Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,134

    Default Too many spells?

    Are there too many spells for most caster classes?

    Right now a pure wizard will have 45 spell slots available at 20, and other classes have lots of slots too...while the versatility is useful to a point, sooner or later you end up slotting spells you know you'll never use, either because there's nothing left at a level that's useful, or just because you already have a full rotation and more spells just become redundant (or make previous spells obsolete). I don't think anyone needs 45 spells or can really effectively use that many in practical gameplay.

    What if there was another option to get value out of slots you don't need? I'm thinking of a "spell" you could slot - call it "Magical Focus" or something - that gave you USP equal to 2x the level of the slot, doubled again at L20. Take it for as many slots as you want. Prepared casters could plug it in at taverns, innate casters could take it at level up.

    That would give casters the option to specialize in just the spells they want to use...it'd make a spectrum between versatility and efficacy. Every slot would have some minimum value, even for levels where spellbooks are a little threadbare for a given build.

    It does leave DC casters out still, but that's a harder thing to increment...maybe you can take one per level that's 1/4 the level (round up) bonus to a single school DC, or 1/2 the level in spell pen? Maybe it's just +1 dc to all spells of the same level? Less sure about that.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by droid327; 04-09-2020 at 01:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    929

    Default

    Its interesting that you bring up wizard... on my wizard i use all the spell slots, regularly. Some spell levels i even wish i had more.

    For divine casters, when im on a fvs its only spell level 6 that i wish i had more spells. A bunch of my cleric spells slots are wasted.

    When i play druid, i find the problem is a lack of viable spells, like divine. I wish i had more spells that i could fill slots into, that said i only have a few slots on a druid that feel like junk slots, unlike cleric.

    Alchemists feel like druids, mostly enough viable spells to fill slots, but i wish there were more options. Almost 25% of alchemist spells are these useless weapon imbues that no one uses. And then the multivials all share a cooldown. They should just murge these spells into one. How would you like 5 spells for your resist energy, or 10 for teleport.

    Anyways, wizards, fvs, and sorcers i feel like i fill up all my spell slots with viable useful spells.

  3. #3

    Default

    The solution to the Wizard having too many spell slots is Sorcerer.
    Kobold sentient jewel still hate you.

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    The solution to the Wizard having too many spell slots is Sorcerer.
    Funny actually, this came up because I was playing around with an EK Sorc on Lama and there were many spells on my hotbar I just didnt use because I was mostly Cleaving and SLAing - I only had the one element plus useful buffs.

    I'm not saying, of course, that spell slots should be reduced, or that there's no playstyle that benefits from using all the slots available...I'm just asking for the option to play with a more focused spellbook, if that's the playstyle you're going for

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    133

    Default

    In my view, the issue isn't having too many spell slots, it's having those slots locked into certain spell levels. The ideal solution would be to say that your X level slots can be used to prepare any spell of level X or lower. Why shouldn't I be able to use my 8th level preparation slots to memorize a 4th level spell?

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,722

    Default

    Wasn't there a prestige class that could reserve spell slots for permanent buffs of some sort? It was a terrible prestige class if I remember right, but it has been a few decades. Some monkish arcane, desert campaign?

  7. #7
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cannith, usually
    Posts
    2,606

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    What if there was another option to get value out of slots you don't need? I'm thinking of a "spell" you could slot - call it "Magical Focus" or something - that gave you USP equal to 2x the level of the slot, doubled again at L20. Take it for as many slots as you want. Prepared casters could plug it in at taverns, innate casters could take it at level up.
    If as a Wizard I ditch everything other than Meteor Swarm & Mass Hold, I'd be getting 828 bonus USP. PM capstone for self-heals, Displacement/Expeditious Retreat clickies, and Arcane Pulse for bosses cover most of the rest.

    Sounds balanced! I'd probably grab Death Aura as well for hilarity reasons, not that you'd need to lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Its interesting that you bring up wizard... on my wizard i use all the spell slots, regularly. Some spell levels i even wish i had more.
    Some levels more than others Like Wizard 5 is weak IMO.
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  8. #8
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    7,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Are there too many spells for most caster classes?

    Right now a pure wizard will have 45 spell slots available at 20, and other classes have lots of slots too...while the versatility is useful to a point, sooner or later you end up slotting spells you know you'll never use, either because there's nothing left at a level that's useful, or just because you already have a full rotation and more spells just become redundant (or make previous spells obsolete).
    Wizards have tons of choices to fill in those 45 slots.

    Pulling some info off the wiki, I see:

    Code:
    Class    spells slots ratio
    Cleric   125    54    2.31
    Druid    117    54    2.17
    FvS      124    32    3.88
    Sorc     191    32    5.97
    Wiz      191    45    4.24
    Alch     107    30    3.57
    Arti      67    28    2.39
    Bard      72    29    2.48
    War       86    12    7.17
    Druids and Clerics have far fewer choices to fill in their slots than Wiz, or Sorc or Warlock for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  9. #9
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    An undisclosed location. I asked my captors but they remain tight lipped.
    Posts
    661

    Default

    When I played a caster wizard (and cleric), I would tailor the hotbar for the quest chain I was running. I didn't need all the spells at any given time, though. I would keep a few slotted as a just-in-case, should I omit something (Such as a critter that resists a specific spell type, or an alternate school debuff.)
    But, yes, some spells just aren't worth a second look.
    Sometimes I'm too clever for my own good. Bear in mind I'm probably trying to be humorous. Like dodge, it's hit or miss.// Looking for a guild on Orien? Send a tell or mail to Magnifique to join the "Fidelic Brotherhood".

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    383

    Default

    I love having all those spells. Don't want to use them, don't have to use them. It's like pen and paper, tons to choose from. Heck, I'd love if they added even more spells for flavor. I mean, we've got wings, dire charge, and now a new melee charge... I want blink. =)

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Wizards have tons of choices to fill in those 45 slots.

    Druids and Clerics have far fewer choices to fill in their slots than Wiz, or Sorc or Warlock for that matter.
    Counterpoint...Arcane casters have 6 major "elements" (acid fire cold air force sonic), Divine only have 3 (light pos fire)...a lot of the Arcane spellbook is basically just the same spell, cloned in 4 different elements, whereas I dont think any of the Divine (or Druid) spellbook are copies of the same mechanic. Since most arcane casters arent going to take more than two elements, half those "palette swap" spells are DOA.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    If as a Wizard I ditch everything other than Meteor Swarm & Mass Hold, I'd be getting 828 bonus USP.
    Eh maybe the "double for Epic" was unnecessary then Max of +450 USP at 20 for the cost of all your spell slots sounds balanced.

  13. #13
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,627

    Default

    When I look at my old Wizard, the main thing that jumps into my eyes is how many quick access bars I have there and how much they block the view if not turned off ...
    "No, it doesn't say 'Lifeling' "

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,722

    Default

    Ah I found it! Mystic of Nog from Al-Qadim!

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    What if there was another option to get value out of slots you don't need? I'm thinking of a "spell" you could slot - call it "Magical Focus" or something - that gave you USP equal to 2x the level of the slot, doubled again at L20. Take it for as many slots as you want. Prepared casters could plug it in at taverns, innate casters could take it at level up.
    No, not generic USP. I don't agree the giving up a lvl 1 slot so have any benefit to any spell above level 1.

    This problem has already been more or less solved in games like DS. Just allow the same spell to take up more than one slot for a given level and grant a small boost that particular spell (either by spell power/dc/ or length - so you could do buffs and CC spells). Then you don't have to create faux spells, you just have to allow the existing spell to slot multiple times and grant a perma-buff when that's done.

    You want to cast a slight longer haste, slot it 2 times.

    I for one think a long lasting grease spell would be the biggest result of this.

  16. #16
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cannith, usually
    Posts
    2,606

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    You want to cast a slight longer haste, slot it 2 times.

    I for one think a long lasting grease spell would be the biggest result of this.
    Longer Death Auras seems really strong.
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Longer Death Auras seems really strong.
    It wouldn't be terribly difficult to balance. Just determine a modest scaling for multi-slot (sp/dc/length) and a requisite increase in mana cost per slot used.

    You could say something like each additional slot used adds +slot spell level to SP/+1 to DC (or +.5/DC if you really want to be stingy)/and say +5% to the duration (if it's a buff), in exchange for +mana cost of spell slot level x slots used.

    Looking at a wiz, you'd cap out at +36 SP/+4 DC/+20% if you used all slots on a 9th lvl spell for a single spell for buffing just that spell. The biggest benefit would be to DC casters who aren't fully geared and need DCs to land. They can give up some flexibility to gain effectiveness and then gain back that flexibility as they get better gear.

  18. #18
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Just allow the same spell to take up more than one slot for a given level and grant a small boost that particular spell (either by spell power/dc/ or length - so you could do buffs and CC spells).
    I'd be worried this implementation might create as many problems as it solved...

    For one, it favors builds that dont have two marquee spells in the same tier. PMs, for example, get DA+NEB in the same tier, so they'd have to choose which of those to buff. Whereas a Fire Sorc is perfectly fine taking DBF 4 times in L7, because there's nothing else useful. USP wouldnt create winners and losers like that.

    I'd be afraid this would swing the design too far the other way - make it too heavily favored to specialize. If your 'extra' slots give you a bonus to all your spells, then it creates a continuous spectrum between versatility and efficacy - however many spells you want to run with, you can, and whatever's left over will boost them all. If you're forced to choose just one spell to boost, though, then that creates an incentive to hyper-focus on that one spell and too much of a trade-off conflict. Invisibility may be useful sometimes, and that may be worth giving up 4 USP for the occasional use...but its probably not worth giving up +10% damage to your Melf's or Scorch.

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Ah I found it! Mystic of Nog from Al-Qadim!
    That seems like it'd be way better in an MMO than it was in PnP That could totally be the lore "cover" for my suggestion...call the pseudospell "Arcanum of Nog":

    You have devoted yourself to the teachings of the Mystics of Nog, who could commit some of their magical ability to sharpen their minds.

    Now I kinda wish this is what they'd done for Alchemist...let you slot permanent bonuses instead of having to manually cast self-only infusions.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I'd be worried this implementation might create as many problems as it solved...

    For one, it favors builds that dont have two marquee spells in the same tier. PMs, for example, get DA+NEB in the same tier, so they'd have to choose which of those to buff. Whereas a Fire Sorc is perfectly fine taking DBF 4 times in L7, because there's nothing else useful. USP wouldnt create winners and losers like that.

    I'd be afraid this would swing the design too far the other way - make it too heavily favored to specialize. If your 'extra' slots give you a bonus to all your spells, then it creates a continuous spectrum between versatility and efficacy - however many spells you want to run with, you can, and whatever's left over will boost them all. If you're forced to choose just one spell to boost, though, then that creates an incentive to hyper-focus on that one spell and too much of a trade-off conflict. Invisibility may be useful sometimes, and that may be worth giving up 4 USP for the occasional use...but its probably not worth giving up +10% damage to your Melf's or Scorch.
    No, it wouldn't need to play out that way because if you scale the mana cost per slot used, that is the tradeoff for the sorc. Its focus at a cost, in spells and in mana.

    My methodology or a variant thereof would caps at like +36sp, which by the time you get to end game, is negligible when you're talking a sorc in primary element running at 750+sp. You want that tiny bit extra, it will cost you FoD/Prismatic or other special use spells. Sorcs also only have 3 7 lvl slots, so the most you get is a 2 slot benefit, and 2 x 7sp, so a 14sp increase. That's pretty small to give up FoD.

    Like I said, the bigger reward would be +DC for undergeared toons, or a bump in the middle of the power curve with virtually no impact on the end of the curve because declining benefits as you get closer to 30 and better gear starts to lessen the DC bump efficacy and you can go back to flexibility.

    I'll repeat what I said earlier, there is no excuse/reasoning for a lvl 1 spell slot to add anything to a higher level spell. A spell caster is not a better caster of Polar Ray because they didn't slot Grease. In games where spells have fixed slots that are way better balanced than DDO, the tradeoff for singular spell power costing more slots is already well-established.

    You're basically asking for them to trade slots you don't use, which will skew low level, for power in all spells you do, mostly high level. They'll never grant that because the ask is unreasonable.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload