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  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Default Why is alchemist punished for healing?

    Alchemist, in general, is plagued by really slow casting speeds, most especially the curative admixtures. It's utterly unfeasible to heal people quickly as an alchemist, and it defeats the point of them having one of only five true support trees in the game (apothecary, radiant, spellsinger, beacon, and mastermaker). In dangerous situations, by the time you throw your healing potion the party member is dead. I understand the spell point costs are low (same as single target cure wounds spells) but the cast time makes alchemist a very poor choice for a healer.

    This has to be changed; between the very slow cast times, bottle travel time, and propensity for completely missing the target due to obstacles (including other players), the casting speeds for curatives have to be increased, or, at the very least, allow them to use quicken.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    Maybe balance dictated they shouldn't be expected to heal as well as a Cleric?

  3. #3
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    Maybe balance dictated they shouldn't be expected to heal as well as a Cleric?
    A cleric has maybe a quarter the casting time to cast mass cures, more base spell points to handle the increased costs, no spell travel time, and isn't impeded by obstacles (including other players, which is a real danger). This isn't even remotely balanced. I don't expect the numbers to be the same, but in terms of speed, alchemist is way far behind every other healer.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    The casting time on Alchemist is a deal breaker for me at this point. It's not functional and its not fun. The whole flavor of my throwing Alch is: prepared, intelligent, fast thrower. Yet when I throw a pot I suddenly go into immersion breaking slow motion that does not pass basic smell test for believability for a normal speed person much less for my fast throwing knife chucker.
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  5. #5
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    The casting time on Alchemist is a deal breaker for me at this point. It's not functional and its not fun. The whole flavor of my throwing Alch is: prepared, intelligent, fast thrower. Yet when I throw a pot I suddenly go into immersion breaking slow motion that does not pass basic smell test for believability for a normal speed person much less for my fast throwing knife chucker.
    Yes, functionality seems to be the main issue. It's not practical or functional to have a 2 second windup for a cure spell. This isn't WoW.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    I say hammer them with the flavor hammer too! The animation looks ridiiiiculous.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Alchemist, in general, is plagued by really slow casting speeds, most especially the curative admixtures. It's utterly unfeasible to heal people quickly as an alchemist, and it defeats the point of them having one of only five true support trees in the game (apothecary, radiant, spellsinger, beacon, and mastermaker). In dangerous situations, by the time you throw your healing potion the party member is dead. I understand the spell point costs are low (same as single target cure wounds spells) but the cast time makes alchemist a very poor choice for a healer.

    This has to be changed; between the very slow cast times, bottle travel time, and propensity for completely missing the target due to obstacles (including other players), the casting speeds for curatives have to be increased, or, at the very least, allow them to use quicken.
    I really like the smash bottle at your feet animation that alchemists have. I would love for there to be 2 versions of the spell, one is a foot smash (or potion drink) and the other is the thrown animation. Also none of the heal potion tosses are using the new animation, they are all using the old artificer one. It makes for some slow and not fun healing. In addition using quicken/accelerate has no effect, it doesn’t change anything!

  8. #8
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    Maybe balance dictated they shouldn't be expected to heal as well as a Cleric?
    Then why waste the time to crate a healing tree for the alchemist in the first place. Waste of time and limited resources
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  9. #9
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    It is good to hear that it is more balanced compared to certain class/universal trees in the past.

    What do you think about Alchemist vs Artificer about the functionality of the flasks/fuse ?

    Do you think a Rogue/Alchemist/Artificer work well for ranged/caster/summoner/alchemical traps combo roleplay by swapping enhancements or would it turn out a jack of no trades, master of none ?
    Last edited by Kutalp; 02-16-2020 at 11:39 AM.

  10. #10
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Alchemist should have been an artificer tree, singular, and not it's own class. Cherry-pick the decent elements from the three trees Alchy comes with into one and get rid of the whole nonsensical color-wheel foofaraw.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Alchemist should have been an artificer tree, singular, and not it's own class. Cherry-pick the decent elements from the three trees Alchy comes with into one and get rid of the whole nonsensical color-wheel foofaraw.



    There are points I agree with you. I suggested something similar which faded away through months. Not much support aswell.

    New enhancement trees that can be applied to classes instead of universal trees. So the class balance would not be ruined; meanwhile rogues could get casting or warrior specs.

    Fighters could get roguish or caster specs through allready existing D&D Subclasses developed as Class specific applicaitons. This would be as if multiclassing by swapping enhancement trees but keeping the base class same. Meanwhile not restricted to a single type of weapon; not bursting the style to the extremes.

    Buy the new tree, apply that to your base class. You have a brand new class mechanics over the basic class and feats; since it is not universal it does not ruin team up mechanics while letting people soloor team with various of new ways.
    Last edited by Kutalp; 02-16-2020 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    I really like the smash bottle at your feet animation that alchemists have. I would love for there to be 2 versions of the spell, one is a foot smash (or potion drink) and the other is the thrown animation. Also none of the heal potion tosses are using the new animation, they are all using the old artificer one. It makes for some slow and not fun healing. In addition using quicken/accelerate has no effect, it doesn’t change anything!
    Yeah, some of the point black aoe's are nice (although strange for a class that is always in robes unless you spend feats/enhancements on armor/arcane spell failure). Accelerate works on some spells, but it doesn't seem to do much on curative admixtures. Quicken can't be used on them at all: making alchemist vulnerable to high damage hits while healing, since they can be interrupted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    Then why waste the time to crate a healing tree for the alchemist in the first place. Waste of time and limited resources
    Exactly. If they're given an actual support/healer tree, then why is their healing so slow and lackluster? I've been saying this since lammania.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kutalp View Post
    It is good to hear that it is more balanced compared to certain class/universal trees in the past.

    What do you think about Alchemist vs Artificer about the functionality of the flasks/fuse ?

    Do you think a Rogue/Alchemist/Artificer work well for ranged/caster/summoner/alchemical traps combo roleplay by swapping enhancements or would it turn out a jack of no trades, master of none ?
    Artificer just uses bottles for the occasional healing. The majority of alchemist spells are bottles, so the functionality greatly affects them compared to artificers.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Alot of things at live game are actually based on Rogue class

    One of the most confusing things about the game is,

    Thief, Scout, Swashbuckler(Not bard), Inquisitive(Rogue), Arcane trickster(Not Gnome) are original Rogue subclasses; giving more power to Rogue gameplay; not specific to any type of weapon; not any non rogue class or a race. [Gnome, Rogue/Swashbuckler/Inquisitive = Gnome Rogue]

    Also very important bonuses such as Booming blade, Minor illusion, Courtier, Charlatan, Faction agent, Urchin, Bounty hunter, Skilled, Skulker, Criminal, Inspiring leader bonuses. Stealth, perception, persuasion, Decption, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation and Spell absorbtion(also elemental and rogue bonus) bonuses.

    Additionally many Dragonmark (Passage, Storm, Warding, Healing, Finding, Making) and secondary dragonmark bonuses originally related to Rogue class.


    Some fellow posters may remeber an old post named 'Everbody loves rogues'



    Long story short is the Alchemist really being punished about healing or... ?
    Last edited by Kutalp; 02-16-2020 at 01:36 PM.

  14. #14
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutalp View Post
    Long story short is the Alchemist really being punished about healing or... ?
    I think the dev's intention was to make alchemists strong but slow: moderate spell point costs, wildly varying cooldowns, slow casting, but strong aoe. That works for offense, but for healing it's severely detrimental and people die because of it.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    I think the dev's intention was to make alchemists strong but slow: moderate spell point costs, wildly varying cooldowns, slow casting, but strong aoe. That works for offense, but for healing it's severely detrimental and people die because of it.



    What you mention is only a small part of a very big painting.


    Many excuses such as balance and roles and character levels etc...I really do not get the point anymore.

    There re classes, trees , enhancements, feats, but also mechanics that insanely dominate and ruin the entire balance, which is considered balanced. Meanwhile there are simple things that many classes need to have just to survive and have a quality gameplay, which are avoided and called to be unbalanced and overpowered if they were given.

    All these makes no sense at all...Source of stress and boredom and ends ups as shorter gaming sessions, longer forum posting sessions in the end.


    For the alchemist part, it is fairly new and for sale; its mechanics may chnage in near future...
    Last edited by Kutalp; 02-17-2020 at 01:14 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutalp View Post
    For the alchemist part, it is fairly new and for sale; its mechanics may chnage in near future...
    The more I look at it, the more the class looks mechanically flawed.

    - The 'strong but slow' philosophy works fine for damage, but not for healing. It's severely detrimental to healing where speed is the difference between survival and a party wipe.

    - The two best CC spells Alchemist has (mass flesh to gold and flash freeze) must be used in melee range. Why is this so on a class that is bound to robes and quite fragile in melee combat? Also, seeing as the majority of crowd control spells are gildleaf, that makes them defensively weaker by going into melee range without having the added protection of being in the orchidium reaction stance for PRR (instead of verdanite, for extra DC's). This defies all logic.

    - Alchemists have good healing numbers, but they're the only class that can be interrupted while healing and they're already slow at casting admixtures, to begin with. They're also the most fragile of healers; clerics, favored souls, and druids have shield and armor options and higher HP, bards have access to light and medium armor and a score of defensive songs, and artificers that are support-minded are tanky by default.


    How can this be remedied?
    - I don't see why they shouldn't be able to quicken the curatives. You could perhaps tie this to tier 5 in the apothecary tree, to prevent any kind of alleged abuse, since offensively-minded alchemists are definitely going to want tier 5 in bombardier. That would solve the major support issue. I don't really see this as much of a problem because, as I've recently found out, trying to run and heal as an alchemist when you're in trouble is quite difficult given the not-so-reliant behavior of potion tossing. It drops alchemist's survivable down yet another notch.

    - I also don't see why flash freeze or flesh to gold can't be ranged. The class is going to be fragile, regardless. If sorcerers and wizards can get armor and shield options and still retain high damage and strong, faster, ranged crowd control then why is alchemist still penalized for it? You can't say 'well alchemists can heal' because arcanes can easily go warforged and self heal or be a pale master and self heal; that's a cop-out answer. Forcing a fragile class to go right in to the center of battle in order to properly crowd control for the party is illogical.
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  17. #17
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    I think, ultimately, the problem with alchemist is that most of their spells are just kind of tedious to use. Long travel times, long casting animations, unreliable over long distances, poor hit detection when there's any latency, high SP costs, and self restrictions on most buffs make alchemist pretty uninteresting to play. Sure, the buffs are nice, but what exactly am I buffing on alchemist? My throwing weapons that still don't compare to inquisitive? My spells that work about half as well as sorcerer/cleric/FvS spells? I don't think alchemists are the worst class to play, but some of the classes that they beat are ones that are desperately in need of an update. But, sticking specifically to healing spells, it feels like Alchemist really needs Accelerate and Quicken to actually cast reasonably (I assume, I haven't tested Accelerate yet but I don't like the idea of five more SP to fix the slow, tedious projectile flight speeds and punishing projectile arcs). I don't think you have to make Alchemist spells hitscan or anything, but it would be nice if they at least traveled as fast as, say, ray of frost. Sure, the potions have Hitman Briefcase Homing Technology now, but if half the targets are dead before my AoE even reaches the right zip code then what's the point? Sure, my healing is a nice powerful AoE, but it won't reach the idiot zerging off before they get deleted by a reaper. Actually, I think that Apothecary is actually the second least hurt Alchemist tree, because you get some nice SLAs that really let you open up with metamagics and keep the cost down, such as the tier 1 Minor Wounds admixture multi-selector and the core 3 Cure Serious Wounds admixture, both of which are pretty easy to get. Vile Chemist doesn't really care about throwing potions unless you go full poison throwing, but honestly I think it's better to just focus on throwing weapons, as meh as they are, which I think says something about how garbage Alchemist spells are.

    It's not the spells themselves, in terms of effectiveness and power, it's meaningfully using them. They're slow. They take a long time to cast. Some spells burn a ton of SP for the trade off of being AoE (which is painful for soloing) and others are only self target (which is painful for grouping). The buffs are decent, but since you can only use them on Alchemists, the question is if they're worth taking with the build you get with Alchemist levels, and the answer is usually that it would be better to build another class. It's like Alchemist just isn't good at anything. Their spells can't compete, they're built around throwing weapons which has always been a pretty bad option (outside some shuriken builds that Alchemist doesn't really synergize with), and they're tied for the squishiest class in the game with Wizard, but even Wizards get Eldritch Knight. They don't get as many feats as Artificer, nor pets, nor traps/locks, nor an exotic weapon proficiency. They don't have the SP or raw nuking potential of sorcerer (and even if they did, their spells would be lackluster). They probably don't quite match cleric/FvS for healing (though I do like admixtures, they just have so many mechanical problems with delivery that they're too likely to fail in a moment of need). They don't get hardly any party support like Bards do. (Bards even get mostly unique buff types, as passive bonuses, but apparently alchemical bonuses would be too much to share with your friends, I guess?) They do get a reaction system that basically serves as a minor buff to whatever tree you picked, but switching feels clumsy and probably negates the bonuses your build depends on that are only active when you're in the appropriate reaction, and the whole reaction system often operates at the cost of closing off a third of your spell options because they're the wrong color. Their bonus feats aren't garbage, but five bonus feats and a save bonus (moving from Dex to Int, which is only mildly helpful for a cloth armor class in my opinion, not that AC will matter by level 5 anyway) are not enough to save them from being mostly disadvantaged compared to other classes. And, ultimately, it's the mechanical and structural things that hurt Alchemists. The spell issues listed above. The fact that throwing weapons have basically no named loot and are barely competitive (to be generous) from a mechanical standpoint compared to other weapon types is just a nail in the coffin, depriving Alchemists of any sort of competitive damage potential. Alchemists can't heal as well as other healers, can't DPS as well as other damage dealers, can't tank at all, and have almost no party utility. What are Alchemists supposed to do? They don't even mix healing and DPS well because of their reaction system and being tied to the worst weapon group in the game. It's just unfortunate because at the end of the day Alchemists have no place in the meta because they can't do anything particularly well. I can't see anyone wanting to play Alchemist at 30, just because it would be almost impossible to actually clear content on any difficulty with a three second healing delay, an SP pool that depletes in about four minutes of combat, and a relatively slow, low damage simple weapon as their saving grace.

    It's painful to play Alchemist because it's like they were designed not to be convenient. If you could dance between reactions without nerfing yourself, if your spells were faster to hit and didn't eat a tenth of your SP on metamagics to make them manageable, if throwing weapons weren't underperforming so abysmally even with the new bonuses, it would be a really fun class to play. It has some unique flair and systems, and I want to love it. but I don't. I hate seeing my potions disappear two inches short of a target because whoops you were out of range. I hate having great buffs that do nothing for me because I barely benefit from their effect as Alchemist and I can't put them on friends. I hate seeing my SP bar empty half way through a quest because everything is assumed to be AoE. I especially hate the bugs and glitches, but those are hopefully going to get fixed. It just feels like Alchemist is unfinished, unloved, and unplayable as is. I'm probably going to finish my life for Completionist and shelf Alchemist until it stops being so unappealing.
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  18. #18
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    I don't have Alchemist yet, but is the healing worse than Artificer? I liked playing healer as an Artificer. Curative admixtures need getting used to, but the trick is to "toss early and toss often". The spells and particularly SLAs are really cheap, it does not matter if you overheal. Pick a recipient and don't stop tossing. Use cocoon for panic heals.

  19. #19
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    The devs have, for a while now, seemed in complete denial that DDO has become an ARPG and combat is not the slow, deliberate, methodical, monster-by-monster fight they seem to think it is.

    I mean seriously, 3s wait time for Archers Focus?

  20. #20
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    I don't have Alchemist yet, but is the healing worse than Artificer? I liked playing healer as an Artificer. Curative admixtures need getting used to, but the trick is to "toss early and toss often". The spells and particularly SLAs are really cheap, it does not matter if you overheal. Pick a recipient and don't stop tossing. Use cocoon for panic heals.
    They're better than artificers at using curatives, simply because they're more adapted to it and gain bonuses to curatives, where artificer is split between repair and positive healing. The artificer doesn't really make for a good primary healer unless your party is made up entirely of warforged, and the artificer's support tree is more about damage mitigation than actual healing.

    The issue with pro-active healing is it's either going to work or it's going to be a waste of resources. Druids are effective pro-active healers because they can toss a vigor or regenerate spell on somebody and that spell will take effect every couple seconds for a few moments without needing the druid's attention. Alchemists would have to constantly toss curative admixtures to do this, and that would get expensive very quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The devs have, for a while now, seemed in complete denial that DDO has become an ARPG and combat is not the slow, deliberate, methodical, monster-by-monster fight they seem to think it is.

    I mean seriously, 3s wait time for Archers Focus?
    That's part of the issue: DDO is happening in real time and often requires split second decisions. Alchemist is almost the opposite of that because almost every action they take requires advanced planning and requires more attention given to placement since bottles have a tendency to not hit their target or can be blocked by other targets. A cleric, for example, knows that every time their cure spell is going to hit its intended target (it might be a bit too late or the the target might move behind an obstacle, but that's real time combat for you). An alchemist has to make sure nothing is in the way of their target, because their curative admixture can easily hit that big half orc barbarian in front of you rather than the paladin you were aiming at. Given the general slowness of alchemist spells, that's a huge disadvantage.
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