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  1. #1
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    Default Vile Vistani Knife Thrower

    Hey all,

    This is what I threw together for a pure Alch throwing knife build, figured I'd post it here to see if anyone has any suggestions for improvements.

    Vile Vistani Knife Thrower
    Alchemist 20
    True Neutral Aasimar Scourge


    Stats
    .................. 36pt ... Tome .. Level Up
    ................... ---- .... ---- .... --------
    Strength ....... 8 ..... +8 ...... 4: INT
    Dexterity ..... 14 ..... +8 ...... 8: INT
    Constitution . 16 ..... +8 ..... 12: INT
    Intelligence .. 18 ..... +8 ..... 16: INT
    Wisdom ....... 10 ..... +8 ..... 20: INT
    Charisma ..... 12 ..... +8 ..... 24: INT
    ........................................ 28: INT

    Feats

    1 : Point Blank Shot
    3 : Simple Thrown Expertise
    4 Alch : Battalion Brew
    6 : Rapid Shot
    8 Alch : Liquid Courage
    9 : Precise Shot
    12 : Improved Critical: Thrown
    12 Alch : Liquid Luck
    15 : Improved Precise Shot
    16 Alch : Precision
    18 : Quicken Spell
    20 Alch : Empower Healing
    21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
    24 Epic : Combat Archery
    26 Destiny: Holy Strike
    27 Epic : Blinding Speed
    28 Destiny: Doubleshot
    29 Destiny: Harbinger of Chaos
    30 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
    30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea


    Enhancements (80+12+1 AP)

    Vistani Knife Fighter (41 AP)
    • Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Knife Master
    1. Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
    2. Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Haste Boost III
    3. Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Intelligence
    4. Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Intelligence
    5. Vistani Knife Training, Whirling Blades, Blessed Blades, Vendetta

    Vile Chemist (31 AP)
    • Poisoner, Poisoned Coating, Hidden Blades, More Hidden Blades, Brushed Aside
    1. Deadly Poison, Alchemical Accuracy II
    2. Deadly Poison, Poisoned Shot, Venom Affinity III
    3. Deadly Poison, SLA: Wave of Poison III, Envenom the Heart, Intelligence
    4. Deadly Poison, Unbreakable Ambition, Intelligence

    Aasimar Scourge (12 AP)
    • Stronger Bonds, Wisdom, Stronger Bonds II, Wisdom, Stronger Bonds III
    1. Improved Recovery
    2. Divine Purpose
    3. Improved Recovery

    Harper Agent (9 AP)
    • Agent of Good I
    1. Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness III
    2. Know the Angles III



    Notes:
    Aasimar Scourge is being picked only for its iconic past life and is not necessary or important for the build. In fact, doing this build as a Scourge will require a lesser +1 heart of wood.
    Completionist was not taken as I will not be completionist for this life (after the addition of Alchemist) but future times playing this build will swap Weapon Focus for Completionist, and swap its position with Precision
    Last edited by ZzpxpzZ; 02-11-2020 at 08:55 PM.
    Vlyxnol - Coven of Heroes - Cannith
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  2. #2
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    1) Free level 6 feat for alchemist:

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Multitude_of_Missiles

    Might stack with whirling blades, but I doubt it.

    2) Simple Thrown Expertise: Requires 13 Dexterity: You are skilled with the use of Simple Thrown Weapons (Throwing Daggers and Darts) and while using one, you gain Doubleshot equal to your Dexterity. (Simple Thrown Expertise will also be available to non-Alchemists as a general/open Feat).

    edit: Can be converted to INT to doubleshot as well.

    3) Halfling gets dex to damage in T3 if you want to go dex.

    4) T5 of vile chemist: Chemical Weapon: Passive: Your Simple Weapons gain +1[w]. Your simple ranged thrown weapons attack 15% faster.

    edit: 5) 6 rogue gets mechanic core 3 for int to damage. Combine with harper T1 int to hit. For additional options. The mechanic enhancements apply to throwers as well, could be a few more points of damage if the AP can be spared.

    Maybe go T5 chemist and Core 6 vistani.

    Anyway, these are my thoughts on a dagger thrower so far. But I've not done a thrower yet, so I could be way off.
    Last edited by redoubt; 02-11-2020 at 06:16 PM.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    1) Free level 6 feat for alchemist:

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Multitude_of_Missiles

    Might stack with whirling blades, but I doubt it.

    2) Simple Thrown Expertise: Requires 13 Dexterity: You are skilled with the use of Simple Thrown Weapons (Throwing Daggers and Darts) and while using one, you gain Doubleshot equal to your Dexterity. (Simple Thrown Expertise will also be available to non-Alchemists as a general/open Feat).

    edit: Can be converted to INT to doubleshot as well.

    3) Halfling gets dex to damage in T3 if you want to go dex.

    4) T5 of vile chemist: Chemical Weapon: Passive: Your Simple Weapons gain +1[w]. Your simple ranged thrown weapons attack 15% faster.

    edit: 5) 6 rogue gets mechanic core 3 for int to damage. Combine with harper T1 int to hit. For additional options. The mechanic enhancements apply to throwers as well, could be a few more points of damage if the AP can be spared.

    Maybe go T5 chemist and Core 6 vistani.

    Anyway, these are my thoughts on a dagger thrower so far. But I've not done a thrower yet, so I could be way off.

    1) Realized I misunderstood what you were saying. As far as I am aware it is going to work the same as 10k stars vs manyshot where they will put each other on cooldown but for a shorter CD than the actual ability CDs.

    2) Woof good catch, I didnt even notice I didnt slot simple weapon expertise, thats what I get for just modifying an arti build on the not recently updated lite planner heh.

    3) No good reason to go dex, since Alch gets free Int to Reflex AND a feat pick to get your choice of Int to one of the other stats, so going int based is safely the better course IMHO.

    4) Because of the capstone nerf for Vile Chemist I decided to go T5 VKF since its easier to slot the capstone and t5 in the same tree, particularly if you want to fit KtA. Since the 15% attack speed vs Whirling and Blessed Blades is hard to say which will pull ahead and will definitely require more testing so, while it is possible that the T5 VC will end up stronger, it remains to be seen. As such I just went VKF because the AP spread is much more manageable.

    5) There is definitely some multiclass options, ill be going thrower Alch > Caster alch > probably another thrower again but this time a more optimized multiclass spread for my 3rd alch life. I hope some other interesting multiclass builds surface by then
    Last edited by ZzpxpzZ; 02-11-2020 at 10:32 PM.
    Vlyxnol - Coven of Heroes - Cannith
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  4. #4
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    1) Realized I misunderstood what you were saying. As far as I am aware it is going to work the same as 10k stars vs manyshot where they will put each other on cooldown but for a shorter CD than the actual ability CDs.

    2) Woof good catch, I didnt even notice I didnt slot simple weapon expertise, thats what I get for just modifying an arti build on the not recently updated lite planner heh.

    3) No good reason to go dex, since Alch gets free Int to Reflex AND a feat pick to get your choice of Int to one of the other stats, so going int based is safely the better course IMHO.

    4) Because of the capstone nerf for Vile Chemist I decided to go T5 VKF since its easier to slot the capstone and t5 in the same tree, particularly if you want to fit KtA. Since the 15% attack speed vs Whirling and Blessed Blades is hard to say which will pull ahead and will definitely require more testing so, while it is possible that the T5 VC will end up stronger, it remains to be seen. As such I just went VKF because the AP spread is much more manageable.

    5) There is definitely some multiclass options, ill be going thrower Alch > Caster alch > probably another thrower again but this time a more optimized multiclass spread for my 3rd alch life. I hope some other interesting multiclass builds surface by then
    3) I just found battalion brew. As a bonus feat this is huge. You are right, no reason to go dex. (other than making the dex minimums for other feats like Combat Archery.)
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  5. #5
    Community Member magaiti's Avatar
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    26: Holy Strike
    Seems like a waste of a feat, unless you can't fit Ghostly/Ethereal into your gear.
    I'd consider either Epic Spell Power: Negative or Pierce Adamantine.

    Is going pure Alchemist really worth it? I'm planning a similar build, but going to take 1 level or Rogue for traps and 1 level of Barbarian for fast movement.

    Did devs really remove extra projectile chance from Core 3? That sucks.
    Arlandina / Bayanessa / Smallsword of Argonnessen

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by magaiti View Post
    26: Holy Strike
    Seems like a waste of a feat, unless you can't fit Ghostly/Ethereal into your gear.
    I'd consider either Epic Spell Power: Negative or Pierce Adamantine.

    Is going pure Alchemist really worth it? I'm planning a similar build, but going to take 1 level or Rogue for traps and 1 level of Barbarian for fast movement.

    Did devs really remove extra projectile chance from Core 3? That sucks.
    You are probably right on the holy strike, I was wavering back and forth it wasnt a big change either way, but I did not think about taking one of the DR pierce feats, probably a good choice.

    I specifically am going to do 2 pure lives first, a thrower and then a caster, and my 3rd life I think I will be trying to do a much more optimized thrower split, undecided on it, but I doubt I would be doing such a short splash, it will probably end up being only 12 alch or something in the long run.

    I actually specifically got that clarified by Steel, that was just a typo or a bug in the first Lama, it actually never existed in game at all. All DPS parses were done without the extra throw, it never made it into lamaland, not even the first pass.
    Last edited by ZzpxpzZ; 02-12-2020 at 12:18 PM.
    Vlyxnol - Coven of Heroes - Cannith
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  7. #7
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    3) No good reason to go dex, since Alch gets free Int to Reflex AND a feat pick to get your choice of Int to one of the other stats, so going int based is safely the better course IMHO.
    We'll want Dex high for Simple Thrown Expertise and IPS, but Int is still king.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    <snip>
    I had similar thoughts to feat layout. My mind went cookie-cutter human for the extra feat, and tried to focus damage/ranged power. AP layout dips heavier into Harper for int hit/dmg since I lack racial TRs.

    Alchemist Vistani/Vile Chem

    1 - Point Blank Shot
    H - Simple Thrown Expertise
    3 - Rapid Shot
    A4 - Precision
    6 - Precise Shot
    A8 - Liquid Courage (int to will save)
    9 - Dodge
    12 - Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons
    A12 - Liquid Luck (evasion)
    15 - Improved Precise Shot
    A16 - Mobility
    18 - Quicken Spell
    A20 - Shot on the Run
    ---
    E21 - Overwhelming Critical
    E24 - Combat Archery
    D26 - Pierce Adamantine / Holy Strike
    E27 - Blinding Speed
    D28 - Doubleshot
    E29 - Harbinger of Chaos
    E30 - Epic Damage Reduction / Epic Reflexes
    L30 - Scon of the Plane of Arborea

  9. #9
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    I do not think 20 alch is worth it, especially if you aren't going capstone (I wouldn't either, Vistani is far better). I think a better split is 18 Alch 2 Arti, you gain traps and a runearm which will imbue they very many knives you'll be throwing with a bit more damage. 18-20 Alch does not give anything except 1 more Alch feat and +1 Base attack, no new spells, no new poison dice etc. You would not be able to take the Stone Enhancement so 5% doubleshot loss, but I think having a runearm will be far more damage then 5% doubleshot.

  10. #10
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vess219 View Post
    I do not think 20 alch is worth it, especially if you aren't going capstone (I wouldn't either, Vistani is far better). I think a better split is 18 Alch 2 Arti, you gain traps and a runearm which will imbue they very many knives you'll be throwing with a bit more damage. 18-20 Alch does not give anything except 1 more Alch feat and +1 Base attack, no new spells, no new poison dice etc. You would not be able to take the Stone Enhancement so 5% doubleshot loss, but I think having a runearm will be far more damage then 5% doubleshot.
    Alchemist with dual crossbows makes sense because you can't have an off-hand weapon with dual crossbows.

    If you're going to have a throwing weapon, you can just use a regular off-hand weapon (including named daggers, etc) that will give bonuses to your thrower.

    By the way, Thunderforged weapons are generally "meh", but they're really nice for the off-hand for throwers because of the Armor Piercing and other effects that function on the throwing weapon because they give their bonus to the character.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Alchemist with dual crossbows makes sense because you can't have an off-hand weapon with dual crossbows.

    If you're going to have a throwing weapon, you can just use a regular off-hand weapon (including named daggers, etc) that will give bonuses to your thrower.

    By the way, Thunderforged weapons are generally "meh", but they're really nice for the off-hand for throwers because of the Armor Piercing and other effects that function on the throwing weapon because they give their bonus to the character.
    True, depends what bonuses you'd want but the extra damage from rune arm imbues and the few that offer other effects is something to consider when 18-20 alch doesn't offer much. Plus having trapping is nice especially with all the int the class already wants. Just an alternative, I always enjoy having trapping.

  12. #12
    Community Member magaiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    We'll want Dex high for Simple Thrown Expertise and IPS, but Int is still king.
    You only need enough DEX to qualify for feats.
    Vile Chemist's 4th core makes Simple Thrown Expertise scale with INT instead of DEX, if it's higher (unless they borked it somehow)

    Does Combat Archery work with thrown weapons, by the way?
    Arlandina / Bayanessa / Smallsword of Argonnessen

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by magaiti View Post
    Does Combat Archery work with thrown weapons, by the way?
    It does at least according to the wiki.
    Vlyxnol - Coven of Heroes - Cannith
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  14. #14
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Monk thrower overcomes weak per-hit with shuriken via 2xSTAT = Doubleshot. Without that method, Alchemist is reduced to increasing per-hit damage.

    Suggestions: Swashbuckler C2 for more than +1/+1 critical profile. VKF T5 for +10 damage. Artificer L2 for Rune-arm bonus damage or a classic monk thrower off-hand like Celestia or ToEE weapon. I have a strong suspicion it won't be nearly enough to make a viable thrower using 1xSTAT=Doubleshot, though. Folks tried all that before with Shuriken on non-monk and Daggers aren't enough better per hit to make up the difference.

    Ironically, with light/heavy-xbow being a simple weapon, INQ+Alch is likely far more viable than pure for ranged Alchemist. Alch's poison + monk's ROF might make a better shuriken thrower than is possible without alchemist. It is possible to get high DEX, 180+ ranged power, and 900'ish poison power, and 56%+ poison spell crit on the same character (silverthread belt + necromancer bracer + stygian wrath orb).

  15. #15
    Community Member magaiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    56%+ poison spell crit on the same character (silverthread belt + necromancer bracer + stygian wrath orb).
    Does Poisoned Coating crit?
    Arlandina / Bayanessa / Smallsword of Argonnessen

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