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  1. #81
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    My barbarian used to take down the lame ship target dummy in about 10 seconds, now it is more like 16 (not max level). I think the problem is the new 3x modifier doesn't keep up with glancing blows damage. I believe the biggest problem is some classes do not get inherent doublestrike within their enhancements, which can leave them behind other classes like monk/rogue using a quarterstaff that do have class specific doublestrike. The benefit of the new stat formula scales better to doublestrike, making a class with access to near 40% more doublestrike with a quarterstaff seem awesome- while those with less or none (Barbarian) but extra strength it seems quite underwhelming.
    Last edited by Reesi; 02-18-2020 at 08:50 PM. Reason: I can't typo anything right the first time

  2. #82
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reesi View Post
    My barbarian used to take down the lame ship target dummy in about 10 seconds, now it is more like 16 (not max level). I think the biggest problem is the new 3x modifier doesn't keep up with glancing blows damage. I believe the biggest problem is some classes do not get inherent doublestrike within their enhancements, which can leave them behind other classes like monk/rogue using a quarterstaff that do have class specific doublestrike. The benefit of the new stat formula scales better to doublestrike, making a class with access to near 40% more doublestrike with a quarterstaff seem awesome- while those with less or none (Barbarian) but extra strength it seems quite underwhelming.
    I agree, though I was waiting to get to cap to test it before I posted. Need more DS available to barbs.
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  3. #83
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Hello! Wanted to check in now that we're back in office after the weekend.

    We ran some tests to make sure what we think is going on in THF is actually happening, and generally speaking it is. (For the sake of discussion, gonna refer to the two animation styles as "Greatsword" and "Greataxe" - it applies for all weapons that share animations with those weapons).

    1) The Timing
    The timing of the detect relative to the start of the animation on the new THF (both Greatsword- and Greataxe-animations) is intentionally later than the old ones were. That said, we've determined that it's landing later than it should, and for next patch we've moved the detect up to a little earlier in the four basic attack animations (and two mobile basic attack animations) in both of those styles. Having tested it internally, it feels snappier; we'll see how that fares on Live before determining if we need to make further changes.

    2) The Range
    We heard quite a few remarks about the range of THF being significantly smaller in U45 relative to U44-and-earlier, so we looked into it to make sure that wasn't the case. With U45, all four standing Greatsword detects got larger, gaining 25% to the distance they extend in front of you. The first and third Greataxe animation detects got larger as well, gaining 13% to the distance they extend in front of you. The rest of their detects are unchanged (including mobile); none of their detects became smaller. I think some of the issue here stems from the Timing above - With people not used to the changes to timing, creatures are somewhat more likely to move out of range before the detect. We do not have any changes on the radar here, but the change to the Timing above ought to make this happen a little less often, which should feel better.

    It's also worth noting that I've seen a few people say "the detect for Strikethrough feels smaller/larger than the main attack". To be clear, Strikethrough is a modifier to the number of targets your attacks hit. There is no secondary detect - Only your attack. Strikethrough determines how many targets that attack hits.

    3) Animations
    We know of a few animation issues that we have artists looking at (female human/half-elf hands do some weeeeeeird stuff, and mobile animations can get a bit clippy), but those won't make it in time for the next patch. We're also talking about positioning/angle of various swings in the new animation sets, and looking into whether or not we want to make any changes there, but we don't have any conclusive changes to share at this time.

    Thank you for your feedback on Two Handed Fighting! We know that the changes aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea, but we're working to make sure the style is both mechanically good and feels good, and thanks for bearing with us.

    I too felt the hit box was smaller during game play. This morning I did some testing and it actually seemed ok. I think the late detect is causing most of the problems I am seeing.

    On a separate note, I was going to wait till I hit cap on this alt to see how it did, but I am curious if it will be possible to add some double strike somewhere in the system. Preferably in the THF feats so all THF get to take advantage of them. THF double strike is woefully low compared to other fighting styles, and while I don't think we should be the same, I do feel it needs to be higher. Monks obviously can take huge advantage of this with whirlwind. I suppose fighters can as well. Other classes simply don't have enough feats to take it. So while a full investment into whirlwind probably should yield a better output, THF really have no great ways to raise it. Unless I am just not considering certain sources.
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  4. #84
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Clarify: Glancing Blows did have a separate, smaller detect. That was removed with Glancing Blows in U45.
    Is it possible that the glancing blow detect either had a larger radius, or was positioned differently? That could be why the strikethough detect feels smaller, as indicated by the amazing paint skills above I'm just guessing, haven't tested much myself.

    Good to see the animation timing is being fixed so quickly. Is the sound effect timing also being adjusted? The first attack while moving with greatsword sound is way off. The 'whoosh' plays as the sword is being lifted over the shoulder, as if you are trying to stab something behind you...
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Is it possible that the glancing blow detect either had a larger radius, or was positioned differently? That could be why the strikethough detect feels smaller, as indicated by the amazing paint skills above I'm just guessing, haven't tested much myself.
    Judging by what Steelstar said in his 2 responses I think this could be key to the hitbox issue but I would like to clarify something 1st.

    If I am understanding this correctly (and please correct me if I have misunderstood this) the way GB used to work was we had the same initial hitbox as we do now (or close to) but after making the initial hit the game would then do a detect for glancing blows in a 180 degree arc around the player so you would hit any mobs in range. Now with ST, once the initial attack connects it auto applies the rest of the strikes to any other mobs in that same hitbox area.

    To use Razahe's picture for demonstration I feel that if we take the old and new initial hitbox to be the same the black box would be most accurate. The difference being that with the new system all the viable targets have to be within that box. With the old GB system the glancing blows were then detected using a seperate hitbox that would arc around the player similar to cleave.

    If this is the case then that would explain why the hitbox "feels" so much smaller despite being roughly the same size.

  6. #86
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weemadarthur View Post
    If I am understanding this correctly (and please correct me if I have misunderstood this) the way GB used to work was we had the same initial hitbox as we do now (or close to) but after making the initial hit the game would then do a detect for glancing blows in a 180 degree arc around the player so you would hit any mobs in range. Now with ST, once the initial attack connects it auto applies the rest of the strikes to any other mobs in that same hitbox area.
    Err yes, I mean't the angle of the hit box, not radius of the circle. If the base attack has an angle of 120 degrees, but the old glancing blow had 180 degrees, then it would feel smaller even if the radius of the semi-circle was larger.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    but I am curious if it will be possible to add some double strike somewhere in the system. Preferably in the THF feats so all THF get to take advantage of them..
    But then classes that already have DS in their enhancement trees would still remain far ahead of those that don't - e.g. Rogues and Monks with staves would still be ahead of most other classes.

    For example, Vanguard gets some DS, but they have to have a shield equipped which means for ST purposes only b-sword or d-axe would benefit, and those weapons do not get the full 3x modifier, and are limited as favored weapons as well (PDK/dwarf) making them less useful.

    Kensai gets some DS, I think 5% at L18 and 21% at L20.

    Barbarians have no DS in their enhancements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reesi View Post
    I believe the biggest problem is some classes do not get inherent doublestrike within their enhancements, which can leave them behind other classes like monk/rogue using a quarterstaff that do have class specific doublestrike. The benefit of the new stat formula scales better to doublestrike, making a class with access to near 40% more doublestrike with a quarterstaff seem awesome- while those with less or none (Barbarian) but extra strength it seems quite underwhelming.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  8. #88
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    Steelstar -

    Could you please while you are in there adjust the 2hf damage.
    I have 76 strength, perfect 2hf fighting and an echo of black razor.
    It should not take me 20 minutes to kill a red named boss on EE.
    Magic users seem to accomplish the same thing in about 20 seconds.

    Also, could you adjust the damage that full armor takes?
    I have 119 AC, 331 Fort, 240 PRR, 150 MRR.
    I'm wearing Legendary Enforcers Plate.
    I should not be killed in 6 seconds by a mob on EE.

    If you do these things, you will make paladin a viable class for players.
    If you don't, it will continue to be Sir Robin.

  9. #89
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    But then classes that already have DS in their enhancement trees would still remain far ahead of those that don't - e.g. Rogues and Monks with staves would still be ahead of most other classes.

    For example, Vanguard gets some DS, but they have to have a shield equipped which means for ST purposes only b-sword or d-axe would benefit, and those weapons do not get the full 3x modifier, and are limited as favored weapons as well (PDK/dwarf) making them less useful.

    Kensai gets some DS, I think 5% at L18 and 21% at L20.

    Barbarians have no DS in their enhancements.
    Very true. Maybe add ds to the barn tree then?
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  10. #90
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    Ok just logged into the servers and logged into my Barb. I've just run the ruins of Berez and can honestly say what an improvement so thank you very much.

    2hf now feels a lot more responsive and the attack animations seem to be lining up with the hits sooooo much better. I will need to do some more testing to be sure its all working right (still not 100% sure about the ST hitbox for example) but just from the feel of it I'm a much much happier barb.

    So big thanks to SSG for getting this done so quickly. I for one really appreciate the changes you have made here.

  11. #91
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    re: Doublestrike - I don't think a straight bonus would give quarterstaff monks and rogues some kind of unreasonable benefit, they already use a pretty lame weapon even with Swords to Plowshares. Barbarians have the capacity to do more base damage, the change would get them back where they belong due to the scaling. Staff Monks and rogues would get a linear benefit which they arguably would push over 100% at end game gear and past live benefits, eventually bringing it back in line. Their 25% is also from an ability, 12 second cooldown, 10 second buff. A high level monk can get another 12% I believe with Wind Stance. Rogue can get 20% from Killer enhancement in Assassin, situational, however, it doesn't stack with Quickstrikes - both are morale. EK (which gets ~ 13% doublestrike and can use a staff) it would be kind of cool for as well.

    I would put 20 double in the base THF feat, and 5 in Cleave and Greater Cleave, 10 for whirlwind attack - which I hope provides the benefit where it makes sense. But hey, I am just backseat designing here.

  12. #92
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    While today's changes to the animation timing improve things, I still hate playing my THF paladin now. Could we please change the first attack animation so that it doesn't have a 1 1/2 sec long wind up before the attack actually occurs?
    Last edited by PurpleTimb; 02-19-2020 at 05:38 PM.

  13. #93
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleTimb View Post
    While today's changes to the animation timing improve things, I still hate playing my THF paladin now. Could we please change the first attack animation so that it doesn't have a 1 1/2 sec long wind up before the attack actually occurs?
    I was just about to post the exact same thing. Also, have you noticed when you do a smite that there is an extremely long delay at the end of the animation before you can make your next attack? I'm thinking smites now lower my dps and I'm better off just mashing the mouse button with regular attacks.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

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    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I was just about to post the exact same thing. Also, have you noticed when you do a smite that there is an extremely long delay at the end of the animation before you can make your next attack? I'm thinking smites now lower my dps and I'm better off just mashing the mouse button with regular attacks.
    Yes, posted about a few things that aren't working for smites, which have gone from a signature ability to a dps loss.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ted-Smite-Nerf

  15. #95
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reesi View Post
    re: Doublestrike - I don't think a straight bonus would give quarterstaff monks and rogues some kind of unreasonable benefit, they already use a pretty lame weapon even with Swords to Plowshares. Barbarians have the capacity to do more base damage, the change would get them back where they belong due to the scaling. Staff Monks and rogues would get a linear benefit which they arguably would push over 100% at end game gear and past live benefits, eventually bringing it back in line. Their 25% is also from an ability, 12 second cooldown, 10 second buff. A high level monk can get another 12% I believe with Wind Stance. Rogue can get 20% from Killer enhancement in Assassin, situational, however, it doesn't stack with Quickstrikes - both are morale. EK (which gets ~ 13% doublestrike and can use a staff) it would be kind of cool for as well.

    I would put 20 double in the base THF feat, and 5 in Cleave and Greater Cleave, 10 for whirlwind attack - which I hope provides the benefit where it makes sense. But hey, I am just backseat designing here.
    I cartainly cant claim to be a stick expert, so I’m not sure the best way to handle it. But playing a barn currently and it definitely needs a way to get some more doublestrike. I’m not saying max per say, but certainly more. Should be 30 and geared by the weekend and will post some results.
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    i want to reiterate though that we should all keep the fires hot. like i say it'll probably take at least a year to get this fixed, but the alternative if we all shut up about it is it never gets fixed. as disappointing as the former is, it's better than the latter
    [Insert obligatory stealth comment here]

  17. #97
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    So after getting to 30 and tossing on a few items, I am able to reaper boost to 99%. I think the double strike is ok for barbs. They could add a little in barb trees to make it a bit easier for newer players though.
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  18. #98
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    after the update, the greataxe animation does connect better - the actual hits/damage do seem to correspond to the axe striking the target - both in sound and damage dice.

    I have to say that I liked the old animation better, it seemed more elegant, but I will get used to this.

    There is an odd half-swing that I seem to make whenever I hard target something new - I make a swing, but then the swing resets, does the exact same swing motion again and then proceeds through the full animation cycle after - I am not sure if that is intentional somehow but I can live with it.

    thanks for taking the time to look into this.
    Last edited by Graskitch; 02-21-2020 at 06:24 AM.

  19. #99
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    Thank you SSG for fixing THF

    Breakables break, interrupts work and landing hits syncs better

    Personally like GB better than ST though, and the old animation better

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