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  1. #1
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    Default which do you prefer? Melee Power or Debuffs?

    Hi all, I have been debating on which would provide more raw power to the toon as well as the party. For example, would you trade a 5 piece Prowess set that has 10 sustained MP and 50 for ten seconds on AB for say a 4 piece shattered device set which has +4 Attack/Damage, 3% doublestrike, and debuffs a mob (sometimes) by 10 PRR and 10MRR. I have read that mosters can go negative for PRR, and this looks to be a 9.09% increase in damage taken (if you look at the PRR curve)

    At any rate, I have been talking to somebody and this switch was suggested, and I kinda like it, but would like to get some other points of view.

    Thanks!
    Nico

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickodeamous View Post
    Hi all, I have been debating on which would provide more raw power to the toon as well as the party. For example, would you trade a 5 piece Prowess set that has 10 sustained MP and 50 for ten seconds on AB for say a 4 piece shattered device set which has +4 Attack/Damage, 3% doublestrike, and debuffs a mob (sometimes) by 10 PRR and 10MRR. I have read that mosters can go negative for PRR, and this looks to be a 9.09% increase in damage taken (if you look at the PRR curve)

    At any rate, I have been talking to somebody and this switch was suggested, and I kinda like it, but would like to get some other points of view.

    Thanks!
    Nico
    What's stopping you from having both? You get 11 slots. Anyways, if your group doesn't have a shattered device in its layout it is the better option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    What's stopping you from having both? You get 11 slots. Anyways, if your group doesn't have a shattered device in its layout it is the better option.
    The rest of my slots are filled with raid filigree sets, so i am kinda stuck there.

  4. #4
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    well for the party, shattered device debuff is always handy, but it depends somewhat on your character too as eg. for a barbarian that chunk of extra melee power doesn't just boost your attack power but also your healing effects
    Last edited by FuzzyDuck81; 02-26-2020 at 02:06 PM.
    I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was, now what's it is weird and scary to me.

  5. #5
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickodeamous View Post
    Hi all, I have been debating on which would provide more raw power to the toon as well as the party. For example, would you trade a 5 piece Prowess set that has 10 sustained MP and 50 for ten seconds on AB for say a 4 piece shattered device set which has +4 Attack/Damage, 3% doublestrike, and debuffs a mob (sometimes) by 10 PRR and 10MRR. I have read that mosters can go negative for PRR, and this looks to be a 9.09% increase in damage taken (if you look at the PRR curve)

    At any rate, I have been talking to somebody and this switch was suggested, and I kinda like it, but would like to get some other points of view.

    Thanks!
    Nico




    If the party cares for team play then debuffs. Not sure if they get a stack when more then a single player applies those at the same npc.

    If the party doesnt care for team play then anything that will keep you alive longer. (I humbly think that is not you are asking for)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickodeamous View Post
    Hi all, I have been debating on which would provide more raw power to the toon as well as the party. For example, would you trade a 5 piece Prowess set that has 10 sustained MP and 50 for ten seconds on AB for say a 4 piece shattered device set which has +4 Attack/Damage, 3% doublestrike, and debuffs a mob (sometimes) by 10 PRR and 10MRR. I have read that mosters can go negative for PRR, and this looks to be a 9.09% increase in damage taken (if you look at the PRR curve)

    At any rate, I have been talking to somebody and this switch was suggested, and I kinda like it, but would like to get some other points of view.

    Thanks!
    Nico
    You always want a multiplicative bonus over an additive one. Adding more MP if you already have a lot of MP isnt going to be a substantial increase. But reducing enemy PRR/MRR multiplies everything you do. Unless they have just a buttload of PRR/MRR and you have very little MP, you're going to get a lot more mileage out of the debuff. Plus, as you say, it benefits all the people in the party (unless they also have the same debuff, then of course its wasted )

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    You always want a multiplicative bonus over an additive one. Adding more MP if you already have a lot of MP isnt going to be a substantial increase. But reducing enemy PRR/MRR multiplies everything you do. Unless they have just a buttload of PRR/MRR and you have very little MP, you're going to get a lot more mileage out of the debuff. Plus, as you say, it benefits all the people in the party (unless they also have the same debuff, then of course its wasted )
    This makes sense to me. I just don't know who is running that set and who is not. Plus I guess it would be hard to test this on a ship dummy. I guess I am just trying to just help the party move along faster, so that's kinda where I was looking at shattered device. BUt man, I would hate to waste 4 slots if most people use it anyway.

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    Has anyone figured out/guesstimated the melee proc rate for the Shattered Device PRR debuff?
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  9. #9
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickodeamous View Post
    4 piece shattered device set which has +4 Attack/Damage, 3% doublestrike, and debuffs a mob (sometimes) by 10 PRR and 10MRR. I have read that monsters can go negative for PRR, and this looks to be a 9.09% increase in damage taken (if you look at the PRR curve)
    Negative PRR/MRR stop following the curve and translate 1:1 into a % damage buff; so -30 PRR = all incoming physical damage is dealing 130% of base (otherwise negative PRR/MRR has an exponential gain on the curve, which gets OP too quickly).

    Optimal case for MP, you can fit 29 MP in 4 slots (Sucker Punch/One against Many raid +3x 5 rare MP). If you have ~200 MP, that's ~9.7% DPS gain. -10 PRR would be a 7-10% DPS gain (depending on what other PRR debuffs are being thrown), and it's party-wide.

    If you have more slots open, it's even narrower; 4 slots is ~20 MP (plus two random filigree), and now it's only a ~6.7% DPS gain at 200 MP (and if you have 250 MP it's only a 5.7% gain).

    Assuming the Shattered Device proc rate is solid, it seems like a clear winner for long-term base damage (and competitive even when soloing). That said, if you have a lot of loaded-MP-scaling damage (like Sneak Attack) then MP gains an advantage, and if you have a lot of non-MP-scaling damage (Spellsword, Law Dice, etc) then Shattered Device pulls further ahead.

    I don't know the proc rate though, and MP will help with initial hits which is strong for up-front burst damage (like Adrenaline or Eldritch Tempest) whereas Shattered Device only matters for continued hitting. Like if you're 3-shotting enemies, it's only (at best) 2/3 as effective as listed above. Whaling bosses it definitely looks to pull ahead though.

    TL;DR: as far as my quick math can tell, Shattered Device looks really good as a DPS filigree, even when solo. It's not as good for burst builds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  10. #10
    Community Member Draxis's Avatar
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    Shattered Device is better overall, but that being the case, a lot of people use it. And as others have stated, the MRR/PRR debuff does not stack. Since it's so popular (Non-rare filigrees go for ~150 AS on the ASAH), more than likely someone in your party, if not multiple people, are going to be using shattered device.

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    Shattered Device is best for TWF/unarmed and throwers. Fast attack rates that not only are better applying the debuff, but benefit more from the attack/damage and double strike/shot the set provides. If someone else is applying the debuff, then there are better options, but as you are not running in an organized static, might as well be you. Off chances of overlap loss is trivial to general gains.

    If you are truly concerned about always being min maxed, have a weapon with and without to coordinate with the party to see if it is covered or not. Personally I plan on it being my main set... though still need to farm a proper set as I'm just coming back to the game. *cough*tradesometopinconthelanis*cough*
    Last edited by DrawingGuy; 02-26-2020 at 05:21 PM.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    Shattered Device is best for TWF/unarmed and throwers. Fast attack rates that not only are better applying the debuff, but benefit more from the attack/damage and double strike/shot the set provides. If someone else is applying the debuff, then there are better options, but as you are not running in an organized static, might as well be you. Off chances of overlap loss is trivial to general gains.

    If you are truly concerned about always being min maxed, have a weapon with and with to coordinate with the party to see if it is covered or not. Personally I plan on it being my main set... though still need to farm a proper set as I'm just coming back to the game. *cough*tradesometopinconthelanis*cough*
    Just mailed you a ranged power one, Pinc.

  13. #13
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    I wanted to add that I just put a 4 piece Shattered Device on my at cap VKF assassin last night. If you run the math, it is pretty convincing that Shattered Device is an extremely strong choice, depending of course on proc rate. This is especially true if mobs can go into negative PRR, which devs have confirmed does happen. There is a loss of 15 MP vs. 2 two-piece rare MP sets that give +20 MP total, but the other gains in the Shattered set help to offset that somewhat (not fully). If you need the 5% fort bypass, that helps really close the gap as well. I could comfortably argue that even a modest proc rate puts Shattered Device over the top for DPS, and almost without question on mobs that take more than a few hits. If I was in a static group and knew that another character has Shattered Device and lands hits at a high rate, then I could see going for the straight MP.

    I really like the idea of my rogues applying party-wide debuffs to mobs, such as Assassin's Trick, so for me it's an easy and fun choice. I can't wait to try it out.
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  14. #14
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    I wanted to add that I just put a 4 piece Shattered Device on my at cap VKF assassin last night. If you run the math, it is pretty convincing that Shattered Device is an extremely strong choice, depending of course on proc rate. This is especially true if mobs can go into negative PRR, which devs have confirmed does happen. There is a loss of 15 MP vs. 2 two-piece rare MP sets that give +20 MP total, but the other gains in the Shattered set help to offset that somewhat (not fully). If you need the 5% fort bypass, that helps really close the gap as well. I could comfortably argue that even a modest proc rate puts Shattered Device over the top for DPS, and almost without question on mobs that take more than a few hits. If I was in a static group and knew that another character has Shattered Device and lands hits at a high rate, then I could see going for the straight MP.

    I really like the idea of my rogues applying party-wide debuffs to mobs, such as Assassin's Trick, so for me it's an easy and fun choice. I can't wait to try it out.
    Shattered Device is great until there's multiple of you with it :P

    It's like LGS Dust/Ooze etc, or sources of Vulnerability. Any of them offer massive party-wide DPS buffs (via enemy debuffs) but each is less effective if you have a source already.

    Probably worth picking up a stack of daggers for you, TWF is generally the best way to apply lots of procs and then you can tailor your loadout to what the party is missing
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Shattered Device is great until there's multiple of you with it :P

    It's like LGS Dust/Ooze etc, or sources of Vulnerability. Any of them offer massive party-wide DPS buffs (via enemy debuffs) but each is less effective if you have a source already.

    Probably worth picking up a stack of daggers for you, TWF is generally the best way to apply lots of procs and then you can tailor your loadout to what the party is missing
    If I was flush with sentient XP, I would love to do that, but I'm very light on it so I'm pretty much stuck with what I have. I'd probably make a duplicate minor artifact if I went that way, since it needs only 3k XP for 3 slots, vs. 6k XP on a jewel.

    I tested Shattered Device last night and was very happy with the proc rate and increase in damage (Bruntsmash). It's basically 100% up time with my VKF. As a boss beater for soloers, its a no-brainer.

    Do you know if the PRR debuff from Suffering and the one from the Shattered Device set stack? I am very interested in the answer to this.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
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  16. #16
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    If I was flush with sentient XP, I would love to do that, but I'm very light on it so I'm pretty much stuck with what I have. I'd probably make a duplicate minor artifact if I went that way, since it needs only 3k XP for 3 slots, vs. 6k XP on a jewel.

    I tested Shattered Device last night and was very happy with the proc rate and increase in damage (Bruntsmash). It's basically 100% up time with my VKF. As a boss beater for soloers, its a no-brainer.

    Do you know if the PRR debuff from Suffering and the one from the Shattered Device set stack? I am very interested in the answer to this.
    Stack of daggers being like LGS Dust, Pain, & Suffering - more options than just sentient swaps :P LGS Dust gives -35 PRR/MRR, which is a crazy party damage bonus.

    Suffering & LGS Ooze both use the "Melted Armor" debuff of -10 for 10s (LGS is better for casters as it applies to spell hits, but for a melee they're equivalent). I don't have a Shattered Device set, but if it gives the same debuff it won't stack - examine the monster and see what debuffs are being applied.

    Since the application and duration seem to be the same, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shattered Device uses the same debuff. Probably is 100% proc rate too, if that's the case. Would be a bit disappointing though :/

    If you have Shattered Device already on, would you mind testing (use SD alone and examine, then try SD+Suffering?); otherwise I'll respec and test later
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    If you have Shattered Device already on, would you mind testing (use SD alone and examine, then try SD+Suffering?); otherwise I'll respec and test later
    Oh, I wouldn't mind at all, Khys, and would have done this myself, except for the little issue of me not owning Suffering, or Pain for that matter. My plan to acquire both has been thwarted so far by not being able to get either raid together for over a month now. HC has only made it worse. There have been a few false starts, but we just haven't had the server pops to make it happen (9 PM to midnight Pacific). Just a couple of nights ago we got up to 8 people over 15+ minutes before it fell apart, many going to bed (east coast/central folks). Sadly, I feel myself approaching the 'I give up' moment. What is really bothering me now is that I left Deception (the + SA damage kind) off of my gearset in anticipation of eventually filling it with Pain. So I've left a good chunk of sneak damage on the table (+81 damage to be exact with 190 MP, assuming that I had slotted Deception 14 on my slavers gear, but who's counting)

    I did a few hours worth of Bruntsmash DPS testing with Shattered Device last night (dual Moonslices so that each hit was identical) so I can at least speak to that. It seemed to typically proc every 3-5 seconds on average. Typical VKF, base 15% melee alacrity, ~80% doublestrike, 100% offhand proc.

    EDIT: I should clarify that I have 4 pieces of the set,so the proc I am referring to is the -10 PRR proc.

    EDIT2: More testing, I'm getting a Shattered proc 1 per 27 hits, or roughly 3.6% proc rate. Sample size is about 200 hits total.
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 03-06-2020 at 01:02 AM.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    If you have Shattered Device already on, would you mind testing (use SD alone and examine, then try SD+Suffering?); otherwise I'll respec and test later
    It all works.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 03-05-2020 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    It all works.
    Thanks
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    LGS Dust gives -35 PRR/MRR, which is a crazy party damage bonus.
    That is amazing.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

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