way SSG goes on this, the short-sighted way.

    Basically all the F2P players today, if one didn't start grinding F2P back in '07 (warning: exaggeration) are more correctly described as tiny resource sinks for the precious few resources left on the server to calculate mob pathing given the current state of the Olive Garden never-ending pasta bowl of code. At this point, a rational decision for existing players would be to tell new players to gtfo. It's a huge problem when that becomes a rational behavior choice because the design of your model is stuck wearing JNCO jeans.

    F2P concept should have transitioned to 3 month trial period, absolutely all content free, and then player either pays monthly service or leaves (or gets access in off hours if insistence on pseudo continuation of f2p model). Use time release gates to sell whales early access, and cosmetics. None of these are new ideas and would be more sustainable given psychological behavior of consumers.

    Biggest mistake was not understanding value in selling good cosmetics (and fixing the graphics engine to make viable). Fantasy world has nearly limitless opportunities to sell cosmetic gear. True whales fly from L.A. to Japan to visit the Supreme store there and buy an overpriced tshirt with exactly no extra powers just because they can Insta it. Funny that everyone in modern world seems to understand how this mechanic works except people designing goods and services for sale at SSG.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    The good news is that DDO still seems to be drawing in a steady trickle of new players. More lately. The growth potential is probably over 5% of the total DDO population per month. The bad news is that these do not seem to stick around. Nearly all come and go, staying on average a few weeks. At any given point these probably make up about 5-10% of the total DDO population, and is almost exclusively on the default server. This can also be verified by checking the difficulty of posted groups on the LFM tool. There is a huge divide where levels 1-10 on the default server is mostly running Normal (probably f2p), while every other server is mostly running reaper.
    I don't know that I'd call a steady trickle "good" news. It's not good news, or even news, that people eat free samples at Costco. It's only "good" when the commercial conversion happens. Considering that people haven't heard enough bad things about DDO that they stay away based on reputation only is "good" as long as we agree we're lowering the bar so low a Kobold wouldn't trip over it.

    Offering people an experience for free never fails to bring people in the door. If conversion doesn't happen though, and they walk back out to a one, it's nothing more than a resource consumptive fail. That's the rule of marketing. Right now, conversion is failing. Maybe it's not the right consumers... or, just maybe, it's not the right product. SSG has now given away the product and seemingly proved itis inadequate given the current state of the market (in a pandemic no less).

    See the zero hedge on how this plays out without a real change in trajectory.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidu View Post
    t also appeals to a very specific set of players and not MMO players in general. My founding guild had over a hundred active players who ground multiple characters to cap that first year, but I'm the only who still plays. I'll be here until SSG turns off the servers because I love building my characters and DDO feeds that craving in spades. My PvP, explorer, and story loving guildies had little to hold them here, so they went to other games that do those things. To each his own, I don't expect us to grow much and we're literally the only game in town for super-builders so we won't shrink much either.
    I basically agree with this. I'm sure there's some things DDO could do to improve retention a little here and there, most of which are pretty obvious like performance improvements and megaserver grouping, but it's going to be a low retention game. Also, a lot of the "new" people are "samplers" by nature. People who go around and try a lot of different games. I don't join newbie groups much these days, but I used to make an effort to do so, and it's really common to hear that they've played a dozen different MMOs in the past year.


    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    nother thing that is very clear from the LFM viewer in [1] is that most PUGs on all servers, at least on off-hours, have like 1-2 people. Full groups, the "D&D" experience, or at least the DDO experience of old, seem rare (at least in PUGs).
    This is just how groups fill. It can take forever to get that 2 and 3rd person, but once you have 5 the 6th shows up right away. And once you have 6 the group is suppose to disappear from the LFM panel, so there's no way of really knowing how many full groups are out there.


    Another thing is that while most new players probably log into the default server first, my bet is that once they decide they like the game and want to stick around that they go sample all the servers and see what fits best (and for the free favor points). People will happen to click with groups on different servers and distribute out by nature a bit. This is consistent with the data that seems to show a fast increase in the default server followed by a slower, but more sustained rise in all the other servers. Not all of them are leaving, some are finding homes in places other than the default.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 05-07-2020 at 04:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I don't know that I'd call a steady trickle "good" news. It's not good news, or even news, that people eat free samples at Costco. It's only "good" when the commercial conversion happens. Considering that people haven't heard enough bad things about DDO that they stay away based on reputation only is "good" as long as we agree we're lowering the bar so low a Kobold wouldn't trip over it.

    Offering people an experience for free never fails to bring people in the door. If conversion doesn't happen though, and they walk back out to a one, it's nothing more than a resource consumptive fail. That's the rule of marketing. Right now, conversion is failing. Maybe it's not the right consumers... or, just maybe, it's not the right product. SSG has now given away the product and seemingly proved itis inadequate given the current state of the market (in a pandemic no less).
    To us it seems like it's failing (new player comments), but is it? Only SSG know. If a tiny portion of the new people are whales that could very well be profitable for SSG. I doubt whales come on here and post about how they've just dropped $1k. This may be a free trial period but it's also a trial business model whether intended or not. What's the trial? Free adventure packs for everyone. SSG keeps earning with the xp pots and such plus transistions to more cosmetics. I wouldn't be surprised if it's extended another month.

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    The things is, restricting players from content is also affecting paying players. Outside of the free access period it is harder to find or fill LFM unless it's a F2P quest or a quest pack that almost everyone has. Guest passes cost quite a bit of DP for short duration, it's better saving up and buying the pack proper.

    What about a VIP perk (and/or fairly cheap DP point perk, lasting a real life month): You can open a group for all content that you personally own and everyone can enter. If it is a pack they don't own they can't get favor and can't wear named items from there. This offers a way to try a pack for free, but if someone wants to fully benefit from it (and be able to enter on their own), they need to buy it.


    DDO is the most restrictive F2P game regarding access to content/dungeons/areas I think. But I also know that it has a low playerbase, most MMOs would be in maintenance mode with that low playerbase. We are lucky that we get so much content still :-)

    I guess it costs the same to develop content whether you have 10k paying players or 1 Million. So it's kinda understandable why DDO is more expensive than other MMOs. DDO new (mini-)expansions 30$ minimum, FFXIV, GW2 WOW expansions with three times the content about 40$

  19. #19
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carsonfball View Post
    Honestly, even 95 seems overpriced for the Restless Isles.

    2 mediocre quests
    2 of the best quests in the game you mean?

    They're Unique yes but mediocre...**** NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by carsonfball View Post
    1 very convoluted wilderness area with low mob density
    Convoluted? You'll hit every part of it if you turn left at every junction and have someone who can open locks with you!

    As for low mob density - That's just straight up WRONG! There's over 300 mobs in each instance! It has one of the highest mob per instances of any Heroic slayer!

    Vale is higher yes, So's Orchard whilst 3BC and Gianthold are about the same but Compared to Red Fens which barely has 150 mobs in an instance Restless Isles slayer is GREAT!

    It could do with more Rares but that's a different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by carsonfball View Post
    1 raid (and pre-raid) that it is nearly impossible to find a group for and can't be solo'd
    Yep - This Raid is from the days of Lvl 10 Cap and it's astonishing the Devs haven't made it more playable in the 12 years since!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Convoluted? You'll hit every part of it if you turn left at every junction and have someone who can open locks with you!
    By convoluted, I mean you have to keep going up, and then back down, then back up again. Each time, IIRC, causing a loading screen. And, even if someone doesn't find that annoying, there's not a high enough mob density to bother with slayers. It doesn't matter how many mobs there are, the density isn't very high.

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