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  1. #1
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Default Turn Undead - Post U45

    Prior to U45 my cleric was maximized for Turn Undead, taking 3 Levels of Paladin to access Extra Turning and Improved Turning in the Knight of the Chalice Enhancement Tree.

    Post U45 I no longer have the KotC enhancements, as 23 points is too much investment into KotC to get the new Improved Turning Enhancement.

    My Turn Undead is far less effective post U45 than it was prior to it. I am scratching my head why.

    Effective Turn Undead
    d20 + Charisma Modifier +2 Eternal Faith = most powerful undead you can turn (For my testing this is a Mob's CR value).

    Hit Dice Turned
    2d6 + Cleric Level + Charisma Modifier + 2 Domain of Death + 4 Seek Eternal Rest + 3 Improved Turning +1 Feat Improved Turning + 6 Cleric Past Life + 4 Eternal Faith + 6 Exalted Angel (Eternal Faith is Not Active in my build at the moment)

    Example Rolls
    Effective Turn Undead
    13 + 17 + 0 = 40
    Actual Rolls
    (Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 5 : you hit foes up to 36 hit dice.
    (Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 18 : you hit foes up to 36 hit dice.
    Actual Rolls - No Charisma Item (+9)
    (Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 9 : you hit foes up to 34 hit dice.
    (Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 1 : you hit foes up to 32 hit dice.
    Actual Rolls with Seek Eternal Rest
    (Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 7 : you hit foes up to 40 hit dice.
    (Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 19 : you hit foes up to 40 hit dice.

    Hit Dice Turned
    7 + 17 + 17 + 2 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 6 + 0 + 6 = 63
    (Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 2 : 59 total hit dice of enemies can be turned.
    (Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 8 : 65 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..

    Actual Rolls with Seek Eternal Rest
    (Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 9 : 70 total hit dice of enemies can be turned.
    (Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 6 : 67 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..

    I have no idea where the extra Hit Die(dice) comes from.
    The real problem is my lack of conviction with my Effective Turn Undead roll as I no longer am good enough to affect the Undead Creatures I encounter, where prior to U45 I used to wipe the walls with those corpses.
    Paladin KotC Improved Turning used to add to the Hit Dice Turned in the form of +3 Levels Higher and +6 additional Hit Dice and should not have modified my Effective Turn Undead roll.

    CR50 Mobs which prior to update 45 I was able to turn and destroy 2 or 3 per Turn attempt now are unaffected by my lack of conviction.

    Am I the only player that has found this?
    Last edited by GoldyGopher; 02-25-2020 at 12:44 PM.

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  2. #2
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    I have a sneaky suspicion I know what happened, but I want to separate the facts, shown above, and my guess shown here.

    Playing around, I mean testing Turn Undead, post 45 has shown that the Effective Turn Undead Roll is not fully attached to the d20 + Charisma Modifier, as a player more concerned about the total number of enemies destroyed than how effective my roll is I have never truly paid attention to that roll. My guess is with the paladin enhancements that roll was "greater" than 50 pre U45. 52 if my assumption is right which allowed me to turn undead creatures at level (Two Toed Tobais AND Wiz King) with rolls in the 80's to 90 for Hit Dice Turned the game was always catching two and sometimes three mobs with a CR of 50.

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  3. #3
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    Effective Turn Undead
    d20 + Charisma Modifier +2 Eternal Faith = most powerful undead you can turn (For my testing this is a Mob's CR value).
    This isn't how that works, the tool tip is horribly inaccurate.

    The D20+charisma roll is checked against a table to get a modifier from -4 to +4 to your turning value, this really devalues charisma is limits what you can do with Turn Undead.

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead

    There are two values, turning power and turning "damage", turning level is based on your effective turning level and turning level bonus's.

    Cleric and Paladin have different ETL's with Paladin's being a few levels behind Cleric. For Cleric your base turning level is your cleric level.

    Without knowing your cleric level and total build I can't determine your effective turning level but it's looking like your late heroics?

    Turning Power
    Turning Level + D20 Bonus + Turning Power Bonus's

    Turning Damage
    Turning Level + 2D6 + Cha Bonus + Damage Bonus's

    This means something like Insightful Faith actually adds +4 to your turning power, +2 to your turning level and another +2 to your maximum dice, and +6 to your turning damage.

    Epic character levels do not count for turning level, which is the real kick in the nuts and why turning undead falls apart in epics. I really wish Divine Crusader added +1 Turning Level per core like how it does caster level.

  4. #4
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    This isn't how that works, the tool tip is horribly inaccurate.

    The D20+charisma roll is checked against a table to get a modifier from -4 to +4 to your turning value, this really devalues charisma is limits what you can do with Turn Undead.

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead

    There are two values, turning power and turning "damage", turning level is based on your effective turning level and turning level bonus's.

    Cleric and Paladin have different ETL's with Paladin's being a few levels behind Cleric. For Cleric your base turning level is your cleric level.

    Without knowing your cleric level and total build I can't determine your effective turning level but it's looking like your late heroics?

    Turning Power
    Turning Level + D20 Bonus + Turning Power Bonus's

    Turning Damage
    Turning Level + 2D6 + Cha Bonus + Damage Bonus's

    This means something like Insightful Faith actually adds +4 to your turning power, +2 to your turning level and another +2 to your maximum dice, and +6 to your turning damage.

    Epic character levels do not count for turning level, which is the real kick in the nuts and why turning undead falls apart in epics. I really wish Divine Crusader added +1 Turning Level per core like how it does caster level.
    My results are still wrong.
    From the example above I should have had a +2 for the roll of 5+13 and a +4 for a roll of 18+13 creating a difference of 2 points, both rolls resulted in identical rolls of 36 hit dice.

    As noted above when facing mobs with a CR value below 36 Turn Undead worked as normal, when facing mobs with a CR Value greater than 36 nothing was turned, regardless of my roll.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    My results are still wrong.
    From the example above I should have had a +2 for the roll of 5+13 and a +4 for a roll of 18+13 creating a difference of 2 points, both rolls resulted in identical rolls of 36 hit dice.

    As noted above when facing mobs with a CR value below 36 Turn Undead worked as normal, when facing mobs with a CR Value greater than 36 nothing was turned, regardless of my roll.
    That's because the roll is just used to determine a small bonus to turning, and that small bonus caps out. With a solid charisma, you can roll a 1 or a 20 and it is the same small bonus of +4. What you need are turning levels. However, between the RL neck at level 10 and the WPM weapon/THTH raid bracers at level 29, there isn't any gear support. Paladin turning levels are paladin level -3, so the paladin enhancements now at tier 4 are no longer a net gain of turning power, although it was only small gain in turning power before for splashing anyways.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 02-26-2020 at 09:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member DRoark's Avatar
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    The huge thing about Turn Undead, is after a few levels, it's wildly useless. At most levels undead die really quickly. They really should dump the "X charges per rest" mechanic,
    and just put every skill that uses Turn on a medium cooldown. Swop the saves over to a DC, and the things that add +Turn attempts, make +DC. It might actually be useful if it's
    an undead-killing version of EIN. Same rules apply, can't snuff out a red-named. Using HD for Turning is vastly behind the times.

    It would be a much needed upgrade to a skill that hasn't had much love for a decade.
    NO MORE MONEY UNTIL IPS NERF RETRACTED... Ranged of the World Unite!

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