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  1. #1
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    Default There shall be zero tolerance for clerical errors

    What I'm talking about are bugs that affect the QoL for healers. Specifically, bugs as relate to healing pale masters, who show up with increasing frequency now in epics I've noticed need to be fixed in the next patch. If you want to say these are low priority because pale masters SHOULD be immune to positive energy healing, kindly go away, that ship has sailed. Don't be passive aggressive, it isn't a good look.
    There is a common thread in all of these bugs. Pretty much every SLA that involves healing doesn't work. Cleric aura: broken. Cleric positive energy burst: broken, Healing domain healing SLAs (both 5th and 9th level): Broken. Just about every other class' healing type SLA (like alchemist healing SLA bottles): Broken

    You need to fix this. This is beyond annoying when playing a cleric (or fvs or alchemist). I know exactly why this bug exists too: when you made Pale masters healable at 50%, you just modified the CLW/CMW/CSW/CCW/Heal spells. You forgot to do the SLAs. Fix this, and do it in update 46 if not sooner.
    There are two big reasons you need to fix this: The first is that any QoL bug affecting healing classes which are often/usually in shortage, especially for newer players who are less self-sufficient and who are around in greater numbers right now should never be tolerated. It is bad for the game. Having to go into reactive mode to heal is inherently lower QoL as it is.
    The second is that it improves relations in general with the player base to fix QoL bugs. Leaving bugs unfixed that hurt QoL or players (e.g., the altruism enhancement rank 3 still doesn't give the +10 positive spell power for how long now?) creates an adversarial culture between devs and players, making it less likely that other sorts of bugs that I won't mention here get reported.

    Now there are 2 ways to fix this: fix every single SLA out there, and commit to remember this every single time you add something new OR
    just make pale master shrouds have a negative 50 healing amp (or whatever number you think is required) and be done with it (remove the positive energy immunity etc from it) which would remove any issues going into the future.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    If you want to say these are low priority because pale masters SHOULD be immune to positive energy healing, kindly go away, that ship has sailed. Don't be passive aggressive, it isn't a good look.
    If you want a bug fixed by the devs, you should open a bug report.

    When you post on a discussion forum, and pre-insult anyone who happens to disagree with you in an attempt to shut down discussion, it isn't a good look.

    They need to fix the design error of letting undead abominations ever get any benefit from any Positive Energy spells. If anything, it should damage them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post

    They need to fix the design error of letting undead abominations ever get any benefit from any Positive Energy spells. If anything, it should damage them.
    pretty much my thoughts exactly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If you want a bug fixed by the devs, you should open a bug report.

    When you post on a discussion forum, and pre-insult anyone who happens to disagree with you in an attempt to shut down discussion, it isn't a good look.

    They need to fix the design error of letting undead abominations ever get any benefit from any Positive Energy spells. If anything, it should damage them.
    You know as well as I do that bug reports don't actually get things fixed. Buzz on the forums gets things fixed. They know or should know about this bug. It has been cited multiple times.

    What you're doing is trying to fight a rear guard action against the change to pale masters allowing them to be healed.
    I know you don't like the lore on it, but guess what. Pale masters unheal-able by positive energy healing is contrary to the meta where people play reaper. It is just fine in elite and below. But since we've crossed that bridge and the norm now are reaper groups, especially if you want people to join a public LFM, that change was made and has been a positive one. If you really want your lore, you need to argue to make reaper no longer the meta, probably by removing reaper points and the xp bonus for reaper. But that's irrelevant from the purpose of this post, which is to get a bug fixed. Would you rather the bug stays in a passive aggressive resistance while pale masters remain heal-able by basic heal type spells but not SLAs? That's why I was preemptive, I foresaw exactly the kind of irrelevant nonsense you're posting.

    Realistically there are 2 possible outcomes; Bug is fixed and pale masters are heal-able without QoL issues or
    bug is not fixed but pale masters are still healed with basic spells. Which do you prefer? The devs are not going to make pale masters immune to positive healing and absolutely aren't going to make them harmed by positive energy. That's not even vaguely on the table and you need to recognize it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    You know as well as I do that bug reports don't actually get things fixed.
    I don't necessarily know that. I have no visibility into the dev's bug tracking systems. How did you get access? Secretly one of the devs? Hack into their computers? Just making stuff up?

    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    I know you don't like the lore on it, but guess what. Pale masters unheal-able by positive energy healing is contrary to the meta
    Meta, meta, meta, blah, blah, blah. I just don't care. It's a stupid argument. The meta changes; it changed before, and it can and will change again. The lore doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    Realistically there are 2 possible outcomes; Bug is fixed and pale masters are heal-able without QoL issues or
    bug is not fixed but pale masters are still healed with basic spells. Which do you prefer? The devs are not going to make pale masters immune to positive healing and absolutely aren't going to make them harmed by positive energy. That's not even vaguely on the table and you need to recognize it.
    Sorry, you don't get to decide what's on the table. There are more than your 2 options, and you saying there's only 2 doesn't change that.

    I'm guessing that you are trying to shut out superior solutions, because you want your easy-button. The game already has too many easy-buttons.

    Options have (or should have) trade-offs and opportunity costs. If you want to be an undead abomination, you shouldn't get healed by positive energy. If you want to get healed by positive energy, don't be an undead abomination.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 04-07-2020 at 12:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  6. #6
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    How can you have been a member of the Players Council and not know this? That bug has been reported many times by many people.

    And how can you not recognize that a developer change pretty much never gets rescinded unless a lot of people have significant issues with it?
    And how can you not recognize that the overwhelming majority of LFMs are, and will continue to be R1 or higher LFMs. Neither you or I can change that. And the developers have shown less than zero interest in changing that.

    You are wasting my time. Add making me feel decidedly negatively towards you onto the costs to the game of not fixing QoL bugs promptly.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    just make pale master shrouds have a negative 50 healing amp (or whatever number you think is required) and be done with it (remove the positive energy immunity etc from it) which would remove any issues going into the future.
    The problem with that is that it would combine additively with any other source of Heal Amp. Ie if you had +90% Heal Amp, currently you'd get 1.9 * 0.5 = 0.95 of a regular heal. If it was just -50% heal amp, you'd get 1.9 - 0.5 = 1.4 of a regular heal.

    They're going to need to go back in and take out all the "does not affect friendly undead" flags manually, that's the only way to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    The meta changes; it changed before, and it can and will change again. The lore doesn't.
    If you want a story, go read a book. This is a game, and games require balance.

    When you disallow an entire build from being able to participate in something as fundamental as being healed in a party, especially when your group mode REQUIRES you to be healed by your party mates, that's not balanced. Its not a question of shifting the meta, its a question of the meta would just be "dont play PM" because thats what the game design indicates.

    If you dont like it...then fine, dont like it, but its necessary to make PMs a viable option to actually play the game, so your lore objections are overruled.

    Also, if you're going to be such a sticker on the lore, at least get the lore right. PMs arent undead. They're surrounded in a shroud of necromantic magic. That doesnt make you an actual undead anymore than casting Stoneskin makes you an actual rock.
    Last edited by droid327; 04-07-2020 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    You know as well as I do that bug reports don't actually get things fixed.
    Bug reports actually help quite a bit. We also keep an eye on forum chatter but if you see something wrong, reporting the bug is really really helpful. If I have time before u46 I can go through the spells again to try and get the last few working, but I'm really busy this week with u46 preview work. I'll try to let you all know if this makes it in. Thanks :)
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If you want a bug fixed by the devs, you should open a bug report.
    Bug reports are a black hole for players. At least when posting on the forum there's a non-zero chance of dev interaction, and other players can add their observations/personal experiences.
    Khyber: Kobeyashi | Ying. R10 or bust.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    How can you have been a member of the Players Council and not know this? That bug has been reported many times by many people.
    When I was on Player's Council, more than a few years ago now, the Council members did not have access to the dev's bug tracking systems. So I didn't then, and still don't, know what percentage of bug reports get addressed, after what timeline. Do you claim to know such things? If so, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    And how can you not recognize that a developer change pretty much never gets rescinded unless a lot of people have significant issues with it?
    Oh, I fully recognize that the devs don't like to admit their mistakes. But they rarely do, but every once in a while. I don't expect, but I still can hope that they will recognize, admit, and correct their mistake in letting undead be healed by positive energy, rather than expanding that mistake as you propose.

    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    And how can you not recognize that the overwhelming majority of LFMs are, and will continue to be R1 or higher LFMs. Neither you or I can change that. And the developers have shown less than zero interest in changing that.
    I'm not sure why you think I don't recognize that, or why you think it's relevant to undead being healed by positive energy. I do and it's not.

    Reaper or not, any Cleric or FvS can use negative energy just fine, unless they are too lazy or incompetent. I did so for many years. For other characters, Inflict wands and scrolls are cheap, and Harm scrolls can be bought for Mysterious Remnants, if they really want to enable undead.

    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    You are wasting my time.
    If you didn't want your time wasted on discussion, don't post on a discussion forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    Add making me feel decidedly negatively towards you onto the costs to the game of not fixing QoL bugs promptly.
    You felt and spoke negatively toward me even before I posted, name-calling me "passive aggressive" and telling me to "go away" just because I don't agree with your call for easy-buttons and lack of trade-offs and broken lore.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 04-07-2020 at 02:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    If you want a story, go read a book. This is a game, and games require balance.
    Exactly, so make people choosing to be undead pay the appropriate balance trade-off for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    When you disallow an entire build from being able to participate in something as fundamental as being healed in a party, especially when your group mode REQUIRES you to be healed by your party mates, that's not balanced. Its not a question of shifting the meta, its a question of the meta would just be "dont play PM" because thats what the game design indicates.

    If you dont like it...then fine, dont like it, but its necessary to make PMs a viable option to actually play the game, so your lore objections are overruled.
    So many factual errors. Nobody's talking about "disallowing" anything.

    I guess you've never played with the many PMs who continue to self-heal OK in high-skull Reaper?
    I guess you're unaware of the fact that multiple classes have negative energy spells they can heal PM teammate with? Plus consumable options? Plus temp HP options?
    I guess you didn't know that PMs can choose to toggle their undead state on or off at any given moment if needed?

    PMs were and would be again just fine, including in Reaper, if and when Positive Energy healing is removed for undead. Well, unless you're an incompetent PM and/or playing with incompetent teammates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Bug reports actually help quite a bit. We also keep an eye on forum chatter but if you see something wrong, reporting the bug is really really helpful. If I have time before u46 I can go through the spells again to try and get the last few working, but I'm really busy this week with u46 preview work. I'll try to let you all know if this makes it in. Thanks
    Does update 46 involve charging people for something new coming out?

    I hope not, I am hoping update 46 is about fixing the game. A real fix! Not the oh we are working on it, We think we can fix some of it or We are looking into it commentary.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Bug reports actually help quite a bit. We also keep an eye on forum chatter but if you see something wrong, reporting the bug is really really helpful. If I have time before u46 I can go through the spells again to try and get the last few working, but I'm really busy this week with u46 preview work. I'll try to let you all know if this makes it in. Thanks
    So does that mean that the bug reporting feature is fixed?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Exactly, so make people choosing to be undead pay the appropriate balance trade-off for that.

    In high skull the trade off isn't worth it. I'd play in fleshie form all the time if So many of the PM bonuses weren't restricted to undead form.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    So many factual errors. Nobody's talking about "disallowing" anything.
    You want the build to suck in reaper because you have something against undead, no point in trying to pretend otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I guess you've never played with the many PMs who continue to self-heal OK in high-skull Reaper?
    I am playing a PM right now, the self healing really starts to fall apart at R3-4, though with my gear I'm able to heal kinda alright at R6. My build is optimized for negative heal amp&Spellpower, with the exception of not using the stacking bonus from the ravenloft belt. I need to swap to a healamp item and drop undead form to be healed in R10. This is of course from an endgame perspective, the numbers are far worse in lower level mid-highskull reaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I guess you're unaware of the fact that multiple classes have negative energy spells they can heal PM teammate with? Plus consumable options? Plus temp HP options?
    With the exception of running with other pale masters there is virtually no party healing via negative energy, No clerics slot inflict wounds, and even if they slotted harm it's a straight downgrade from heal, not to mention its horrifically buggy targeting makes it non-functional for healing.

    I assume you're joking with the talk of consumables, consumable self-healing is a non factor in reaper, you think harm scrolls (from the remnant vendor) are going to do anything in midskull? Also you don't seem to understand that healing OTHERS (not just self-healing) is also reduced by reaper, just at a lesser rate than self healing. A inflict wand or harm scroll (burning remnants each cast) is totally useless weather for self healing, or healing an undead party member.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I guess you didn't know that PMs can choose to toggle their undead state on or off at any given moment if needed?
    I know this because I need to turn off my shroud to even have a chance of surviving in R8-10, which also disables a huge amount of the enhancement trees bonuses&features.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    PMs were and would be again just fine, including in Reaper, if and when Positive Energy healing is removed for undead. Well, unless you're an incompetent PM and/or playing with incompetent teammates.
    PMs weren't fine in high reaper that's part of the reason they changed this in the first place, the other being that having party members you can't heal is really awful for Cleric/Fvs players, which is another reason to fix the SLAs. A third reason is lore-wise, since PMs have always been able to be healed by positive energy on the tabletop, them being immune to positive is a major lore error that was corrected by the recent change, though I'm perfectly willing to live with the 50% penalty for balance reasons.
    Last edited by FlavoredSoul; 04-07-2020 at 03:21 PM.

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    Thank you OP for bringing this up.

    It is extremely infuriating as both a pale master player and a divine that half the abilities don't work on undead players.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Meta, meta, meta, blah, blah, blah. I just don't care. It's a stupid argument. The meta changes; it changed before, and it can and will change again. The lore doesn't.

    Options have (or should have) trade-offs and opportunity costs. If you want to be an undead abomination, you shouldn't get healed by positive energy. If you want to get healed by positive energy, don't be an undead abomination.
    I mean, in one context if you play Warforged you go against the lore. Every warforged character can be construed as already having existed in DDO before shipwrecking in korthos, sure, but that's still one "New" warforged from the eyes of the world and the player base. And don't get me started on TR'ing into a warforged.

    In an ideal setting, lore should set the stage for the game. However, GAME MECHANICS should trump lore when a game needs balance to survive.

    Healers being able to heal a pale master is beneficial to the health of the game. If they can't heal themselves, and many of the healers don't slot in negative spells for said players, that negatively effects that player. Reaper makes it extra hard for those players because they need to rely on others (which is a point of Reaper btw) and with the change to healing it made it easier on the healers/other party members than it did before. Put your personal feelings aside and see that the change was good overall for the game.

    If you don't like it, you don't have to play one, you don't have to choose to heal one either. You can blissfully ignore the change. Or don't.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Exactly, so make people choosing to be undead pay the appropriate balance trade-off for that.
    They do. 50% penalty on positive heals. That IS the appropriate balance trade-off for PM benefits.

    I guess you're unaware of the fact that multiple classes have negative energy spells they can heal PM teammate with? Plus consumable options? Plus temp HP options?
    I guess you didn't know that PMs can choose to toggle their undead state on or off at any given moment if needed?
    Only if they slot them, which 99% of the time random healers arent going to slot Harm "just in case". Unlike Positive spells that are auto-slotted for some healers, and always worth slotting for everyone else.

    Are you suggesting that PMs potion heal in high skull legendary?

    Are you also suggesting that PMs lower their shroud, wait for it to deactivate, and then tell their healer "ok ready heal pls" and wait for them to comply? That'd take an eternity in the course of a fight - that's not a viable strategy for the game as it actually exists either.

    And again - PMs arent undead anyway so even trying to make the pedantic lore argument is moot!

  18. #18
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    I agree with the overarching idea of this thread: fix the bugs plaguing positive SLAs and Undead allies.

    I don't agree with the personal attacks, straw-man arguments, and passive-aggressive undertones woven throughout the OP and subsequent replies. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I agree with the overarching idea of this thread: fix the bugs plaguing positive SLAs and Undead allies.
    Yep. Thankfully, I think I'm all set with another full pass over every spell and SLA in the game. Things that will be fixed with U46:

    Cleric Healing Domain feat 2 and 3 (cure and panacea)
    Base spells for admixtures
    Pos energy burst
    Pos energy aura
    Alc Core SLAs
    Alc tree SLAs (including inflicts)

    Did I miss anything else? Please let me know!
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yep. Thankfully, I think I'm all set with another full pass over every spell and SLA in the game. Things that will be fixed with U46:

    Cleric Healing Domain feat 2 and 3 (cure and panacea)
    Base spells for admixtures
    Pos energy burst
    Pos energy aura
    Alc Core SLAs
    Alc tree SLAs (including inflicts)

    Did I miss anything else? Please let me know!
    Thanks for your diligence in fixing these.

    Might pay to check the cure SLAs in Exalted angel and the Artificer cure SLAs . If I recall the FVS beacon tree has healing SLAs also.

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