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  1. #1
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    Angry A Call to Boycott Hardcore League Season 2 - reaction to patch 45

    Considering the vast number of players who spoke out against the nerfs of patch 45, including the
    removal of the old school ship buffs,
    how much money we've all spent on our guild ships and real-time grinding - and those players who
    asked the dev team specifically to separate the Hardcore League from the legitimate home servers and
    not sweep ridiculous hardcore death league balance changes and nerfs into our ordinary gameplay,
    I am continuing my call out for the community to boycott Hardcore League Season Two.

    Perhaps I am not the only one tired of posting here and being completely ignored -

    literally every player I know - everyone - is unhappy about the old school ship buffs being removed -
    Its the old school people, like me, who spend thousands of real-world dollars on this game -

    So go ahead flame away at me, I am an easy target - I love DDO - been playing probably way too long,
    long before this crew of devs grabbed the tiller and began tacking into these waters,
    but some 2009 promise made by different devs, to remove those old ship buffs, then doing it 11 years later,
    then denying it has anything to do with hardcore league server balancing, well that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
    **Master of the Beyond**

  2. #2
    Community Member glmfw1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Lord_Mary View Post
    ...but some 2009 promise made by different devs, to remove those old ship buffs, then doing it 11 years later...
    mid-2014, so we're looking at 5 and a half years later, but it has been mentioned a few times since that it was "going to happen at some point".
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  3. #3
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    Have to agree with Gim here, this is not a surprise. This has been mentioned many times before that they were going away. You still get resist + absorb from the holds.

    I am one of those old school guys as you say OP, and I don't have an issue with this.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca the Elder
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Lord_Mary View Post
    Considering the vast number of players who spoke out against the nerfs of patch 45, including the
    removal of the old school ship buffs,
    how much money we've all spent on our guild ships and real-time grinding - and those players who
    asked the dev team specifically to separate the Hardcore League from the legitimate home servers and
    not sweep ridiculous hardcore death league balance changes and nerfs into our ordinary gameplay,
    I am continuing my call out for the community to boycott Hardcore League Season Two.

    Perhaps I am not the only one tired of posting here and being completely ignored -

    literally every player I know - everyone - is unhappy about the old school ship buffs being removed -
    Its the old school people, like me, who spend thousands of real-world dollars on this game -

    So go ahead flame away at me, I am an easy target - I love DDO - been playing probably way too long,
    long before this crew of devs grabbed the tiller and began tacking into these waters,
    but some 2009 promise made by different devs, to remove those old ship buffs, then doing it 11 years later,
    then denying it has anything to do with hardcore league server balancing, well that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
    I ignored the first one and for sure i will ignore the next.

  5. #5
    Community Member bonscott87's Avatar
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    I see no issue here, they were supposed to go away 5+ years ago. Personally when I read about these changes I let all the Cargo hold stuff expire and I rearranged the stuff that were staying.

    Personally, my guildies and I find it freeing actually. I don't feel like I *have* to run back to the boat every other quest to re-up those hold buffs. Now I just hang out for hours of gametime and only go to the boat to renew the main buffs every few hours of game time.

  6. #6
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    If HCL was REALLY going to be hardcore. you wouldn't get any buffs from a ship at all.


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    Under no circumstances will tomorrow's work "fix lag".

  7. #7
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    I think any move that revalues the actual spells of an actual player (resist energy) is a good thing for the game.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    If HCL was REALLY going to be hardcore. you wouldn't get any buffs from a ship at all.
    And remove the store.

  9. #9
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    /not signed. Changes to ship buffs were generally good for the game, as others have mentioned. And it was previously announced. Be happy you had it for as long as you did.

    U45 has a lot of interesting and positive things. I'm looking forward to trying some of them out.

    And I'm looking forward to HCL2.
    Asheras - Velania - Renvar - Ventarya - Officer in Loreseekers and Officer of Lava Divers - Khyber

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaeveTuohy View Post
    I think any move that revalues the actual spells of an actual player (resist energy) is a good thing for the game.
    This is my point of view. All the things that make it a bag of tools instead of a reason to work together.

    (scrolls/potions are too cheap)

  11. #11

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    There's a lot of arguments we could make for keeping those buffs, but the big reason why they had to go had to do with balance, and not just on hardcore league.

    Take a look at those buffs from game design perspective.

    At low levels, they make you completely ignore a trap that would murder a newbie. You could walk into that acid or fire or what have you, stand around in it, take a shower, go get groceries, do laundry, take a long weekend and still be fine the next week.

    Whereas a new or returning player character without access to a grandfathered-in guild, would die in a split-heartbeat, not even know what happened and likely bounce out of the game entirely. I have 40 hitpoints, what is this 50 cold damage twice, are you kidding me, how is that fair? Cue table-flip.

    This puts level designers between a rock and a hard place. Do we balance the game for veterans who laugh at anything that does 30 elemental damage or less, and routinely swim in lava for the luls, or do we try and make new content that would draw new people in?

    Oh, maybe we could do both? Maybe we could write a tricky script that would check every player in the dungeon for old-school guild buffs, and if they do have them, up the damage on everything for them specifically? Wait, that's not going to work either. One: what happens if your guild buffs expire mid-dungeon? Two: what's the point of upping trap or monster spell damage to counteract an existing buff, wouldn't that act make that buff meaningless, to begin with? Three: can you imagine the bugs that would come out of that?

    If the buffs didn't make such a dramatic difference, we could argue about their effects being unimportant. But they are disruptive. In a way, they reduce your hitpoints bar to a binary value: you're either at full health, or you're dead. You either walk through **** without a care or you pop your soulstone and gasp at combat log. It's as if you had 1 hit point, and your Con modifier and other defenses meant nothing at all. It's a very narrow design frame for building content and systems.

    I'm sorry these changes are hard to accept for some of you, but we did it for the long-term health of the game.

    Thank you for reading this rather long-winded explanation.

  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    There's a lot of arguments we could make for keeping those buffs, but the big reason why they had to go had to do with balance, and not just on hardcore league.

    Take a look at those buffs from game design perspective.

    At low levels, they make you completely ignore a trap that would murder a newbie. You could walk into that acid or fire or what have you, stand around in it, take a shower, go get groceries, do laundry, take a long weekend and still be fine the next week.

    Whereas a new or returning player character without access to a grandfathered-in guild, would die in a split-heartbeat, not even know what happened and likely bounce out of the game entirely. I have 40 hitpoints, what is this 50 cold damage twice, are you kidding me, how is that fair? Cue table-flip.
    I can think of quite a few things in DDO that fall into this description.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    This puts level designers between a rock and a hard place. Do we balance the game for veterans who laugh at anything that does 30 elemental damage or less, and routinely swim in lava for the luls, or do we try and make new content that would draw new people in?

    Oh, maybe we could do both? Maybe we could write a tricky script that would check every player in the dungeon for old-school guild buffs, and if they do have them, up the damage on everything for them specifically? Wait, that's not going to work either. One: what happens if your guild buffs expire mid-dungeon? Two: what's the point of upping trap or monster spell damage to counteract an existing buff, wouldn't that act make that buff meaningless, to begin with? Three: can you imagine the bugs that would come out of that?

    If the buffs didn't make such a dramatic difference, we could argue about their effects being unimportant. But they are disruptive. In a way, they reduce your hitpoints bar to a binary value: you're either at full health, or you're dead. You either walk through **** without a care or you pop your soulstone and gasp at combat log. It's as if you had 1 hit point, and your Con modifier and other defenses meant nothing at all. It's a very narrow design frame for building content and systems.

    I'm sorry these changes are hard to accept for some of you, but we did it for the long-term health of the game.

    Thank you for reading this rather long-winded explanation.
    If a line is being drawn in the sand on this issue, why is it on guild buff resists?

    There are MANY ways to cover up weaknesses, disallowing entire schools of magic to affect the character for instance, and 30 point resists at low level (not immunity, just resists) is where the line is drawn? Thats the part that doesnt make sense.

    Also, throwing "newbies" under the bus doesn't help. Why are they in elite/reaper in the first place? Normal/hard traps dont kill on first hit. No need to write that tricky script. This is why different difficulty settings exist in the game.

    Furthermore, exposing vets to the same damage doesnt prevent the newbie from throwing the same table flipping tantrum you described. This is a major issue on these forums. Somehow people think making it worse for X will make it better for Y. When you nerf X, it doesnt make it better for Y. Here you describe how the newbie doesnt think its fair that they get hit with 2x 50 HP damage, but you didnt prevent that, all you did was expose vets to the same damage. How does that make the newbie feel better?

    95% of the time on these boards when the "think about the newbies" argument gets trotted out, it can easily be refuted.

    All that being said, keep in mind I wish you guys did more of this, not less. Not allowing people to cover up the majority of weaknesses would mean a more dynamic game design other than having to use less hits-to-kill (aka bigger single hits) to attack entire HP totals because that becomes the only way left to "challenge" players. Taking away 30 point resist buffs at low level is the wrong place to draw the line if that is the justification.
    Last edited by Chai; 02-12-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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  13. #13

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    I'm not boycotting the hardcore league - I just have no interest in it whatsoever.

    Removing the ship resists is a great change.
    Kobold sentient jewel still hate you.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    There's a lot of arguments we could make for keeping those buffs, but the big reason why they had to go had to do with balance, and not just on hardcore league.

    Take a look at those buffs from game design perspective.

    At low levels, they make you completely ignore a trap that would murder a newbie. You could walk into that acid or fire or what have you, stand around in it, take a shower, go get groceries, do laundry, take a long weekend and still be fine the next week.

    Whereas a new or returning player character without access to a grandfathered-in guild, would die in a split-heartbeat, not even know what happened and likely bounce out of the game entirely. I have 40 hitpoints, what is this 50 cold damage twice, are you kidding me, how is that fair? Cue table-flip.

    This puts level designers between a rock and a hard place. Do we balance the game for veterans who laugh at anything that does 30 elemental damage or less, and routinely swim in lava for the luls, or do we try and make new content that would draw new people in?

    Oh, maybe we could do both? Maybe we could write a tricky script that would check every player in the dungeon for old-school guild buffs, and if they do have them, up the damage on everything for them specifically? Wait, that's not going to work either. One: what happens if your guild buffs expire mid-dungeon? Two: what's the point of upping trap or monster spell damage to counteract an existing buff, wouldn't that act make that buff meaningless, to begin with? Three: can you imagine the bugs that would come out of that?

    If the buffs didn't make such a dramatic difference, we could argue about their effects being unimportant. But they are disruptive. In a way, they reduce your hitpoints bar to a binary value: you're either at full health, or you're dead. You either walk through **** without a care or you pop your soulstone and gasp at combat log. It's as if you had 1 hit point, and your Con modifier and other defenses meant nothing at all. It's a very narrow design frame for building content and systems.

    I'm sorry these changes are hard to accept for some of you, but we did it for the long-term health of the game.

    Thank you for reading this rather long-winded explanation.
    You make awesome quests though so I'll allow it. On the other hand Kobold Shaman lightning bolts shred low level characters. Probably should tone it down for the newbie. It's not killing a veteran so it's not doing damage for the sake of challenge. It's just killing a new person and then they quit and uninstall because Kobold Shamans one shot them. You got no chance in a one shot scenario. No one likes playing that as a new player.


    As for HCL, I played with and without ship resists. Oh man is it so much hairier without. Everyone should've done it. Not sure why HCL just simply bans the resists, but the resists aren't a huge issue with me. A ton of other things are though.
    Last edited by GramercyRiff; 02-12-2020 at 01:25 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member ThomasHunter's Avatar
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    Default Done with buffs

    When it was initially announced 5+ years ago I stopped using the buffs. Now I cast Resist Energy. I have to be prepared. I like it better.

    The only time I’ve really strayed from this path is for that crazy fire elemental quest in House K. I usually just avoid it though as it isn’t all that fun in my opinion.

    So load up Resist Energy and bid those old buffs goodbye!!

    Enjoy!
    Taleisin

  16. #16
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    I will not be boycotting the H/C2 because I want the devs to see how much they overnerfed the Inquisitive in a level environment so they can reverse some of the changes before H/C3.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by GramercyRiff View Post
    You make awesome quests though so I'll allow it. On the other hand Kobold Shaman lightning bolts shred low level characters. Probably should tone it down for the newbie. It's not killing a veteran so it's not doing damage for the sake of challenge. It's just killing a new person and then they quit and uninstall because Kobold Shamans one shot them. You got no chance in a one shot scenario. No one likes playing that as a new player.


    As for HCL, I played with and without ship resists. Oh man is it so much hairier without. Everyone should've done it. Not sure why HCL just simply bans the resists, but the resists aren't a huge issue with me. A ton of other things are though.
    Thank you kindly. Kobold Shaman lightning bolts are a known problem. Not sure about the best way to fix them.

  18. #18
    Hero Noir's Avatar
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    /not signed.

    We knew from the inception of the new class of guild ships the cargo hold buffs were going to be going away.
    It's an easy button I admit I used. But knew it was massively OP at low levels.

    I played the game before they were ever introduced and we did just fine with resist items, potions, and spells.
    Although we did have to play with more caution and tactics. ( Which is a Good thing in my opinion )

    Waiting patiently for HC Season 2 to begin.
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  19. #19
    Community Member ChicagoChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    There's a lot of arguments we could make for keeping those buffs, but the big reason why they had to go had to do with balance, and not just on hardcore league.

    Take a look at those buffs from game design perspective.

    At low levels, they make you completely ignore a trap that would murder a newbie. You could walk into that acid or fire or what have you, stand around in it, take a shower, go get groceries, do laundry, take a long weekend and still be fine the next week.

    Whereas a new or returning player character without access to a grandfathered-in guild, would die in a split-heartbeat, not even know what happened and likely bounce out of the game entirely. I have 40 hitpoints, what is this 50 cold damage twice, are you kidding me, how is that fair? Cue table-flip.

    This puts level designers between a rock and a hard place. Do we balance the game for veterans who laugh at anything that does 30 elemental damage or less, and routinely swim in lava for the luls, or do we try and make new content that would draw new people in?

    Oh, maybe we could do both? Maybe we could write a tricky script that would check every player in the dungeon for old-school guild buffs, and if they do have them, up the damage on everything for them specifically? Wait, that's not going to work either. One: what happens if your guild buffs expire mid-dungeon? Two: what's the point of upping trap or monster spell damage to counteract an existing buff, wouldn't that act make that buff meaningless, to begin with? Three: can you imagine the bugs that would come out of that?

    If the buffs didn't make such a dramatic difference, we could argue about their effects being unimportant. But they are disruptive. In a way, they reduce your hitpoints bar to a binary value: you're either at full health, or you're dead. You either walk through **** without a care or you pop your soulstone and gasp at combat log. It's as if you had 1 hit point, and your Con modifier and other defenses meant nothing at all. It's a very narrow design frame for building content and systems.

    I'm sorry these changes are hard to accept for some of you, but we did it for the long-term health of the game.

    Thank you for reading this rather long-winded explanation.
    Probably would have been better received if the buffs were changed over time - U45, the 30's go to 20's. U46->10, U47->0. Or change them into level based ( 1.5 per char level up to 30).

    But its just really the SSG perception on this - "We've got a lot of OP FOTM nerfs, and here's a kick in the pants to go with it."

    But personally, I think people on the forums are just *way* overreacting.
    Farog on Khyber

  20. #20
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasHunter View Post
    When it was initially announced 5+ years ago I stopped using the buffs. Now I cast Resist Energy. I have to be prepared. I like it better.
    Exactly. We have known it is coming like.... forever. Not as if it was suddenly a surprise or stealth change.
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