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  1. #1
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Default Devs - Divine Might is still stacking with Insight Stunning

    Devs, three issues I suggest you fix. The first two are bugs, the third is a suggestion,

    (1) Divine Might is still stacking with Insight Stunning

    (2) Legendary Corroded Iron Figurine says +11 Insight Stunning, but it appears to be giving +12 (or maybe the Stunning on it is +24 instead of +23)

    (3) Cormyrean Knight Training (PDK enhancement) also stacks with Divine Might, and I think that's a mistake. PDK Paladins can triple dip from a single stat (CHA), increasing their Dire Charge DC extremely high, compared to other melee. CKT should probably be increased to give the SAME bonus as Divine Might (1/2 CHA stat bonus to tactics instead of 1/3), but not stack. It should an enhancement a PDK could use if you didn't have access to Divine Might.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Devs, three issues I suggest you fix. The first two are bugs, the third is a suggestion,

    (1) Divine Might is still stacking with Insight Stunning

    (2) Legendary Corroded Iron Figurine says +11 Insight Stunning, but it appears to be giving +12 (or maybe the Stunning on it is +24 instead of +23)

    (3) Cormyrean Knight Training (PDK enhancement) also stacks with Divine Might, and I think that's a mistake. PDK Paladins can triple dip from a single stat (CHA), increasing their Dire Charge DC extremely high, compared to other melee. CKT should probably be increased to give the SAME bonus as Divine Might (1/2 CHA stat bonus to tactics instead of 1/3), but not stack. It should an enhancement a PDK could use if you didn't have access to Divine Might.
    1 - Divine Might is Insightful Tactics, not Insightful Stunning. Does it stack with Insighful Combat Mastery? I'm not sure if it works like Spell Saves, which stacks with individual spell saves like Enchantment Saves, or if its more like Potency vs. Fire/Acid/etc. Spellpower.

    3 - Why you trying to nerf PDKs? CKT is not supposed to be a Trance. Its 1/3 because its supposed to augment everything else. Also its limited to only CKT weapons, too.

  3. #3
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    CKT has stacked with Divine Presence since the latter's introduction in U36.2 and no one cared. It hasn't suddenly become OP just because paladins no longer have to splash FvS to get that bonus; and PDK bard players no longer have to buy FvS when they can use a cleric splash instead. Particularly since making Battle Trances not stack with Insightful gear has effed up everyone's gear sets.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    1 - Divine Might is Insightful Tactics, not Insightful Stunning. Does it stack with Insighful Combat Mastery? I'm not sure if it works like Spell Saves, which stacks with individual spell saves like Enchantment Saves, or if its more like Potency vs. Fire/Acid/etc. Spellpower.
    Insightful bonuses should not stack. Insightful Stunning does not stack with Insight Combat Mastery. Harpers Know the Angles does not stack with Insightful Stunning or Insight Combat Mastery. Divine Might does. That's a bug.

    3 - Why you trying to nerf PDKs? CKT is not supposed to be a Trance. Its 1/3 because its supposed to augment everything else. Also its limited to only CKT weapons, too.
    I'm trying to nerf Paladin PDKs. Triple dipping a single stat is a bad design. Increasing CKT to equal the other trances could be a boost for other pure PDK melees who wouldn't have to splash a class to get access to Divine Might.

    You make a good point about the limited weapon set (although one can switch to a weapon, do a dire charge, then switch back to a better weapon).
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I'm trying to nerf Paladin PDKs. Triple dipping a single stat is a bad design. Increasing CKT to equal the other trances could be a boost for other pure PDK melees who wouldn't have to splash a class to get access to Divine Might.

    You make a good point about the limited weapon set (although one can switch to a weapon, do a dire charge, then switch back to a better weapon).
    I'd argue that making a high DC dire charge (or bard freeze which also uses CKT effectively) near mandatory for melee and one of the only ways they can hang with ranged/casters, especially solo, is the bad design. Insight bonuses obviously shouldn't be stacking, that sounds like a bug.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You make a good point about the limited weapon set (although one can switch to a weapon, do a dire charge, then switch back to a better weapon).

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  7. #7
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Was I wrong about CKT bonus applying if you switch to the correct weapon, or is it that you think it is just too cumbersome to switch weapons before and after a dire charge?

    I usually start each fight with a LGS affirmation weapon in my hand, dire charge in, that usually procs the temp hp, then I switch to my main weapon, so it's not THAT cumbersome (although I only do that as I enter a room, I don't switch weapons every single dire charge)
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Was I wrong about CKT bonus applying if you switch to the correct weapon, or is it that you think it is just too cumbersome to switch weapons before and after a dire charge?

    I usually start each fight with a LGS affirmation weapon in my hand, dire charge in, that usually procs the temp hp, then I switch to my main weapon, so it's not THAT cumbersome (although I only do that as I enter a room, I don't switch weapons every single dire charge)
    With all due respect, I think that nerfing things based on your experience, and the way you play, is generally not the way to go...

  9. #9
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapco View Post
    With all due respect, I think that nerfing things based on your experience, and the way you play, is generally not the way to go...
    My experience has nothing to do with my "nerf" suggestion. There was legitimate discussion going on.

    I said we should rethink how CKT works.

    Someone said "Well, it is limited to certain weapons"

    I said, "you bring up a good point. But one can swap weapons, so one could use CKT and still use better weapons in battle. So is it really a limit?"

    Someone else posted a "question mark" picture.

    I asked why they meant, made a guess about what they meant, and answered my own guess (probably not the best idea).

    Do you have any input on CKT?

    Triple-dipping the same stat is over-powered. One of the Paladins original balancing FEATURE in Dungeons and Dragons is that it had to spread points among many stats.

    Now, DDO has set it up where a PDK Paladin only needs to max out CHA to do everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  10. #10
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Well since its been posted, ill bite. The U45 notes make no claim that insightful tactics dcs given by battle trances should no longer stack with insightful combat mastery and stunning items. It makes it explicitly clear that they changed the damage and attack portion to not stack and claim nothing about tactics dcs. It happens that insightful combat mastery does stack with battle trances. As far as I'm concerned this is WAI.

  11. #11
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    what's that saying about nice things?

  12. #12
    Community Member cave_diver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapco View Post
    With all due respect, I think that nerfing things based on your experience, and the way you play, is generally not the way to go...

    +1
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    what's that saying about nice things?
    And/or ants

  14. #14
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    Well since its been posted, ill bite. The U45 notes make no claim that insightful tactics dcs given by battle trances should no longer stack with insightful combat mastery and stunning items. It makes it explicitly clear that they changed the damage and attack portion to not stack and claim nothing about tactics dcs. It happens that insightful combat mastery does stack with battle trances. As far as I'm concerned this is WAI.
    Okay, I stand corrected.

    Love the new item then.. No-fail Dire Charge for everyone. And now even stuns may be useful at end-game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  15. #15
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Okay, I stand corrected.

    Love the new item then.. No-fail Dire Charge for everyone. And now even stuns may be useful at end-game.
    I do presume this will change at some point to not stack, but I would like a dev to chime in and tell us their thoughts on this. In some instances is is absolutely essential that those stack in order for a low life/repear ap toon can hit dcs in reaper sharn (probably around 130). In other instances like paladin and pdk hitting like 180 dc is massive overkill as the no fail for fort on the highest mob currently is like 140 for spells meaning about 136 ish for dire charge.

  16. #16
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    I imagine that this is going to remain as it is. Each Iconic has a unique sell point, and this specifically happens to be the PDK unique selling point. Sun Elf has access to the Buffs and Healing, Shadar-Kai has the chains, etc.

    Also, not only is this one of the first Iconics, it's also tied in with Eveningstar (Forgotten Realms). And we all already know about how the Devs can't touch the Key to Eveningstar already. The PDK might possibly be also under similar restrictions. And if so, you won't see the PDK get nerfed/balanced that easily even if it is broken. So long as it doesn't hinder or break the game, it will likely remain as is.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    I do presume this will change at some point to not stack, but I would like a dev to chime in and tell us their thoughts on this. In some instances is is absolutely essential that those stack in order for a low life/repear ap toon can hit dcs in reaper sharn (probably around 130). In other instances like paladin and pdk hitting like 180 dc is massive overkill as the no fail for fort on the highest mob currently is like 140 for spells meaning about 136 ish for dire charge.
    I agree that it wasn't explicitly called out but it shouldn't need to be. Following this logic though I would expect Spell focus mastery to stack with specific school focus. It is an INSIGHTFUL bonus to tactics and if the player already has an INSIGHTFUL bonus then it shouldn't stack.

  18. #18
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J1NG View Post
    I imagine that this is going to remain as it is. Each Iconic has a unique sell point, and this specifically happens to be the PDK unique selling point. Sun Elf has access to the Buffs and Healing, Shadar-Kai has the chains, etc.

    Also, not only is this one of the first Iconics, it's also tied in with Eveningstar (Forgotten Realms). And we all already know about how the Devs can't touch the Key to Eveningstar already. The PDK might possibly be also under similar restrictions. And if so, you won't see the PDK get nerfed/balanced that easily even if it is broken. So long as it doesn't hinder or break the game, it will likely remain as is.

    J1NG
    not to mention that being a PDK pure paladin requires at least a +1 heart of wood.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    not to mention that being a PDK pure paladin requires at least a +1 heart of wood.
    So the 800 points it costs for a heart +1 means you should get a 25 point boost to your DC? Hmmm, I see..... Meanwhile other racial tactics abilities give a grand total of +3 (for 3 points spent).

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    My experience has nothing to do with my "nerf" suggestion. There was legitimate discussion going on.

    I said we should rethink how CKT works.

    Someone said "Well, it is limited to certain weapons"

    I said, "you bring up a good point. But one can swap weapons, so one could use CKT and still use better weapons in battle. So is it really a limit?"

    Someone else posted a "question mark" picture.

    I asked why they meant, made a guess about what they meant, and answered my own guess (probably not the best idea).

    Do you have any input on CKT?

    Triple-dipping the same stat is over-powered. One of the Paladins original balancing FEATURE in Dungeons and Dragons is that it had to spread points among many stats.

    Now, DDO has set it up where a PDK Paladin only needs to max out CHA to do everything.
    Because if you're doing the weapon swap, you're not triple dipping your main stat. I say that because if you're swapping to a different weapon, then making CHA your main stat is...dumb. The "bwah" moment comes when someone gets the sense that you're *****ing about Paladins only having to push CHA, but then swapping to a weapon that doesn't benefit from CHA to hit and damage. If CHA is your main stat and you're two handed fighting, then you use a greatsword unless you're facing something like a stone guard or a red name with big DR/bludgeon. Switching to anything else is a DPS loss.

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