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  1. #1
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    Default End game attack speed for bow, light repeater, light crossbow at bab 21 and 30

    I did some testing of different ranged setups attack speed. I fired 1000 bolts/arrows and timed it. I had both rapid reload and rapid shot. I used epic defensive fighting so no doubleshot.

    I was not able to get the milliseconds but only the seconds, however the results should still be pretty accurate. Furthermore to add to the error the game lagged a couple of times maybe skipping maybe 20 arrows or bolts. The assumed max error is therefore 1020/(394-2)=2.602040816. (2.602040816 -2.538071066)÷2.538071066*100=2.52040815%. So the max error should be slightly more than 2.5%


    Bow
    Bab 30 alacrity 0: from 10 seconds to 13:49 totalling 13*60+49-10=819 seconds for 1000 arrows.
    That’s 1.221001221 attacks per second.
    Bab 30 alacrity 25: From 20 seconds to 12:20 totalling 12*60=720 seconds
    1.388888889 attacks per second.

    Light crossbow no dual shoot
    Bab 21 alacrity 0: From 8 seconds to 13:17 totalling 13*60+9=789 seconds. Error 2/789*100=0.253485425.
    1.267427123 attacks per second
    Bab 21 alacrity 15: from 12 to 12:11 totalling 11*60+59=719
    1.390820584 attacks per second.
    Bab 21 alacrity 45: From 13 to 11:38 totalling 11*60+38-13=685.
    1.459854015 attacks per second
    Bab 30 alacrity 0: From 23 to 12:07 totalling 12*60+7-23=704.
    1.420454545 attacks per second.
    Bab 30 alacrity 15: From 15 to 11:54 totalling 11*60+54-15=699
    1.430615165 attacks per second

    Light repeater
    Bab 30 alacrity 20: From 13 to 6:54 totalling 6*60+54-13=401
    2.493765586 attacks per second

    Inquisitive light crossbow
    Bab 21 alacrity 0: From 11 to 7:47 totalling 7*60+47-11=456
    2.192982456 attacks per second
    Bab 21 alacrity 15: From 11 to 7:38 totalling 7*60+38-11=447
    2.237136465 attacks per second
    Bab 21 alacrity 30: From 15 to 6:57 totalling 6*60+57-15=402
    2.487562189 attacks per second
    Bab 21 alacrity 45: From 28 to 7:07 totalling 7*60+7-28=399
    2.506265664 attacks per second

    Bab 30 alacrity 0: From 14 to 7:44 totalling 7*60+30=450
    2.222222222 attacks per second
    Bab 30 alacrity 15: From 13 to 7:43 totalling 7*60+30=450
    2.222222222 attacks per second
    Bab 30 alacrity 30: From 13 to 6:53 totalling 6*60+40=400
    2.50 attacks per second
    Bab 30 alacrity 45: From 14 to 6:48 totalling 6*60+48-14=394
    2.538071066 attacks per second

    I am fully aware that this list is incomplete but i plan on updating it. I just got to tired of doing test in the last life. When i reach lvl 21 on current life i will do more testing.

    If you find this post usefull please give it a tumbs up.

    Also if people would like the videos i can put them up on my server for download.

    EDIT: I started uploading the videos to youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1VUT6vBjA the rest can be found on the same channel
    Last edited by Ultinoob; 04-08-2020 at 05:29 PM.
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  2. #2
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    That's really cool. Thanks for putting that together.
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  3. #3
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    The short version is: don't use bow.

    That aside, thanks for the work.

  4. #4
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Interesting that some of the tests show no difference 0-15 alacrity, 30-45 alacrity.

    Bow Bab 30
    alacrity 0: 1.22 +/- 0.03 attacks per second.
    alacrity 25: 1.39 +/-0.03 attacks per second.

    Light crossbow no dual shoot
    Bab 21
    alacrity 0: 1.27 +/- 0.03 attacks per second
    alacrity 15: 1.39 +/-0.03 attacks per second.
    alacrity 45: 1.46 +/-0.04 attacks per second
    Bab 30
    alacrity 0: 1.42 +/-0.04 attacks per second.
    alacrity 15: 1.43 +/-0.04 attacks per second

    Light repeater
    Bab 30 alacrity 20: 2.49 +/- 0.06

    Inquisitive light crossbow
    Bab 21
    alacrity 0: 2.19 +/- 0.05 attacks per second
    alacrity 15: 2.24 +/- 0.06 attacks per second
    alacrity 30: 2.49 +/- 0.06 attacks per second
    alacrity 45: 2.51 +/- 0.06 attacks per second
    Bab 30
    alacrity 0: 2.22 +/- 0.06 attacks per second
    alacrity 15: 2.22 +/-0.06 attacks per second
    alacrity 30: 2.50 +/- 0.06 attacks per second
    alacrity 45: 2.54 +/-0.06 attacks per second
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Interesting that some of the tests show no difference 0-15 alacrity, 30-45 alacrity.
    Yes at BAB 30 the inquisitive shows no noticeable difference between 0 alacrity and 15. However i can't help but wonder if this is actually due to some lag that has occured in the video. not sure if it did, but this might be the reason.

    There should be a difference when considering 30-45 alacrity but if you include the possible error you are right they might be the same.

    Thanks for making it more readable btw.

    As i said you are more than welcome to get the videos, but i got pretty tired of testing so i am gonna take a break from that.
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultinoob View Post
    Yes at BAB 30 the inquisitive shows no noticeable difference between 0 alacrity and 15. However i can't help but wonder if this is actually due to some lag that has occured in the video. not sure if it did, but this might be the reason.

    There should be a difference when considering 30-45 alacrity but if you include the possible error you are right they might be the same.

    Thanks for making it more readable btw.

    As i said you are more than welcome to get the videos, but i got pretty tired of testing so i am gonna take a break from that.
    Or it might be because the alacrity stats since the nerf are broken beyond all reasoning.

    How do you know how much alacrity you had, what measure did you use?

    The Inquisitive Tier 5 Enhancement Inquisitor's Path is meant to give "+30% Ranged Bonus to Alacrity when using non-repeating crossbows" but this figure is added to Ranged Attack Speed Bonus on the Character Sheet when it should be added to Non-Repeating Crossbow Attack Speed on the "+" panel of the Character Sheet.

    So how did you calculate the Alacrity because the game will not do it for you and it may not be possible to raise Alacrity on Non-Repeating Crossbows to 45 since the Inquisitive nerf. Whether this is a bug, an oversight on the devs part, or a further undocumented nerf to Inquisitives is the question that needs answering.

    So how did you calculate Alacrity?

  7. #7
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Threads like this are the reason why I hate myself for having my Dyscalculia.

    Plus, it makes me so sad that DDO has become a math game.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Valerianus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    Threads like this are the reason why I hate myself for having my Dyscalculia.

    Plus, it makes me so sad that DDO has become a math game.

    i'm grateful that someone takes time to "do the math", because it's not about math at all, it's about understanding how game works and finding bugs.
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  9. #9
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    My quick longbow test: (error is likely, i could only move at 16ms a frame, instead of ~16.7)

    BaB: 25
    RA: 22
    BA: 10 (Shot on the move)
    Auto Attack: 1

    70,73,70,73...

    1/.715

    avg 1.3986

  10. #10
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Default static testing , any # of variables?

    Were you wearing any gear? Also, did you have any enhancements with a % to returning arrows. Just wondering how accurate your numbers are, if you counted for everything.

    What stacks with regard to attack speed with ranged? What feats/items/skills/enhancements stack and which are a waste?

    Rapid Shot
    Rapid Reload
    Haste
    BAB
    Alacrity through items
    Alacrity through enhancements
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    Plus, it makes me so sad that DDO has become a math game.
    Hate to break it to you but D&D has always been a "math game" pretty much since it was created. The entire framework of the game is stats and numbers.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loholt-UK View Post
    Or it might be because the alacrity stats since the nerf are broken beyond all reasoning.

    How do you know how much alacrity you had, what measure did you use?

    The Inquisitive Tier 5 Enhancement Inquisitor's Path is meant to give "+30% Ranged Bonus to Alacrity when using non-repeating crossbows" but this figure is added to Ranged Attack Speed Bonus on the Character Sheet when it should be added to Non-Repeating Crossbow Attack Speed on the "+" panel of the Character Sheet.

    So how did you calculate the Alacrity because the game will not do it for you and it may not be possible to raise Alacrity on Non-Repeating Crossbows to 45 since the Inquisitive nerf. Whether this is a bug, an oversight on the devs part, or a further undocumented nerf to Inquisitives is the question that needs answering.

    So how did you calculate Alacrity?
    Well for the 45 alacirty for non repeating i used to tier 5 in inquisitive for 30 and an item that gave 15. This showed up as a 45 in the character sheet. I did not use haste as it would not last long enough.

    But you are right with regards to inquisitive path.

    To make matters worse i noticed that the "+" for crossbows had a 21% listed. I have this too on my current build, and i am pretty sure this is due to rapid shot and rapid reload. I noticed this too late to take it into account.
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Were you wearing any gear? Also, did you have any enhancements with a % to returning arrows. Just wondering how accurate your numbers are, if you counted for everything.

    What stacks with regard to attack speed with ranged? What feats/items/skills/enhancements stack and which are a waste?

    Rapid Shot
    Rapid Reload
    Haste
    BAB
    Alacrity through items
    Alacrity through enhancements
    Please read the original post. I clearly state i had both rapid shot and rapid reload.

    Rapid Shot
    Rapid Reload
    Haste - no as it would not last long enough
    BAB - Read the op
    Alacrity through items - depends on the number, but usually 0 and 15 for most and 0 and 25 for bows.
    Alacrity through enhancements - Read the previus post
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  14. #14
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultinoob View Post
    Haste - no as it would not last long enough
    You meant haste action boost?

    5 base
    4 kensei cap
    3 fighter tree
    3 dragonborn/orc
    3 epic
    3 item
    1 item (if alch. conservation stacks)
    4 piece prowress filiset

    I prefer Kensei for testing, it is fairly easy to reconfigure, can take feats for each sub styles (=less work), and is relatively "flat" in terms of progression, has good accuracy (to-hit) to reduce AC bias in some tests.

    Edit: For ranged builds i always take Blinding Speed feat (27), it grants the 22% common RA

    Edit2: Was thinking what could be a better test than ammo updates, because ddo alacrity can be really weird. Maybe to add a +1 force ritual to a mastercraft bow, and hit something with high piercing DR and very low AC, finding such target might be..
    Last edited by janave; 04-08-2020 at 01:48 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    You meant haste action boost?

    5 base
    4 kensei cap
    3 fighter tree
    3 dragonborn/orc
    3 epic
    3 item
    1 item (if alch. conservation stacks)
    4 piece prowress filiset

    I prefer Kensei for testing, it is fairly easy to reconfigure, can take feats for each sub styles (=less work), and is relatively "flat" in terms of progression, has good accuracy (to-hit) to reduce AC bias in some tests.

    Edit: For ranged builds i always take Blinding Speed feat (27), it grants the 22% common RA

    Edit2: Was thinking what could be a better test than ammo updates, because ddo alacrity can be really weird. Maybe to add a +1 force ritual to a mastercraft bow, and hit something with high piercing DR and very low AC, finding such target might be..
    I am guessing you are listing the maximum number of action boosts and not sure how this helps. action boosts lasts for 20 seconds and has a 30 seconds cooldown and since the testing lasted min 4 minutes i will still not be able to have action boost haste up all the time... Not sure where you are going with this.

    Blinding speed would be a really good idea, that would increase the alacrity by 7 compared to what i have. You should however be able to extrapolate the data and get a good idea of how much 7 alacrity actually gives in attacks speed.

    I am again not sure how your EDIT2 is a better test?
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Were you wearing any gear? Also, did you have any enhancements with a % to returning arrows.
    I see i missed answering this.

    I did not have anything that give % bonus to returning arrows/bolts and as i was using epic defensive fighting my doubleshot was 0.
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultinoob View Post
    Well for the 45 alacirty for non repeating i used to tier 5 in inquisitive for 30 and an item that gave 15. This showed up as a 45 in the character sheet. I did not use haste as it would not last long enough.

    But you are right with regards to inquisitive path.

    To make matters worse i noticed that the "+" for crossbows had a 21% listed. I have this too on my current build, and i am pretty sure this is due to rapid shot and rapid reload. I noticed this too late to take it into account.
    Your figures would indicate that the issue with Inquisitive Path alacrity isn't a display issue. Thank you for testing, it has been useful and you seem to have uncovered a bug.

  18. #18
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    What class / Enhancement setup did you use for non-Inquisitive testing? Did you have Shot on the Run? Curious how much of a difference SotR + Improved Archer's Focus makes to bows these days.

    Thanks for testing, I know how boring it is to run these simulations.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    What class / Enhancement setup did you use for non-Inquisitive testing? Did you have Shot on the Run? Curious how much of a difference SotR + Improved Archer's Focus makes to bows these days.

    Thanks for testing, I know how boring it is to run these simulations.
    I used this build https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ight=palnatoke

    No i did not use shot on the run. Shot on the runs attack speed to bows only affects... well bows and my build was originally a inquisitive build. For the non dual shooting build but still crossbows non repeating i used inquisitive tree just without the dual shoot.

    If you extrapolate from the data and you end up with 45 attack speed bonus to bows it should take you 640.8 seconds to fire 1000 arrows or an attack speed of 1.561. Considering bows get full doubleshot and other advantages a pure bow build might not be as stupid as it looks upfront.

    I had an idea of a elf 18 wizard build using spellswords and arcane archer. crit multiplier from AA and range from EK 12 seconds after casting spells. furthermore getting +4 dc of enchantment spells from AA could possible make a good charmer. The bow damage should also be ok with this setup. i think it was around 600 extra damage you should do with elemental damage.

    EDIT: Yeah testing is a hassle but somehow i also find it interesting to do math on the game. One of the reasons i enjoy this game so much
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loholt-UK View Post
    Your figures would indicate that the issue with Inquisitive Path alacrity isn't a display issue. Thank you for testing, it has been useful and you seem to have uncovered a bug.
    What bug is that?
    Check out my website for calculating DPS and damage mitigation: http://mmlddo.com

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