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  1. #1
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    Default Vile knife thrower. An alchemists build

    Hey all. First time poster, long time player. As we all know the new alchemists is up and I've seen some builds posted and discussions about how to go about your flask throwing and guzzling way as an alchemist. In traditional D&D I've always been a fan of the class master thrower and had hopes years ago to make a thrower in ddo, but the system here has never been one to really favor throwers, at least not any super strong metas that I've seen or have been interested in trying. When visanti knife fighter came out, i was stoked, but on its own it still didn't bring throwing daggers up to snuff. With the addition of alchemists and the 2 new throwing feats however i see a viable way to make a decent thrower now. I'm in the process of testing it out now, only a first life and lv6, but I think the build I've worked up is pretty solid.

    Vile chemists are essentially the melee/ranged enhancement for alchemists and that and VKF are going to be my primary enhancement trees. I'm sure you're reading this saying, "uh dude, you cant throw knives fast enough to be worth a damn." And your probably right. Looking at vile chemist you so get bonuses to hit and damage with light weapons, same with throwing knives for VKF. Tou do get double shot increases from both enhancements. Not to mention poison coated weapons. Daggers may not throw fast, but stack a bunch of poison on them and Jack up double shot, and they may be slow, but will do substantial damage. With no less then 2 different abilities in vile chemist to break immunities to poison, it's simple enough to lob some poison bikes or poisoned daggers after immunities are broken.

    The chemist i have so far us rocking things hard core. With the thrown daggers he doesn't blow through his SP super fast. If he gets surrounded he has several AOE viles to Mike anyone around him. Alchemists as a class also get plenty of bonus feats to complete this build. With the exception that it's a full on intelligence build, I had to buy a tome to get my dexterity to 13 to meet prerequisites for some of the ranged feats.

    I'll post the feat progression later today. I'll be interested in anyone else's thoughts on this design

  2. #2
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    I've rolled the same, but swapped in rogue 2 for free evasion/traps, and sneak die. Used Asimar for hamp/bond/hands. First couple levels were slow, but by Alc 4 it gets a lot better.

    Challenge is having normal loot access to throwing daggers. Not very many named throwing daggers exist (I had to get to 6 before I could use a chill shard I"ve had for years), and I'm itching to get to 10 where I can use my silver/holy/evil oustider bane throwing dagger i've had on a mule since maybe 2014.

    Devs should fix loot tables for end rewards to Alc's and have them offering throwing daggers instead of the absolutely useless stuff in most quest rewards (really devs, can we do better here?). It's also more than annoying that nearly every named throwing dagger requires a special event to get it. I can't imagine trying to build one if you haven't stashed away some extremely rare thrower loot drops that haven't taken me years to get.

    Ranged kill, then up close burst AOE/glue. Except for the length of Alc casting times, which is like watching a softball player wind up.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 02-17-2020 at 09:04 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I've rolled the same, but swapped in rogue 2 for free evasion/traps, and sneak die. Used Asimar for hamp/bond/hands. First couple levels were slow, but by Alc 4 it gets a lot better.

    Challenge is having normal loot access to throwing daggers. Not very many named throwing daggers exist (I had to get to 6 before I could use a chill shard I"ve had for years), and I'm itching to get to 10 where I can use my silver/holy/evil oustider bane throwing dagger i've had on a mule since maybe 2014.

    Devs should fix loot tables for end rewards to Alc's and have them offering throwing daggers instead of the absolutely useless stuff in most quest rewards (really devs, can we do better here?). It's also more than annoying that nearly every named throwing dagger requires a special event to get it. I can't imagine trying to build one if you haven't stashed away some extremely rare thrower loot drops that haven't taken me years to get.

    Ranged kill, then up close burst AOE/glue. Except for the length of Alc casting times, which is like watching a softball player wind up.


    Yeah, at lv6 is when it seems to take off. Took rapid shot as the level feat. VKF 3rd core gives quickdraw as a free feat. And alchemists 6th gives you multitude of missiles. Im lucky to have some even throwing daggers stashed away, but yea. I can see the problem for new players as finding even generic magic throwing daggers with returning isn't always possible.

  4. #4
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    I'm with ya OP, this type of build looked like the most fun to me as well, and after I finish farming the anniversary event I'm going to roll one up. That said, as a thrower why do an INT build vs. a DEX build. I seem to remember reading you get double shot equal to your DEX mod., this would seem to me to be better than any INT benefit. I understand that if you're doing rogue levels for trapping you need some INT for search, etc., but I was planning on maxing DEX. Am I missing something important?

  5. #5
    Community Member Garix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talam View Post
    I'm with ya OP, this type of build looked like the most fun to me as well, and after I finish farming the anniversary event I'm going to roll one up. That said, as a thrower why do an INT build vs. a DEX build. I seem to remember reading you get double shot equal to your DEX mod., this would seem to me to be better than any INT benefit. I understand that if you're doing rogue levels for trapping you need some INT for search, etc., but I was planning on maxing DEX. Am I missing something important?
    Yeah, you're missing the 4th core of Vile Chemist, More Hidden Blades: "If you have Simple Thrown Expertise, you now use the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity to determine how much Doubleshot you gain from that feat"
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    Ahh... thank you. I knew I must be missing something.

  7. #7
    Community Member rarothrock's Avatar
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    I'm trying a flavor build by building a dart thrower rather than a knife thrower. I'm up to level eight and it has been loads of fun. In the winter festival you can buy midwinter Festival snowballs that do a ton of damage. I have Stacks and stacks of them and I use Fletcher from the falconry tree to make them last longer. Even at level 1 or 2 I was doing 50 points of damage per hit + 150 on a critical. Fantastic damage for that level! The lack of returning throwing darts for higher levels though means I'll probably have to switch to daggers eventually.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Swimms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoticway View Post
    Hey all. First time poster, long time player. As we all know the new alchemists is up and I've seen some builds posted and discussions about how to go about your flask throwing and guzzling way as an alchemist. In traditional D&D I've always been a fan of the class master thrower and had hopes years ago to make a thrower in ddo, but the system here has never been one to really favor throwers, at least not any super strong metas that I've seen or have been interested in trying. When visanti knife fighter came out, i was stoked, but on its own it still didn't bring throwing daggers up to snuff. With the addition of alchemists and the 2 new throwing feats however i see a viable way to make a decent thrower now. I'm in the process of testing it out now, only a first life and lv6, but I think the build I've worked up is pretty solid.

    Vile chemists are essentially the melee/ranged enhancement for alchemists and that and VKF are going to be my primary enhancement trees. I'm sure you're reading this saying, "uh dude, you cant throw knives fast enough to be worth a damn." And your probably right. Looking at vile chemist you so get bonuses to hit and damage with light weapons, same with throwing knives for VKF. Tou do get double shot increases from both enhancements. Not to mention poison coated weapons. Daggers may not throw fast, but stack a bunch of poison on them and Jack up double shot, and they may be slow, but will do substantial damage. With no less then 2 different abilities in vile chemist to break immunities to poison, it's simple enough to lob some poison bikes or poisoned daggers after immunities are broken.

    The chemist i have so far us rocking things hard core. With the thrown daggers he doesn't blow through his SP super fast. If he gets surrounded he has several AOE viles to Mike anyone around him. Alchemists as a class also get plenty of bonus feats to complete this build. With the exception that it's a full on intelligence build, I had to buy a tome to get my dexterity to 13 to meet prerequisites for some of the ranged feats.

    I'll post the feat progression later today. I'll be interested in anyone else's thoughts on this design
    I have one at level 18 right now, going pure alchy. Currently have 39 points in VC, 31 in VKF (4th core in each) and took T5 in VC. Will probably use my last points to take KtA in Harper.

    For gear I am using Sharn Wallwatch along with a crafted Syranian throwing dagger for good/adamantine bypass and a Stygian Wrath in my offhand slotted with a level 12 ruby of nullification. My only gripe is the limited options to contaminate poison resistant mobs outside of casting options (as far as I can tell, poison shot is the only game in town). Damage is decent but I think I will go with a bombardier next life.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talam View Post
    I'm with ya OP, this type of build looked like the most fun to me as well, and after I finish farming the anniversary event I'm going to roll one up. That said, as a thrower why do an INT build vs. a DEX build. I seem to remember reading you get double shot equal to your DEX mod., this would seem to me to be better than any INT benefit. I understand that if you're doing rogue levels for trapping you need some INT for search, etc., but I was planning on maxing DEX. Am I missing something important?
    Alc can make everything INT (attack/hit/reflex/will or fort/dblshot/dcs), and thus dump dex mostly except to qualify for feats. That leaves pts for CON/CHA (I usually max out UMD).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoticway View Post
    I can see the problem for new players as finding even generic magic throwing daggers with returning isn't always possible.
    I don't know that I've ever seen a returning dart drop that wasn't named in my entire DDO span.

    They should really fix that and have random loot returning weapon drops hit more frequently on Alc. It's going to limit the usage of the class for sure.

  11. #11

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    T5 Vile Chemist 15% alacrity is ok in heroic levels, but it's completely worthless in epic levels with Whirling Wrists. Ranged attack speed caps fairly low for throwers, so Whirling Wrists is more than enough, since you'll take it for the 6% doubleshot regardless.

    T5 VKF is disappointing since the activated effects overwrite each other.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Swimms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    T5 Vile Chemist 15% alacrity is ok in heroic levels, but it's completely worthless in epic levels with Whirling Wrists. Ranged attack speed caps fairly low for throwers, so Whirling Wrists is more than enough, since you'll take it for the 6% doubleshot regardless.

    T5 VKF is disappointing since the activated effects overwrite each other.
    This is making me sad about my life choices
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  13. #13

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    Played a Bard knife thrower when Vistani was first released. It was pretty slow early on, you need quite a few feats and enhancements before it starts to get ok. Some of the vistani enhancements weren't working properly then also. I think around L12, thrower started getting a lot easier. Alchemist is probably earlier than that now since you have the poison weapon imbues and multitude of missiles to increase damage. Just having Multitude for some burst damage is a big improvement for throwers at L6, knife thrower really had nothing except for the T5 Vistani buffs before that. I did have to craft some throwing knives though, as somebody else said, a lot of the useful throwing knives are from events...like Spectral Throwing Knives. I had already farmed up L4, 8, 12, etc spectral throwers so I had those plus crafted throwers.

    I thought about doing an Alchemist thrower life to get completionist back, but I decided to do a bombardier instead. Turns out, spell stances are annoying to deal with, so I don't bother most of the time and stay in the same stance. Just makes me wish I was playing a Sorcerer instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isolani View Post
    Played a Bard knife thrower when Vistani was first released. It was pretty slow early on, you need quite a few feats and enhancements before it starts to get ok. Some of the vistani enhancements weren't working properly then also. I think around L12, thrower started getting a lot easier. Alchemist is probably earlier than that now since you have the poison weapon imbues and multitude of missiles to increase damage. Just having Multitude for some burst damage is a big improvement for throwers at L6, knife thrower really had nothing except for the T5 Vistani buffs before that. I did have to craft some throwing knives though, as somebody else said, a lot of the useful throwing knives are from events...like Spectral Throwing Knives. I had already farmed up L4, 8, 12, etc spectral throwers so I had those plus crafted throwers.

    I thought about doing an Alchemist thrower life to get completionist back, but I decided to do a bombardier instead. Turns out, spell stances are annoying to deal with, so I don't bother most of the time and stay in the same stance. Just makes me wish I was playing a Sorcerer instead.
    I'm doing a iconic alc thrower atm. It's terrible if you go t5 vile chemist. It's a bad joke. VKF is much better. I still hate throwers though. Should have gone inquisitive in retrospect.

    Very sad alchemist has terrible 12 second gimmick stance swapping. I can't see anyone playing one voluntarily. It's like punishment.

    Devs no one like 12 second buffs except you.
    Last edited by capsela; 02-17-2020 at 10:43 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isolani View Post
    I thought about doing an Alchemist thrower life to get completionist back, but I decided to do a bombardier instead. Turns out, spell stances are annoying to deal with, so I don't bother most of the time and stay in the same stance. Just makes me wish I was playing a Sorcerer instead.
    Yeah, I feel like multiple stances really hurts alchemist. For one, it means that you have to avoid a third of your options to stay in your preferred stance, and the bonuses for switching don't really make up for the fact that you'll probably be dependent on your stance because of your enhancement tree. Couple that with spells that don't seem to work, have screwy targeting, and the fact that the class features and enhancement trees feel sparse and it's a bit of a let down. Feels almost overbalanced, as if inquisitive backlash made the dev team really make sure alchemist isn't overpowered. I think if the awful projectile path and reliability was fixed, it could be almost passable, but instead we've got a five sp metamagic for that. Kind of should just be standard or a passive feat and not something else to drain more sp from a class that, at least in my experience, can burn through resources quite quickly.

    Of course, only about half of alchemist spells are thrown that way, because heaven forbid we get some more buffs for party members. You can be a healing alchemist or a DPS alchemist, but no support for you. If alchemist spells felt reliable and throwing weapons weren't trash (except for Vistani, because it's a good sign when a class needs a universal tree to be viable, I guess?) because of the lack of decent named and random loot (it seems like returning weights the generation down, and mostly I've found throwing weapons with metal types but weak bonuses, but maybe I'm just unlucky), I could see myself really enjoying alchemist. It has party healing, an interesting (if frustratingly self only at times) spell list, and cool mechanics, but if it's going to turn into hold lmb to chip away at enemies, I might as well go ranger or any inquisitive and get nicer damage. Not benefitting from ranger life damage bonuses is the disappointment on top. A bit of double shot helps, but it's too little, too late.

    Hopefully patches will fix the issues with mechanics, but there's so much that holds them back from functioning like a decent caster and I don't think a somewhat interesting throwing option will save the class from past life fodder. Just look at all the cool toys artificers get, for example, and it just seems kind of gimmicky. Three stances (with inconvenient consequences for using all your spell options) is not a neat enough feature to keep me interested in a class that has a unique, but frankly somewhat tedious play style. It feels like alchemist dropped in need of an enhancement pass; I'm more interested in scrabbling around outside my trees to grab from Vistani or racial bonuses before checking boxes to get some mandatory cores. None of the core 5+ or T5 enhancements really make me say "I can't wait."
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    Feels almost overbalanced, as if inquisitive backlash made the dev team really make sure alchemist isn't overpowered.

    It feels like alchemist dropped in need of an enhancement pass. None of the core 5+ or T5 enhancements really make me say "I can't wait."
    So predictable.

    We all told the devs all this during the preview they didn't listen to any of it.

    They did nerf the poison immunity vulnerability. Thank goodness. VC is so OP.

    I don't even bother with removing poison invulnerability. It does so little damage anyway. Thanks devs

    :P
    Last edited by capsela; 02-17-2020 at 10:52 PM.
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    This is really unfortunate. Oh well, at least I don't have to play this for more than one life.

  18. #18
    Drow Machine Gunner Vasandralov's Avatar
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    I went thrower/Vile. I went the iconic route to miss the ramp-up -- def the right choice.

    I needed another morninglord life so I went 1CLR/2MNK/17ALC

    I picked monk on mistake, in my head, vistani made throwing daggers a center weapon -- not so, only melee daggers. BUT, the Tier 5 Vistani tops all the others, so I don't need the 18 core in VC and could take the 2nd monk life for Evasion -- and the competence crit multiplier doesnt stack with vistanis.

    Its not optimized or anything, but I cruise through low reapers. Offhand is a Nullified of Nullification dagger for the VC Enhancement synergy. My grenades often 1 shot groups of 6 mobs on R1 and R2. I'm using RTS as a weapon, because IPS was nuked from orbit so the fact its still bugged as hell doesn't matter there. Seriously, fix your ish.

    Don't bother with weapon buffs - vistani enhancements actively overwrite them. Its a hot mess, but hey, that's U45 for you.

    Its solid enough to just get the lives overwith and move on. If they made the Throwing knives a center weapon, I'd redo enhancements with monk stances for dodge bonuses.

    All and all, its not horrible, but meh. Too niche. And skipping the low level slog was so worth it.

    Any gear breakout you've seen in the past for a Harper INT build is viable.

    Tactics - use combat abilities to pull, when grouped together throw the grenade. Ensure you keep up haste/displacement. Keep lighting grenades and multitude of missiles on standby for reapers, especially since their stealth HP change (Thats not in the release notes... odd....)

  19. #19
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    So, I'm reading this as: I should respec while I can still do a single feat swap from throwing to dual crossbows.

    P.S. the reaction changing is the worst. It would have been fine if it was just the last two spells you cast but no... you have to blank it out then drop into a new then blank it out and drop back... it's a mess to use a yellow spell (every heal included) on a VC.

  20. #20
    Drow Machine Gunner Vasandralov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    So, I'm reading this as: I should respec while I can still do a single feat swap from throwing to dual crossbows.

    P.S. the reaction changing is the worst. It would have been fine if it was just the last two spells you cast but no... you have to blank it out then drop into a new then blank it out and drop back... it's a mess to use a yellow spell (every heal included) on a VC.
    Yeah, Heal scrolls are still best - I didn't even learn any of the Yellows since I was Orchadium for VC only - everything red and blue. Mixing up the reactions at a minimum gets i tnhe way of my attacks, and I am still unclear on if I need to retoggle enhancement stances to benefit from the PRR

    I'd love to see a DPS comparison. Crossbow has better animation and doesn't straight throw away ranged alacrity like throwing does, but there's so many more ways to twist to-hit and damage on a thrower.

    On top of that at 20, epic noxious fang benefits directly from the nullification spell-power, yeah?

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