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  1. #1
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    Default Alchemist Well Balanced

    Just as an antidote to all the doom and gloom, I would just like to say that my alchemist is having a blast - she has reached level 10 so far.

    I think the class is actually very well balanced, although it may not seem so to those who were expecting another OP TR-train juggernaut like pre-nerf Inquisitives.

    But to those who complain about throwing DPS I would just say this: The class is not intended to be a pure weapon thrower, but to be a thrower of both weapons and alchemical compounds. The combination of throwing, practically free vial damage (4 AP, Maximise and Empower for serious single target damage at least till level 10 - at the cost of 1 Spell Point), and effective AoE damage, makes for a powerful toon, with the added bonus of AoE self (and party) healing.

    Jack of all trades, master of none, but taken as a whole and not trying to concentrate only on one aspect of the build makes for a highly competent class.

    As for those who say it is squishy, why in the name of all that is holy are you getting hit? Break out the sticky glue bombs!

    This is a class that needs to be played reasonably smart, and not just run around with the DDO equivalent of a machine gun.

    And if you are getting killed by traps, take a level of Artificer or Rogue for those. (Artificer is better because you can use a Repeating Crossbow until you get Battalion Brew at level 5, and you can get Evasion as an alchemist bonus feat).

    As a hybrid build with AP fairly evenly distributed between Vistani Knife Fighter, Bombardier and Vile Chemist, you aren't going to be taking the level 20 capstones anyway. You only need 18 levels of Alchemist for all the other goodies. Whether it is worth taking the 2nd level of Artificer for Rune Arm use I have not yet decided. You will lose Alchemist Stone of the Subliminal bonus (+5% Doubleshot and Blur) but some of the higher level Rune Arms have pretty good Potency on them if you want to maintain versality for dealing with mobs immune to your main choice of Elements.

    Of course we may one day get some higher level Alchemical Stones. Epic Alchemical Stone anyone?
    Last edited by Zarkarion; 02-20-2020 at 01:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member lillentle's Avatar
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    I really really really recommend going pure alchemist, the capstone is just far too powerful.

    Do you have a full set of sharn gear? Once you hit 15 swap to caster and you won't feel alchemist is well balanced. Or maybe try at level 12 with ravenloft gear.

    I love the class, and I think making a class more powerful and cool at first and then nerfing it is something that really works well from a marketing and design perspective, getting the new thing and being so so powerful feels fun, but over time it will get kind of boring, and I won't want to play other classes since alchemists will just be blitzing past me, that's the perfect time to nerf.
    Lillentle, the smaller Lentle

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by lillentle View Post
    Do you have a full set of sharn gear? Once you hit 15 swap to caster and you won't feel alchemist is well balanced.
    Which Sharn gear? Which main damage type?

    I am currently running Acid/Poison because there are less Acid-resistant mobs than Poison-resistant, but perhaps after getting the tier 5 bombardier stuff, I should switch to full Poison so all I need is Nullification to cover both Bombardier and Vile Chemist damage.

    In which case I have Silverthread Belt and Necromancer's bracers. What else do I need?
    Last edited by Zarkarion; 02-21-2020 at 01:40 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarkarion View Post
    Which Sharn gear? Which main damage type?

    I am currently running Acid/Poison because there are less Acid-resistant mobs than Poison-resistant, but perhaps after getting the tier 5 bombardier stuff, I should switch to full Poison so all I need is Nullification to cover both Bombardier and Vile Chemist damage.

    In which case I have Silverthread Belt and Necromancer's bracers. What else do I need?
    I would imagine the blackmail/legendary blackmail and skintight gloves/legendary skintight gloves for the set bonuses and stygian wrath for more nul/void lore, insightful intel and sinister chill. Sunken slippers probably wouldnt hurt either. Just speculating.
    Characters:
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarkarion View Post
    Which Sharn gear? Which main damage type?

    I am currently running Acid/Poison because there are less Acid-resistant mobs than Poison-resistant, but perhaps after getting the tier 5 bombardier stuff, I should switch to full Poison so all I need is Nullification to cover both Bombardier and Vile Chemist damage.

    In which case I have Silverthread Belt and Necromancer's bracers. What else do I need?
    I've just hit 18 and you need to keep all 5 spellpowers up for elemental reaction (lvl 6 hellball like spell), since it's only spell that scales well into higher levels. Lvl 3 and 4 fireball variants have low base damage (1d6+3 or 4), and multivial has MCL =10 so those spells get outpaced really fast. I'd highly recomend using pansophic circlet together with profane experiment item set.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaalaos View Post
    I've just hit 18 and you need to keep all 5 spellpowers up for elemental reaction (lvl 6 hellball like spell), since it's only spell that scales well into higher levels. Lvl 3 and 4 fireball variants have low base damage (1d6+3 or 4), and multivial has MCL =10 so those spells get outpaced really fast. I'd highly recomend using pansophic circlet together with profane experiment item set.
    It seems that while Exceptional Universal Spell Power (on Barovian Noble's Regalia) affects Poison damage, the set bonuses for Beacon of Magic (Artifact bonus to Universal Spell Power) and Adherent of the Mists (Profane bonus to Universal Spell Power) do not.

    Presumably these are bugs.

    Can you confirm whether the set bonus (Artifact bonus to Universal Spell Power) on Profane Experiment set affects Poison power?

  7. #7
    Community Member lillentle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarkarion View Post
    Which Sharn gear? Which main damage type?

    I am currently running Acid/Poison because there are less Acid-resistant mobs than Poison-resistant, but perhaps after getting the tier 5 bombardier stuff, I should switch to full Poison so all I need is Nullification to cover both Bombardier and Vile Chemist damage.

    In which case I have Silverthread Belt and Necromancer's bracers. What else do I need?
    I mean casting gear, wild flame/burnscar sash/sharn caster set. Once you can access T5 in bombardier I'd ditch VC all together and put your spare points in apothecary for extra heals.

    I'm unsure what that guy means that the spells don't scale well, they're exceptional. I only played up to R3 though( I normally always run on R1 but R1 was far too easy for an alchemist)
    Lillentle, the smaller Lentle

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarkarion View Post
    Can you confirm whether the set bonus (Artifact bonus to Universal Spell Power) on Profane Experiment set affects Poison power?
    Profane experiments adds to poison spell power, just checked that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lillentle View Post
    I'm unsure what that guy means that the spells don't scale well, they're exceptional. I only played up to R3 though( I normally always run on R1 but R1 was far too easy for an alchemist)
    I've ran the numbers, assuming you are in pyrite reaction, with 41ap in Bombardier your Multivials will do 292 average damage, and Elemental Combination will do 352.5 average damage. Both numbers include max "Burning Ambition" dice and +1 max caster level from Bombardier core, and are before any kind of spell power. In comparison Acid Well does 430 average damage, and Meteor Swarm does 440 average damage, without need to be in "correct" reaction, and without any MCL boosts. On top of that your Elemental Combination can roll "wrong" elements and can roll same element more than once (I've had 2x cold +1x poison damage rolls vs skeletons for example, even rolling 1 "wrong" element is 33% damage loss). And don't forget you need to keep 5 spellpowers/lores high at all times, and constantly refresh pyrite reaction for Elemental Combination to truly shine.

    I do agree those spells are amazing when you get them, don't get me wrong. Lvl 12 as alchemist was propably my best level up in this game, it made me feel incredibly powerful, same for level 15 and 12-16 level range is where this class truly shines, but after that they are outdone by wizards/sorcs in just about every departament. Especially since alchemists don't have a single crowd control or instant kill spell working on reapers.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaalaos View Post
    Profane experiments adds to poison spell power, just checked that..
    Thanks, so perhaps it is just the Ravenloft set bonuses. I will raise a ticket.

  10. #10
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    One more thing, burning ambition dice count as separate hits from main spell from what i've seen, so if enemy has lets say 30 acid res he's gonna cut 30 from every hit of multivial of acid + 30 from every hit of burning ambition and before all that your dmg will be cut by x% depending on how high skull you are in. So there's decent chance you'll hit for close to nothing with your burning ambition in higher R content. And remember you have exactly 0 ways of dealing with reapers outside of pure damage

  11. #11
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    I haven't seen one in level 30 high reaper yet, but in leveling R1-5 they seem strong but not overwhelming. I suspect sorc and wizard to have a higher ceiling, time will tell since I'm not taking mine above 20.
    Last edited by Kaboom2112; 02-21-2020 at 08:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  12. #12
    Community Member lillentle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaalaos View Post
    Profane experiments adds to poison spell power, just checked that.



    I've ran the numbers, assuming you are in pyrite reaction, with 41ap in Bombardier your Multivials will do 292 average damage, and Elemental Combination will do 352.5 average damage. Both numbers include max "Burning Ambition" dice and +1 max caster level from Bombardier core, and are before any kind of spell power. In comparison Acid Well does 430 average damage, and Meteor Swarm does 440 average damage, without need to be in "correct" reaction, and without any MCL boosts. On top of that your Elemental Combination can roll "wrong" elements and can roll same element more than once (I've had 2x cold +1x poison damage rolls vs skeletons for example, even rolling 1 "wrong" element is 33% damage loss). And don't forget you need to keep 5 spellpowers/lores high at all times, and constantly refresh pyrite reaction for Elemental Combination to truly shine.

    I do agree those spells are amazing when you get them, don't get me wrong. Lvl 12 as alchemist was propably my best level up in this game, it made me feel incredibly powerful, same for level 15 and 12-16 level range is where this class truly shines, but after that they are outdone by wizards/sorcs in just about every departament. Especially since alchemists don't have a single crowd control or instant kill spell working on reapers.
    Their healing ability would be the counterpart to a sorcs power, I don't think they would out do a wizard but you have the numbers there saying they do. Not sure what to tell you, my geared up Alchemist felt just as if not more powerful than my Warforged Sorc I ran about a year ago, maybe it's the fact that I run so fast, makes me feel more powerful. Or that I can be the healer for the party at the same time.

    I can't argue with the numbers, but have you ran a geared out Alchemist at 30? You think they pale compared to sorcs and wizards?
    Lillentle, the smaller Lentle

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lillentle View Post
    Their healing ability would be the counterpart to a sorcs power, I don't think they would out do a wizard but you have the numbers there saying they do. Not sure what to tell you, my geared up Alchemist felt just as if not more powerful than my Warforged Sorc I ran about a year ago, maybe it's the fact that I run so fast, makes me feel more powerful. Or that I can be the healer for the party at the same time.

    I can't argue with the numbers, but have you ran a geared out Alchemist at 30? You think they pale compared to sorcs and wizards?
    Not at 30 yet and population is kinda low atm, so getting there will take me some more time, but high heroic level, has me thinking "man it would be a lot easier if i just were wizard". While damage is okay (if your elemental reaction doesn't blank/roll wrong elements) I just can't deal with terrible cast time of self healing abilities, and absolute lack of cc options for reapers. While running Mines of Tethyamar chain at lvl 17 I've repeatedly died there in R1, something that has never happened in my wiz lives. Low level epics are triviall, since ED's kick in and those increase your power two-fold, but that's true for every single build/class out there.

    I will absolutely let you know how it is once i get to cap and have fully pimped out (well comparable to my wizards life) gear. Cold hard math says they are weaker, but perhaps with correct gear it won't be as bad as I expect it to be?

  14. #14
    Community Member darkniteyogi's Avatar
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    starts off weak, but quickly becomes OP when they get multivial. It is the single most powerful offensive spell currently in the game, and beats sorcerer and inquis in terms of dps

  15. #15
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    Default Not balanced *overall* but...

    I will say I was happy with the DPS part of Alch caster. Was not happy that w/o maximum effort to boost DCs trash mobs like Bombadier Bats or Sharn ranger types can be a real pita. Like, throw something through a window frustrating when 105 Conj in L.R1 is not enough to kill a stupid bat that is held in place encased in gold and STILL makes one reflex save after another.

    I took Battalion Brew and SWF line x4 for the EDF hp buff (the range of your bottle spells is unaffected when EDF is on) so was able to melee down the dumb bat. Next alchemist caster I will take Heighten, GSF Conj+Trans and prolly Epic SF for those as well. *HOPE* it makes a difference because wasting so many SP on a trash mob that is essential to advance a quest is just frustrating AF.

    I can live and work around all that though AND alchemist is really fun to play. EXCEPT WHEN IT'S NOT. When it's not it feels like complete garbage. Like when I realized NONE of the Bottle Curatives can be Quickened and trying to heal others or myself in the midst of combat is not just challenging its NEARLY FUTILE.

    Denying us the Quicken meta-magic for Bottle Curatives is HUGE FAILURE. It's a trite and PUNITIVE way to implement balance and every time a heal fails due to the the sluggish animation I can only think to myself "How can they both create a class that is a cool and fun to play yet make it feel like a total pos at the same time?"
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature". Mokune (Guild Leader of Pandora's Box on Khyber), Iquitz, Returning, Thaumat, Ketzerisch, Xhiron, Koanoak et al...

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