A Change - Compare/Contrast

[ThomasHunter]

I currently have a 2WF Vistani Dagger build that is 2 Monk and 18 FvS. This is a second life toon. However, it is generally quite awesome and fun to play. I swing fast and do a fair amount of damage. Since the latest ED changes, I now run in Grandmaster and I think that has been really fun and positive. I have the RL raid daggers and would like to stay with that.

However, I am itching to change him to a pure Alchemist Vistani 2WF Dagger build. I am curious to know what I gain and lose. I'm not too familiar with all of the various things going on with Alchemist yet. I do know that I rarely cast any spells currently and that changing would probably have me throwing potions around in between fighting. Seems fun. However, would it be worthwhile?

Initial thoughts:

- AC lose - currently 113
- Same - Vistani tier 5 - probably stay in Vistani and currently have 41 points there
- Lose? - PRR is currently 143 in robes, but I'm guessing that won't be possible with Alchemist? I'm really unsure!
- Lose - Ameliorating Strike - I'm at 29 points in War Soul. I'm guessing...
- Gain - Vile Alchemist - ...that is replaced with Vile Chemist.
- Lose - Healing Hands as I am currently an Aasimar. What race would work well? Maybe just straight up human? Extra feat for potentially Empower Healing and go into Apothecary some for healing?
- Gain - better CC and damage spells? This is just an initial guess. Also thinking that the poison damage from VC is good.

I currently am at 112 Melee Power. I have 54 Con and 65 WIS. I'm guessing that the WIS becomes a dump and swaps with INT. I currently have a good amount of HP. Sitting at 1668 in Epic Defensive Fighting. Turning that off, I still have 1335 which is decent. I probably can't run that Feat anymore if I want to go Alchemist. So:

- Lose - HP. it's a d4 class which is rough and I can't (I don't think) use Epic Defensive Fighting.

Any help and insights would be appreciated. Think this change is worthwhile? Anything that you have learned?

Thank you,
Taleisin

[talanh133]

I currently have a 2WF Vistani Dagger build that is 2 Monk and 18 FvS. This is a second life toon. However, it is generally quite awesome and fun to play. I swing fast and do a fair amount of damage. Since the latest ED changes, I now run in Grandmaster and I think that has been really fun and positive. I have the RL raid daggers and would like to stay with that.

However, I am itching to change him to a pure Alchemist Vistani 2WF Dagger build. I am curious to know what I gain and lose. I'm not too familiar with all of the various things going on with Alchemist yet. I do know that I rarely cast any spells currently and that changing would probably have me throwing potions around in between fighting. Seems fun. However, would it be worthwhile?

Initial thoughts:

- AC lose - currently 113
- Same - Vistani tier 5 - probably stay in Vistani and currently have 41 points there
- Lose? - PRR is currently 143 in robes, but I'm guessing that won't be possible with Alchemist? I'm really unsure!
- Lose - Ameliorating Strike - I'm at 29 points in War Soul. I'm guessing...
- Gain - Vile Alchemist - ...that is replaced with Vile Chemist.
- Lose - Healing Hands as I am currently an Aasimar. What race would work well? Maybe just straight up human? Extra feat for potentially Empower Healing and go into Apothecary some for healing?
- Gain - better CC and damage spells? This is just an initial guess. Also thinking that the poison damage from VC is good.

I currently am at 112 Melee Power. I have 54 Con and 65 WIS. I'm guessing that the WIS becomes a dump and swaps with INT. I currently have a good amount of HP. Sitting at 1668 in Epic Defensive Fighting. Turning that off, I still have 1335 which is decent. I probably can't run that Feat anymore if I want to go Alchemist. So:

- Lose - HP. it's a d4 class which is rough and I can't (I don't think) use Epic Defensive Fighting.

Any help and insights would be appreciated. Think this change is worthwhile? Anything that you have learned?

Thank you,
Taleisin

Okay! I've been playing around with it. Only level 25, and running a knife thrower rather than melee, but I'll answer what I can.

-You will definitely lose some AC. No doubt there.
-At 25 my standing PRR is 38. If I'm in Orchidium(purple, which is what gives you full BAB and will be your main reaction to be in), it jumps up to 93 PRR. In Orchidium with augment armor it's 100 PRR. Now, here's where things get tricky. IF you're good at dancing in and out of Orchidium(which isn't the easiest with the way things are right now, and would mean a bit of a hit to your damage as you lose BAB when you drop out of it) you can run the Oricidium reaction spike. Which for 12 seconds upon first swapping into Orchidium increases your PRR massively. Mine jumps up to 190 PRR while the spike is going. And all that is without any PRR boosting items. So your PRR will drop some for basic running around, but will spike higher otherwise.
-You will not have anything like Ameliorating Strike. And in fact, you'll take an even bigger hit than that. You can splash apothecary for some additional healing SLAs and all, but right now the restoration concoctions we get? They don't work when trying to cure yourself.
-Vile chemist isn't a bad tree, but there are some issues. Personally, I would like to try it with a bastard sword for strikethrough, which would let me occasionally spread my poison strike on multiple targets to make multiple poison immune targets vulnerable to poison. But it should be doable regardless.
-Race-wise... Aasimir isn't terrible anyway. Healing hands is just a nice racial ability that no class can go wrong with. Vile Chemist Alchemists especially, since your healing spells as an alchemist are all gildleaf which will drop you out of Orchidium reaction. Human is never a bad choice. A lot of folk are going drow. I'm running in deep gnome and it's not terrible, but it doesn't really bring anything to alch besides the racial int.
-The poison damage isn't bad, but I've not found anything outside of the alchemist trees, and potency, that boost poison spellpower just yet. Which keeps it from being quite as good as the EK weapon imbues, for example. Spells are decent. My poison spells hit decently hard but, again, no poison spellpower items to boost them further. There is decent CC in the class, and the DCs you'll want to focus on are transmutation and conjuration. Particularly one that is, unfortunately, a gildleaf spell(Which again drops you out of Orchidium) is flesh to gold, mass. Which is basically an AoE version of Flesh to Stone, albeit with a lower duration(20sec+12sec per level, with saves every 12sec instead of 24). So that's nice. You can also frog a single target, confuse, etc. There's a fair amount of CC.

Wis is definitely a dump stat. Yes, your worst save is your will save, but you can take Insightful Courage as a class feat during one of your levels(Level 8 alch or higher) and use your int mod for will saves rather than wis mod. Sure it's a choice between that and using your int mod for fort but as a d4 hit die class you'll want a high constitution anyway, and your will save is your lowest, so boosting it tends to be better. Your Melee Power might see a change, depending on how much of it comes from monk/fvs trees and how much comes from equipment and all. Even the vile chemist tree doesn't give any MP. Your HP will undoubtedly see a hit, though. As for Epic Defensive Fighting...

There is no reason you can't run Epic Defensive Fighting, if you're going to be in melee most the time. It doesn't stop you from casting spells, just makes your spells melee range. Which if you're fighting in melee anyway isn't that big a problem. Especially since you can just turn it off when you need to cast a spell at range. Treat it as playing an EK Wizard. Your spells are all touch spells at that point.


All of that said... Alchemist right now is finicky and bug-laden. Your restos don't work on yourself, your melt lock spell(knock equivilant) doesn't work on 90% of the locks in game. Not because the rolls are too low or something, but because it can't actually hit them. There's no poison spellpower items, that I know of, yet. And your reaction swapping is clunky. That last one is the hardest to deal with. I'd love to be able to easily swap between pyrite, for the pyrite burst buff increasing my SP by 10+6xAlchemist level for 12 seconds, which would really nicely boost my poison SP for more damage and all. But it's too clunky to do that then swap back to Orichidium. Since instead of casting a yellow spell>Red spell>blue spell to do so you have to cast a yellow spell>red spell>blue spell>red spell. Slows things down and as a thrower I'm not sure the loss of BAB for the duration of that is worth the increase in SP. For melee it probably would be, because swapping back to Orichidium gets you that nice, hefty PRR boost. As a thrower though, if I'm getting hit by things that are reduced by PRR I'm failing at kiting. Further, when you swap reactions the 12 buff for first entering that reaction doesn't linger if you leave said reaction. Which... Feels bad.

I would suggest that you try it out on an alt. Maybe roll up an Aasimar scourge, use a +1 heart and give that a shot. You won't have all your PL bonuses and gear and whatnot, but it should give you a basic idea. Otherwise, if none of what I've said is a dealbreaker for you, give it a shot! If some of what I said is, then wait until they bug fix the class.

[rabidfox]

There's no poison spellpower items, that I know of, yet.

They added poison spellpower onto all of the gear with negative spell power a while back. So any of the gear that's good for PM wizard is good an alchemist.

[talanh133]

They added poison spellpower onto all of the gear with negative spell power a while back. So any of the gear that's good for PM wizard is good an alchemist.

Ah! I was unaware of that. So that complaint is gone. And I need to grab some Neg SP gear to boost my poison SP. Others still stand, though.

[lLobo]

Honestly you are thinking about doing a melee alchemist, I'd recommend considering EK.
Wiz has better spells for utility and buffs, while EK/PM has better immunities, AoE and bonus HP. You get more doublestrike and spellpower from EK and can self-heal with LDA/DA and NEB. You can even go medium armor with EK for some extra defense.

Vile Chemist feels like it will work better for a ranged (VKF thrower) character. You have some good PRR if you can work your reactions right (very clunky ATM) but you lack AC and good melee AoE moves (both on VC and VKF). And although (at least at lower levels) all your CC seem to be melee range, if you are going to CC and kill things with single target dmg, feels like its better to go thrower to take use of the Multitude of Missiles (Alchemist) and Whirling Blades (VKF)...