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  1. #221
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Sharn gear gets a DC caster to baaarely playable in Sharn on Elite / R1. And you have to be 29. Good luck doing any of that content earlier than that, the difference is huge.
    The jump in power from 28-29 is huge for ALL characters. No one is talking about anyone who is 28 doing high reaper runs in Sharn.


    "Easy to acquire" is highly subjective / RNG dependent. 10~15 E/R1 runs per item with a full group is not what I'd call "easy to acquire" (from personal experience). Especially when you have to acquire that gear on a toon that does not function in the content, from which you are trying to acquire it. Sure, one can drop down to Hard, but that can easily double the number of runs required.
    I don't know what to tell you. It's Bound-To-Account, named quest gear. There's nothing easier to acquire.

    The "past lives don't affect" argument has already been debunked in this thread. I do agree with you they are not mandatory. PLs are very incremental for a huge time investment, so you can give up and play Normal / Hard. Do you still want them to have an effective toon for higher difficulties? Absolutely! And they do add up to a lot because 10~15 DC can be the difference between "almost always fail" and "almost always succeed".
    There is no 10-15 DC difference. It's a difference of +3 to different schools, and +2 (if you get both completionists). So a +2 difference for Enchant and Necro, and +5 for Conjuration, Transmutation, and Evocation.

    The +2 difference for enchant and necro is negligible. No one needs max past-lives to run high reaper as a DC caster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  2. #222
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It's not a terrible solution for end-game characters...

    But Dire Charge is not available from 1-28, and being able to stun 2-3 mobs at once in the lower levels has really been a boon to leveling THF characters.

    Yes, once you have Dire Charge, being able to stun multi-targets with a second attack may be overkill, but let's not break 1-28 to fix end-game.
    This seems right to me. Dire charge is the weirdo here. If something needs to be nerfed that would be the thing to it.

    I like the suggestion higher up of making direcharge str/dex based so that you can't double/tripple/etc down on bonuses from a single stat with trance, CKT, and whetever else. That's where Tactics DCs start to get silly. Non str-dex build could still make it work with enough tactics bonuses, but they wouldn't have silly-season DCs.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 05-07-2020 at 10:32 AM.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  3. #223
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    rent schools, and +2 (if you get both completionists). So a +2 difference for Enchant and Necro, and +5 for Conjuration, Transmutation, and Evocation.

    The +2 difference for enchant and necro is negligible. No one needs max past-lives to run high reaper as a DC caster.
    +1 wiz PL
    +1 racial stat PLs (1.5 for cha)

    then there's racial AP which will realistically add at least +1 more, and +9 spell pen which can free up feats

    +4 from tomes

    +6.5 from reaper points

    +1 reaper helm

    +1 festival gem

    +1 yugo

    +.5 globe

    etc, etc, we all know how it works

    PLs are always the focus, but there's a whole continuum from low-grind to high-grind builds. Effective DC casters are high grind builds. Particularly if you also want any kind of DPS. Tactics builds are not high-grind even with decent DPS. Maybe that's a problem, maybe it isn't (for various reasons), but it's definitely true. Sure you can cut out the PLs, and get everything else and you're probably OK, but that's kind of missing the point.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  4. #224
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorpus View Post
    As a DC caster, you choose to exchange the ability to deal damage for CC and instakills. A melee without functional tactics can deal dps, whereas a DC caster without functional DCs is completely useless. If there's a DC edge, it should go to the guy who's piking if his DCs don't land a reasonable percentage of the time.


    Melees should either have greatly reduced multi-target CC (by making tactics not work with strikethrough or by removing dire charge from the game) or have significantly lower DCs. Alternatively, melees could be forced to invest more heavily in their tactics at the expense of most of their DPS if they want their tactics to succeed. This would...
    - Force melees to develop styles of play more complex and mechanically demanding than "dire charge + cleaves/caf/strikethrough" if they want to successfully solo even mid skull content
    - Encourage distinct roles in high end content (for example, CC and healing) without requiring it for lower end content

    Casters should have significantly higher DCs. The two styles of play that need the most love as far as DCs go are nukers (who get to watch enemies in high end content happily evade their DPS) and wisdom-based casters. This would...
    - Allow wisdom-based casters to be viable in high end content
    - Allow CC casting to once again become a valuable and distinct role to have in a group
    - Allow even characters without maxed out past lives, gear, and reaper points to have a reasonable amount of success as casters


    I hate the growing belief that every single class and style of play has to be good at everything; it makes DDO bland and chips away at the customization that has historically been its greatest strength.
    Melees should have good DPS and bad (or good but single target) CC, with THF dealing better AoE DPS but lower single target DPS than TWF or SWF
    DC casters should have good CC and instakills but bad DPS
    Nuking casters should have worse CC and instakills than DC casters but good (albeit not very sustainable) DPS with high evocation DCs
    Ranged characters should deal lower DPS than melee characters and have less survivability, but make it for that by not having to engage enemies from within their hitboxes

    Get rid of Aasimar lays and possibly cocoon (among other things) and make roles useful again without making them required unless you want to run high end content - I have no problem with needing, for example, a dedicated CC character to run R10 sSharn, but you should not need a dedicated CC character if you want to run R1 Sharn.
    __________________________________

    I totally went off on a tangent (okay, multiple tangents), but hopefully somewhere in my rambling post I answered your question
    Thanks! Fleshing out your thoughts makes the best case for your position, so this is a really good response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorpus View Post
    I hate the growing belief that every single class and style of play has to be good at everything; it makes DDO bland and chips away at the customization that has historically been its greatest strength.
    In my opinion, this can only happen with a lack of good design goals. DDO became bland for me when they took away risk vs reward decisions, and acted like the community was crazy for complaining about this. Hopefully they will self-correct in your situation, but I don't think they actually understand design very well - based on their history of actions. It's more likely they will throw out some tired manta like "people will always complain" to deflect their weakness in design, rather than take a fresh look at how they are designing their game, and do better moving forward.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Pretty simple question. How did you not get killed?

    Is your character strong enough to stand alone in an R10 dungeon, and cast spells that don't work very well (only 35% success), not moving so you can count mobs, and not get killed?

    Or did you have help with a group? Or was there a safe spot?

    I'm inclined to believe your results, but I'd still like confirmation on how you achieved them.

    A good experiment is repeatable by others. How did you perform this experiment?
    It can be easily reproduced by anyone by pressing the keys W A S D with the correct input order.
    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    There is no shortage of content in this game for the weakest 5% of players.

    For most content, they have three difficulties designed solely for them, Casual, Normal and Hard.

  6. #226
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    PLs make a difference, and having all the bells and whistles helps and isn't trivial. But there's no need to over-state things, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    +4 from tomes
    Versus +2.5 from free favor tome. +1.5 for pay or raid tome lottery.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    +6.5 from reaper points
    +5 of which is low-grind to get. +1.5 difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    +1 yugo
    Easy for anyone to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    +.5 globe
    Who needs a Globe? Augment purchasable in Twelve via tokens gives same bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  7. #227
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    +1 wiz PL
    +1 racial stat PLs (1.5 for cha)

    then there's racial AP which will realistically add at least +1 more, and +9 spell pen which can free up feats

    +4 from tomes

    +6.5 from reaper points

    +1 reaper helm

    +1 festival gem

    +1 yugo

    +.5 globe

    etc, etc, we all know how it works

    PLs are always the focus, but there's a whole continuum from low-grind to high-grind builds. Effective DC casters are high grind builds. Particularly if you also want any kind of DPS. Tactics builds are not high-grind even with decent DPS. Maybe that's a problem, maybe it isn't (for various reasons), but it's definitely true. Sure you can cut out the PLs, and get everything else and you're probably OK, but that's kind of missing the point.
    We were talking about PLs.

    Yes, you have to do some work to make a good DC caster for high reaper Sharn.

    But that's a GOOD thing.

    But you DON'T need max PLs or max reaper points. A few PLs, sure... A few reaper points, sure. Got to get some gear, sure. Festive +2 INT jewels when Night Revels shows up, sure, Get the favor for Yugo pots, sure.. You can't do NOTHING, and expect to be good.

    But it's not necessary to max everything out to be an effective DC caster in high-reaper end-game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  8. #228
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    PLs make a difference, and having all the bells and whistles helps and isn't trivial. But there's no need to over-state things, either.



    Versus +2.5 from free favor tome. +1.5 for pay or raid tome lottery.



    +5 of which is low-grind to get. +1.5 difference.



    Easy for anyone to get.



    Who needs a Globe? Augment purchasable in Twelve via tokens gives same bonus.
    5K favor isn't low grind. Neither is 20 raid completions on legacy raids.

    There's not really any low-hanging reaper point DCs when you consider the trade offs with defensive stuff in grim barricade. A tactics build can ignore dread adversary unless after they have 21 points in GB since dread adversary isn't necessary for tactics DCs. If you want the same benefits on a DC caster build get ready to grind.

    Yugo favor is an obnoxious PITA and doesn't last through TR. Not a big deal if you're leaving a character at cap for years, but if you TR with any regularity it's a non-trivial time sink to maintain.

    *Greater* tokens of the twelve. Which require raid completions from legacy raids. And compete with masters gift for the them.

    It all adds up. It's easy to trivialize what it takes to get any one bonus, but needing a lot of them is what makes a build require grind. And casters DCs require more grind than tactics to get into the viable range because the baseline is lower. I don't get how this is controversial.

    Yes, you have to do some work to make a good DC caster for high reaper Sharn.

    But that's a GOOD thing.
    Sure, I'm kind of agnostic on that. I'm just baffled by the claims that there isn't a grind (and/or DPS sacrifice) difference between getting viable spell DCs and viable tactics DCs. maybe that's good, maybe it's not, but it's definitely true.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 05-07-2020 at 11:51 AM.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  9. #229
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    [Please note that these are my views and in no way invalidate yours if you disagree with them]

    A lot of the discussion is about getting insane levels of tactical DCs and their performance in high level reaper, with some inference that a nerf is needed.

    The people who are most hurt when the nerf bat is swung tends to be us bottom feeders who don't have all of the PLs, reaper trees completed, raid gear etc. If the nerf bat is used can it be made such us lower powered characters are not disproportionately effected.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorpus View Post
    Melees should have good DPS and bad (or good but single target) CC, with THF dealing better AoE DPS but lower single target DPS than TWF or SWF
    Well, a zerodps CC-specced melee should have as good or better CC than a zerodps caster.
    I'd argue slightly better, because the caster has the range advantage. The melee has sacrificed not only their dps but also more survivability, where the CC caster has only sacrificed dps. For the sake of fair tradeoffs, such a character's CC should be better (unless you're talking a CC with defense better than staying at range in displacement would offer. I'm sure a vanguard can get that).

    I'm totally agreeing on everything else in your post, but I think it's the hybrid dps/cc that is overperforming on melee.
    Reverting stuns to not strike through, as Gilga suggested, would fix that but would not be my preferred solution. I'd look into melee DCs and what they have to give up.

  11. #231
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedip View Post
    [Please note that these are my views and in no way invalidate yours if you disagree with them]

    A lot of the discussion is about getting insane levels of tactical DCs and their performance in high level reaper, with some inference that a nerf is needed.

    The people who are most hurt when the nerf bat is swung tends to be us bottom feeders who don't have all of the PLs, reaper trees completed, raid gear etc. If the nerf bat is used can it be made such us lower powered characters are not disproportionately effected.
    First, not wanting people to make accurate descriptive statements about the current state of things because you're worried about what the prescriptive reaction will be is a bad culture to cultivate. We shouldn't have to pretend that something isn't true because we're worried that might lead to a change we don't like. I think it's entirely plausible that this is all entirely WAI and the devs want tactics DCs to be easier to obtain and to be a bit more effective than they used to be. Second, if anything gets nerfed it's likely to be some outlier stacking stuff on flavor of the month builds. And casuals don't play flavor of the month builds. Particularly ones that require premium respec tokens from the cash store to make. Third, I don't think that's a fair assessment of past balance changes in general. It's the spin certain posters try to put on them because they know "won't anyone think of the newbs!" garners sympathy, but it's rarely accurate.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  12. #232
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    I disagree Direcharge needs nerfed on the basis of R10 performance.

    If we are talking R10 then it's wrong imo to focus only on one aspect. DC.

    Compared to DC casting it's more limited in application, can be unreliable, and is limited to 6s duration. It also requires getting close enough to get it in the face which is massive risk in R10, compared to, well, not. It's also unlikely to be an instakill in R10 given the 6s limitation. In all these respects it's the lesser option.

    That said, if you must, however wrongly imo, focus solely on DC, there does look to be an issue with CKT stacking with DM stacking with CHA tactics. There should be an opportunity cost in terms of investment in more than one ability to attain highest tactical DCs, imo. The CTK/DM/CHA stacking goodness definitely looks like an outlier in that respect. Maybe the nerf, if there really does have to be one, is to set all tactical base DCs to be based on STR only, allowing DM KTA CTK etc., to be added, so attainable, but requiring investment in other abilities accordingly...

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    We were talking about PLs.

    Yes, you have to do some work to make a good DC caster for high reaper Sharn.

    But that's a GOOD thing.

    But you DON'T need max PLs or max reaper points. A few PLs, sure... A few reaper points, sure. Got to get some gear, sure. Festive +2 INT jewels when Night Revels shows up, sure, Get the favor for Yugo pots, sure.. You can't do NOTHING, and expect to be good.

    But it's not necessary to max everything out to be an effective DC caster in high-reaper end-game.

    I don't think you'll find anyone who says that you shouldn't have to do some grind to be an effective "anything". For me, the issue is much more one of opportunity cost. Getting a solid tactics DC requires much less build cost than it does getting a solid spell DC/spell pen. If a toon's tactical abilities don't land, that toon is still extremely good at sticking the enemy with the pointy end of whatever weapon they're carrying. If a DC caster fails to land their CC, they don't have the spell DPS to fall back on. If we take the wisdom list as an example (for comparison sake only): that toon is using all of their heroic, epic and legendary feats, all of their twists, all of their filigree slots (on a maxed out gem with a spark and a raid filigree), and 9-10 gear slots just to DC cast. How many feats/twists/filigrees and gear slots does a melee have to devote to use tactics?



    Quote Originally Posted by thedip View Post
    [Please note that these are my views and in no way invalidate yours if you disagree with them]

    A lot of the discussion is about getting insane levels of tactical DCs and their performance in high level reaper, with some inference that a nerf is needed.

    The people who are most hurt when the nerf bat is swung tends to be us bottom feeders who don't have all of the PLs, reaper trees completed, raid gear etc. If the nerf bat is used can it be made such us lower powered characters are not disproportionately effected.

    This is one of the reasons why I'd like to see a lot of the systems move towards something more akin to the hit chance/AC system. Decide how often an ability should work for an "average" toon, and center a normal distribution on that. If you want to get to the 95% no fail level, you can, but it will take significant costs from other locations to get there. You can be a reasonably effective DC caster and still deal decent DPS, or a reasonably effective tactics user with good dps. If you want to be a no fail DC caster or tactics user, it should cost you enough so that your DPS falls significantly.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    We were talking about PLs.

    Yes, you have to do some work to make a good DC caster for high reaper Sharn.

    But that's a GOOD thing.

    But you DON'T need max PLs or max reaper points. A few PLs, sure... A few reaper points, sure. Got to get some gear, sure. Festive +2 INT jewels when Night Revels shows up, sure, Get the favor for Yugo pots, sure.. You can't do NOTHING, and expect to be good.

    But it's not necessary to max everything out to be an effective DC caster in high-reaper end-game.
    I don't play a high-end DC caster, but I can't imagine a Sorc would run anything besides Tiefling or Dragonborn. Dragonborn get +3 to DCs in T3, Tiefling get +2 in T4. From what I've heard, Sorcs need to run at least 22 points in EK for medium armor, making those Tiefling or Dragonborn racials *barely* achievable without racial PLs. The same could be said of Pale Master Gnomes and Illusion, or even Druids / FvS and Dragonborn

    It's not that max PLs only give you significantly better DCs. In order to achieve DCs within 10 of a multi-PL build you need to sacrifice every last bit of versatility and survivability, turning you into one of those 700-hp casters who die in an epic normal raid when an enemy farts in their general direction.

    T3 reaper seems pretty achievable - 15 points can get you +5 to DCs and 60 health as early as level 17. But even if you have another 6 by level 20-30, presumably you're going to put them in Barricade instead for another 200+ health to avoid getting one-shot while running around in robes

  15. #235
    Community Member Varr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    5K favor isn't low grind. Neither is 20 raid completions on legacy raids.

    There's not really any low-hanging reaper point DCs when you consider the trade offs with defensive stuff in grim barricade. A tactics build can ignore dread adversary unless after they have 21 points in GB since dread adversary isn't necessary for tactics DCs. If you want the same benefits on a DC caster build get ready to grind.

    Yugo favor is an obnoxious PITA and doesn't last through TR. Not a big deal if you're leaving a character at cap for years, but if you TR with any regularity it's a non-trivial time sink to maintain.

    *Greater* tokens of the twelve. Which require raid completions from legacy raids. And compete with masters gift for the them.

    It all adds up. It's easy to trivialize what it takes to get any one bonus, but needing a lot of them is what makes a build require grind. And casters DCs require more grind than tactics to get into the viable range because the baseline is lower. I don't get how this is controversial.


    Sure, I'm kind of agnostic on that. I'm just baffled by the claims that there isn't a grind (and/or DPS sacrifice) difference between getting viable spell DCs and viable tactics DCs. maybe that's good, maybe it's not, but it's definitely true.
    The core point: It takes a lot to make a DC caster effective in R8-R10 endgame and that obtainable DC is a lower number than Melee DCs achieved with less effort/investment of time. Not sure anyone disagrees with this 12 pages in.

    Should the difference be reduced by lifting casters or lowering melee, or even if it truly matters that the difference exits are all being debated.

    Only chiming in again as this post caught my eye specifically.

    Not sure I care if 0-5 past life casters can do R8 endgame as primary cast. For that type of toon, 5k favor, Yugo pots, 20 raids might all be a grind.

    For 40, 60, 150 past life toons that R8-R10 should be the challenge for...…...these things are not a grind, more a blip of energy compared to the grind of a 100 past lives. **** I paid $30 and spent 6 weeks getting 5k favor on the hardcore server for Varr, just for the flavor of silly red footprints.

    While I think we agree on the core point, just wanted to respond that none of the above is grind unless discussing a player/toon best suited to Hard - R4 runs. If you think a 3 past life toon should be R10 capable as a caster, we disagree. I know some are, and some melee esp are now, but the hardest setting should be in place in this game for the lunatics.
    Varr's all over. Cannith Varr getting the love currently.

  16. #236
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    The core point: It takes a lot to make a DC caster effective in R8-R10 endgame and that obtainable DC is a lower number than Melee DCs achieved with less effort/investment of time. Not sure anyone disagrees with this 12 pages in.
    OK, it sure sounded like people were disagreeing with that, but maybe I misunderstood, and if playing it like that is easier it's cool with me. If that fact is established I'm happy. As I said, I don't have a strong opinion about whether this is a good or bad structure, I was simply very surprised that people appeared to be saying it wasn't the case.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    The core point: It takes a lot to make a DC caster effective in R8-R10 endgame and that obtainable DC is a lower number than Melee DCs achieved with less effort/investment of time.
    Are you taking into account the decade it takes to build a melee up to the point it will survive in R8-10, or is this one of those theory-crafted scenarios where mobs don't fight back?
    Last edited by Tilomere; 05-07-2020 at 02:42 PM.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Are you taking into account the decade it takes to build a melee up to the point it will survive in R8-10, or is this one of those theory-crafted scenarios where mobs don't fight back?
    You see this is what makes me want to pull my hair out. This is a perfectly reasonable argument to make for why it's OK that tactics DCs are easier to hit. It's a completely nonsensical argument to make for why tactics DCs are not actually easier to hit.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Are you taking into account the decade it takes to build a melee up to the point it will survive in R8-10, or is this one of those theory-crafted scenarios where mobs don't fight back?
    Yup, looks like casters are whining and ignoring the plethora of draw backs to tactics to just focus on one aspect dcs. No mentions are being made of the fact that casters get more options, much faster recast times, range, much, much, much larger aoe, no mention of to hit, somehow the investment in caster dc is so much harder (hint they are pretty darn similar outside of pdk), and somehow now the most powerful attacks in the game are not room clearing despite what I see sorcs do on the regular. Oh and no mention of the tremendous defensive advantage that is being ranged.

    Fact of the matter is so many in this thread are being flat out disingenuous, only focusing on the litteral single pro vs the cons that is tactics vs dcs. If you want to have that discussion, you must discuss all aspects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niknight View Post
    I don't think you'll find anyone who says that you shouldn't have to do some grind to be an effective "anything". For me, the issue is much more one of opportunity cost. Getting a solid tactics DC requires much less build cost than it does getting a solid spell DC/spell pen. If a toon's tactical abilities don't land, that toon is still extremely good at sticking the enemy with the pointy end of whatever weapon they're carrying. If a DC caster fails to land their CC, they don't have the spell DPS to fall back on. If we take the wisdom list as an example (for comparison sake only): that toon is using all of their heroic, epic and legendary feats, all of their twists, all of their filigree slots (on a maxed out gem with a spark and a raid filigree), and 9-10 gear slots just to DC cast. How many feats/twists/filigrees and gear slots does a melee have to devote to use tactics?






    This is one of the reasons why I'd like to see a lot of the systems move towards something more akin to the hit chance/AC system. Decide how often an ability should work for an "average" toon, and center a normal distribution on that. If you want to get to the 95% no fail level, you can, but it will take significant costs from other locations to get there. You can be a reasonably effective DC caster and still deal decent DPS, or a reasonably effective tactics user with good dps. If you want to be a no fail DC caster or tactics user, it should cost you enough so that your DPS falls significantly.
    this would only work if tactics were on par with spells. They are not, not even close. They only area tactics currently are better than spells is in DC in every other way they are inferior.

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