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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This has zero to do with what you linked. Its not remotely that complex of an issue.

    It has to do with asking players to actually cast buffs in order to receive them. You can have whatever subjective view point on this you like (its an annoyance/inconvenience etc...), but it doesnt change the fact that this is true in pretty much every MMO/RPG etc.

    You want the buff? Cast the buff.

    Theres another even more fundamental issue with your premise here:
    Its not the skill CEILING we are talking about at this point. Its the skill FLOOR. If people complain about the negligible rise in skill FLOOR of 2 APM to buff the character, there is zero hope in ever raising the actual skill CEILING.
    You associated having to click the buff with a more strategic gameplay. However, there is no strategy since it's always optimal to click the buff, and I even showed you the game theory justification for this (which is the academic field that studies strategy in adversarial situations such as games).

    You also talk about APM, but seriously, even a zombie can manage two clicks a minute if they really cared to, there is little point to having it. It makes as little sense as converting the law damage on your Inq to a 30s clickable buff. Would your gameplay suddenly improve if this was the case? Maybe we can make a Chai version of DDO where all enhancements have to be re-activated every 30s, it will be brilliant gameplay. Sorry, but APM is a really bad metric of depth in gameplay, even Starcraft players know this.

    If you want deeper gameplay, you have to force the player to make hard choices in real-time depending on what the adventure throws at you. There already are plenty of strategic elements already in the basic movement and attack system of DDO (should I finish this guy or go for the caster? tank an add or try to kite around it? Maybe burst or CC? target which save?). This is the best part of DDO. I would rather see that enhanced than just forcing people to click the same sequence of buttons. Frankly, many mice/controllers can just script that anyway. Good gameplay is about hard choices, not just inflating the APM.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 02-25-2020 at 07:19 AM.

  2. #102
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    Doing well on HC so far with pure Barb ... have to be fast to get the kills before the pew pew.
    This was my experience as well, it was an absolute blast to play my Barbarian there. IBut on Thelanis and the largely solo running I have had to do it less so, a lot less so.

    Melee is a hoot in a crowd and pure drudgery solo.

  3. #103

  4. #104
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Right now doublestrike is at 7% and Strikethrough is at 150% I can get those better I am sure.

    All in all I have some adjustment to do and we will see if that helps. Thanks for putting that bug in my ear.
    I can't speak for Heroics, but at 30 my current toon has 200% Strikethrough (I'm using One Against Many Filigree and some from FotW, but I don't have any class options), +100% during Unbridled Fury; it's pretty consistent and pretty great. I have 78-88 DS (depending on if I'm boosting Tactics or not) plus Reaper DS boost, so that's why I keep mentioning it with cleaves. My cleaves hit twice most of the time, and that feels really good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  5. #105
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I can't speak for Heroics, but at 30 my current toon has 200% Strikethrough (I'm using One Against Many Filigree and some from FotW, but I don't have any class options), +100% during Unbridled Fury; it's pretty consistent and pretty great. I have 78-88 DS (depending on if I'm boosting Tactics or not) plus Reaper DS boost, so that's why I keep mentioning it with cleaves. My cleaves hit twice most of the time, and that feels really good.
    WOW.

    My strikethrough is sitting at 180% right now (level 22) and it usually gets 3 BUT by doublestrike is nowhere near 78+. It's literally less than 1/10th of that. Is that all gear or where is that coming from? I can think of 9% from martial past lives, that gets me to 16%, 3% from Scourge would be 19%. If I take perfect two handed fighting it would give me another 5% so I'd be at 24% there. At 30 I could take Scion of Limbo for +16% taking me to 40% total. That is still almost 40% off your number and assumes I am at 30 with 6 additional past lives. Please inquiring minds want to know because if I could even hit 25% reasonably I think that might turn the corner for me.

    I can admit if I had something like that on my cleaves I'd probably feel the new system is a DPS gain. Granted I have **** gear and I am not sure if I have much if anything for doublestrike in the set but still adding 40+ % from gear is hard to imagine.

  6. #106
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cronusdeathspell View Post
    +1 this is exactly how it feels for me.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    WOW.

    My strikethrough is sitting at 180% right now (level 22) and it usually gets 3 BUT by doublestrike is nowhere near 78+. It's literally less than 1/10th of that. Is that all gear or where is that coming from? I can think of 9% from martial past lives, that gets me to 16%, 3% from Scourge would be 19%. If I take perfect two handed fighting it would give me another 5% so I'd be at 24% there. At 30 I could take Scion of Limbo for +16% taking me to 40% total. That is still almost 40% off your number and assumes I am at 30 with 6 additional past lives. Please inquiring minds want to know because if I could even hit 25% reasonably I think that might turn the corner for me.

    I can admit if I had something like that on my cleaves I'd probably feel the new system is a DPS gain. Granted I have **** gear and I am not sure if I have much if anything for doublestrike in the set but still adding 40+ % from gear is hard to imagine.
    Look at the part of the family set from Sharn. Not too hard to farm up and gives great set bonuses as well as the gear itself being good. The full leg set will give 26% extra DS on its own (15 artifact from the set and 11 insight from the gloves).

    The necky (also part of the family) from PN raid will give u another 24 enhancement bonus but is quite tough to get.

    Other easier sources include the specter boots from finding dorris (23%) and Legendary mantle of fury from into the mists or fresh baked dreams (22%). Both of those are enhancement bonuses if I can remember right so either will stack with the base sharn family set.

  8. #108
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Default I send you to this very important mission

    Boromir you take the ring from the Hobbits (What the !?)



    Faramir take Osigiliath back from the Orc marksmen (What the !?)








    ???



    Denethor: '...'




    ( The mad guy ? )


    Ps: I enjoy melee at times, but...Even burst casters and marksman fail hard when they dont have enough avoidance, healing amplification and prr/mrr... Chosing pure melee...Nothing wrong about ordinary ranged or melee when used with tactical (swap) gameplay...

    (The question is why some casters get free immortality mode and some ranged get free double ranged bonus with no real penalties ?)



    I still respect the work done to balance the styles.


    Thank you.
    Last edited by Kutalp; 02-25-2020 at 10:50 PM.

  9. #109
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    WOW.

    My strikethrough is sitting at 180% right now (level 22) and it usually gets 3 BUT by doublestrike is nowhere near 78+. It's literally less than 1/10th of that. Is that all gear or where is that coming from? I can think of 9% from martial past lives, that gets me to 16%, 3% from Scourge would be 19%. If I take perfect two handed fighting it would give me another 5% so I'd be at 24% there. At 30 I could take Scion of Limbo for +16% taking me to 40% total. That is still almost 40% off your number and assumes I am at 30 with 6 additional past lives. Please inquiring minds want to know because if I could even hit 25% reasonably I think that might turn the corner for me.

    I can admit if I had something like that on my cleaves I'd probably feel the new system is a DPS gain. Granted I have **** gear and I am not sure if I have much if anything for doublestrike in the set but still adding 40+ % from gear is hard to imagine.
    24% from the PN necklace
    11% insightful from set gloves
    15% artifact from set
    10% profane bonus from baba trinket.

    so that nets you 60% without pastlives, or filigree.

    I still need some work done on my barb, but my doublestrike maxes out with a reaper boost and am 250+ on doublestrike I believe. strength can get up to 140 for short bursts and stay >130 most of the time. I think you're just needing more time to get used to the changes and figure things out.
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  10. #110
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    24% from the PN necklace
    11% insightful from set gloves
    15% artifact from set
    10% profane bonus from baba trinket.

    so that nets you 60% without pastlives, or filigree.

    I still need some work done on my barb, but my doublestrike maxes out with a reaper boost and am 250+ on doublestrike I believe. strength can get up to 140 for short bursts and stay >130 most of the time. I think you're just needing more time to get used to the changes and figure things out.



    Good values there.

    Do you solo only with THF line, Primal and Coccon, Dire charge etc or use Spring attack aswell ? Do you swap to ranged at times if you pick up Ravager ? Or is it Frenzied Berserker ?

  11. #111
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutalp View Post
    Good values there.

    Do you solo only with THF line, Primal and Coccon, Dire charge etc or use Spring attack aswell ? Do you swap to ranged at times if you pick up Ravager ? Or is it Frenzied Berserker ?
    Mostly FB with enough in ravager to get the 10W attack. The rest in Horc. No coccon have to unrage. Usually heal with a hire if solo, just park and heal between fights. I didn't even carry a ranged weapon till cap, now I think I have a spite just to hit switches. Stack temp hp with blood tribute, affirmation, and a weapon swap set bonus when I can.
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  12. #112
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    Mostly FB with enough in ravager to get the 10W attack. The rest in Horc. No coccon have to unrage. Usually heal with a hire if solo, just park and heal between fights. I didn't even carry a ranged weapon till cap, now I think I have a spite just to hit switches. Stack temp hp with blood tribute, affirmation, and a weapon swap set bonus when I can.


    Sounds good. Thanks.

  13. #113
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    I user to play barb a lot.
    From a mechanical/qol standpoint, i would have liked it better if frenzy/ death frenzy were passive boosts for rage or had a multi selector for the 1 min buff and toggle like power attack.
    Then again, rage scales poorly into epics and the penalties (no umd for example) no longer fit the meta.
    The same goes for power attack, barbs are stuck with a sub par feat, it could use an update.

    It's sad to hear the 2hf wasn't the rousing succes as some had hoped.

    Then again, boosting dps on its own wouldn't fix the issues inherrent to the game mechanics.
    The dev's roadmap for new content and it's monsterous population is a bit "off".
    Far to much hp and melee dps is given to mobs, wich gets worse in reaper.
    The bad gear designs seem to hand caster all they need for their instakill spells, melee however is dependant on to manny stats to effectively gear up. Maybe the design team is out of touch with the challenges pressented to melee?


    Or it simply didn't care?
    Because every melee player worth their salt noticed straigh away that the first proposed changes to 2hf were "problematic" to say the least. So i'm confused on how devs could miss that???

    Ohhh wel, serves me right for having faith 2hf would be improved upon.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    I user to play barb a lot.
    From a mechanical/qol standpoint, i would have liked it better if frenzy/ death frenzy were passive boosts for rage or had a multi selector for the 1 min buff and toggle like power attack.
    Then again, rage scales poorly into epics and the penalties (no umd for example) no longer fit the meta.
    The same goes for power attack, barbs are stuck with a sub par feat, it could use an update.

    It's sad to hear the 2hf wasn't the rousing succes as some had hoped.

    Then again, boosting dps on its own wouldn't fix the issues inherrent to the game mechanics.
    The dev's roadmap for new content and it's monsterous population is a bit "off".
    Far to much hp and melee dps is given to mobs, wich gets worse in reaper.
    The bad gear designs seem to hand caster all they need for their instakill spells, melee however is dependant on to manny stats to effectively gear up. Maybe the design team is out of touch with the challenges pressented to melee?


    Or it simply didn't care?
    Because every melee player worth their salt noticed straigh away that the first proposed changes to 2hf were "problematic" to say the least. So i'm confused on how devs could miss that???

    Ohhh wel, serves me right for having faith 2hf would be improved upon.
    Let's take the drama down a notch shall we. Why don't you try them out and come with suggestions yourself instead of just complaining without even touching the game. If you stack double strike you should see a large buff in epics performance, which is where the big problem with THF was anyway. Plus, cleaves just got faster. Cleave-heavy builds are doing much better. Pretty much all THF playstyles except "gather up 10 mobs and auto-attack them down". If that is a problem or not is debatable, but I think many are just not used to the importance of double strike since their old cleaves/GB's couldn't. Are all problems fixed? Probably not, but that is what constructive feedback is for.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 02-26-2020 at 05:37 AM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Let's take the drama down a notch shall we. Why don't you try them out and come with suggestions yourself instead of just complaining without even touching the game. If you stack double strike you should see a large buff in epics performance, which is where the big problem with THF was anyway. Plus, cleaves just got faster. Cleave-heavy builds are doing much better. Pretty much all THF playstyles except "gather up 10 mobs and auto-attack them down". If that is a problem or not is debatable, but I think many are just not used to the importance of double strike since their old cleaves/GB's couldn't. Are all problems fixed? Probably not, but that is what constructive feedback is for.
    No melee problem was solved and it will never be fixed because SSG don't understand why melee sucks.

    Or dont care...

  16. #116
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Let's take the drama down a notch shall we. Why don't you try them out and come with suggestions yourself instead of just complaining without even touching the game. If you stack double strike you should see a large buff in epics performance, which is where the big problem with THF was anyway. Plus, cleaves just got faster. Cleave-heavy builds are doing much better. Pretty much all THF playstyles except "gather up 10 mobs and auto-attack them down". If that is a problem or not is debatable, but I think many are just not used to the importance of double strike since their old cleaves/GB's couldn't. Are all problems fixed? Probably not, but that is what constructive feedback is for.
    I think melee are in a much better position now than they were before U45. Brining Inquis down a few notches, and buffing thf was big. I still think THF can use a bit more due to losing the offhand slot. This is huge and never really been addressed. Maybe a shield type piece smaller than a buckler could go there. Maybe add some other abilities in some of the enhancement trees or feat line. Currently playing a DPS THF barb and the dps is dramatically better than before the update due to several things. Strikethrough can be used to great advantage if done right. Being able to cleave special attacks is huge. Also getting ds on cleaves is a huge plus. Cleave now being much faster using attack speed to speed it up is also a boon. I also like the +3 modifier/trance change. Being pure is no longer auto gimp.

    Also think EDF needs to be looked at again. The bonus is almost must have but the cost is too large. Maybe add some PRR/MRR in with the HP buff. I think adding it as a percentage the same as the HP buff is applied would be good, as it wont be just a straight number but get better the more you can fit that stuff in your build naturally. JM2C.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Let's take the drama down a notch shall we. Why don't you try them out and come with suggestions yourself instead of just complaining without even touching the game. If you stack double strike you should see a large buff in epics performance, which is where the big problem with THF was anyway. Plus, cleaves just got faster. Cleave-heavy builds are doing much better. Pretty much all THF playstyles except "gather up 10 mobs and auto-attack them down". If that is a problem or not is debatable, but I think many are just not used to the importance of double strike since their old cleaves/GB's couldn't. Are all problems fixed? Probably not, but that is what constructive feedback is for.
    Not forgetting that things like stunning blow and trip etc can now take hit multiple opponents at once. With 200 strikethrough (which isnt that difficult to obtain particularly for barbarians) you can stun or trip 3 mobs at once which is a big gain compared to the previous iteration where you could only hit one target at a time with crowd control feats.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    I think melee are in a much better position now than they were before U45. Brining Inquis down a few notches, and buffing thf was big. I still think THF can use a bit more due to losing the offhand slot. This is huge and never really been addressed. Maybe a shield type piece smaller than a buckler could go there. Maybe add some other abilities in some of the enhancement trees or feat line. Currently playing a DPS THF barb and the dps is dramatically better than before the update due to several things. Strikethrough can be used to great advantage if done right. Being able to cleave special attacks is huge. Also getting ds on cleaves is a huge plus. Cleave now being much faster using attack speed to speed it up is also a boon. I also like the +3 modifier/trance change. Being pure is no longer auto gimp.
    Sorry but I have to disagree a bit here. 2hf as a whole took a direct hit and was nerfed quite severely with the last update. 2hf as a whole now hits less targets (so worse for tanky builds trying to keep agro), deals considerably less DPS due to the ST mechanic and yet still has the same problems with damage mitigation. This is from someone who has been promoting the benefits of the new system in regards to the changes and how they effect a Barb FB in FOTW.

    This itself though is where I feel the problem lies with this incarnation of 2hf. A barb in FB and FOTW is now hugely powerful but where is the support for the other trees and classes. Paladins just about broke even if they want to play in KOTC but the lack of support for ST in any other destiny apart from FOTW puts them into bit of a bind. Fighters got absolutely nothing from this update and are currently miles behind any other melee class. As a buff for the FB barb I think the new mechanics were a definite success but this was not a buff for 2hf at all.

    The problem arises due to the mentality that GB and ST are the same, so they only buffed ST where GB was buffed before. This has made for a few powerful builds but has almost railroaded you into those builds. Try playing a pure 2hf fighter now and see the difference. Try playing as a Barb outside of FB and FOTW and let me know how you get on. Don't get me wrong both are still playable (barely) but there is a huuuuuge difference in how they play compared to the FB FOTW uber build you are using as a benchmark.

    Now don't misunderstand I love the ST mechanic now I've gotten used to it. I've even got used to the new animations. I don't dislike what they have tried to do here in any form but at best this was half a pass that is currently not finished.

  19. #119
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CeltEireson View Post
    Not forgetting that things like stunning blow and trip etc can now take hit multiple opponents at once. With 200 strikethrough (which isnt that difficult to obtain particularly for barbarians) you can stun or trip 3 mobs at once which is a big gain compared to the previous iteration where you could only hit one target at a time with crowd control feats.
    AH! I noticed that sometimes my trip seemed to get more than one Mob and I wondered about that. I think I'll have to look to incorporate stuns into the build (never bothered before, it really wasn't needed) as adding some CC into the mix will be a big bonus. Looks like what I really really need is doublestrike gear though, it my cleaves where hitting twice even half the time my DPS would be substantially improved.

    Alas this is also a first life toon forced to mainly solo so getting that gear could be painful. Not 100% sure I want to invest in that hunt on a toon that isn't my main. I am not sure I have seen a Project Nemesis raid up and I have never run the raid myself so going to guess that's not something I could solo and complete so changes are that 24% isn't coming any time soon. Same goes for Old Baba's Hut as well so that's another 10% I am very unlikely to see.

    A Ravenloft set should be a possibility though so 15% there and I can craft gloves for him that will get 12% for me now but could go higher. I'll probably craft those gloves right away I am thinking.... still it's a hell of a hill to climb. If I recall though the Ravenloft gear is all BTA excepting the raid piece so I could, in theory, at least farm much of that on my main.

    *sigh* So painful to see that in order to realize the benefits of the change I need to gear up so heavily on a toon that is ostensibly suited to maximize the benefits form the change. I can honestly say it doesn't make me want to play the character more that is for sure.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weemadarthur View Post
    Sorry but I have to disagree a bit here. 2hf as a whole took a direct hit and was nerfed quite severely with the last update. 2hf as a whole now hits less targets (so worse for tanky builds trying to keep agro), deals considerably less DPS due to the ST mechanic and yet still has the same problems with damage mitigation. This is from someone who has been promoting the benefits of the new system in regards to the changes and how they effect a Barb FB in FOTW.

    This itself though is where I feel the problem lies with this incarnation of 2hf. A barb in FB and FOTW is now hugely powerful but where is the support for the other trees and classes. Paladins just about broke even if they want to play in KOTC but the lack of support for ST in any other destiny apart from FOTW puts them into bit of a bind. Fighters got absolutely nothing from this update and are currently miles behind any other melee class. As a buff for the FB barb I think the new mechanics were a definite success but this was not a buff for 2hf at all.

    The problem arises due to the mentality that GB and ST are the same, so they only buffed ST where GB was buffed before. This has made for a few powerful builds but has almost railroaded you into those builds. Try playing a pure 2hf fighter now and see the difference. Try playing as a Barb outside of FB and FOTW and let me know how you get on. Don't get me wrong both are still playable (barely) but there is a huuuuuge difference in how they play compared to the FB FOTW uber build you are using as a benchmark.

    Now don't misunderstand I love the ST mechanic now I've gotten used to it. I've even got used to the new animations. I don't dislike what they have tried to do here in any form but at best this was half a pass that is currently not finished.
    Are you using cleaves to hold aggro? The way they changed things, cleaves are now the large AoE choice if you want that. Holding aggro sounds more like a tank thing than a THF DPS though. Melee tanking might also need some love, but unfortunately, probably not what this pass was aimed at. I'm not sure if it should be or not.

    Regarding Barb vs. Fighter, I'm not convinced there is such a large discrepancy from ST alone. Are you sure about that? A fighter can easily get 300% (i.e. 4 targets) while a barb gets 40% more, and T5 Frenzied gives + 50% on vorpals. So 4 targets vs. 4.4-4.9. Is this really a "huuuuge" difference considering the hitbox isn't huge begin with? Then there are cleaves...

    Barbs definitely benefited more from the STR multiplier (esp. after the power surge change) and cleaves being buffed though (3s CD cleave, yes please), so maybe it adds up to a substantial advantage. Part of the problem is that glancing blows and cleaves just weren't as useful before. If they fixed WW to not be slower than a regular cleave, and extended the duration of power surge, perhaps THF fighters would be on more even footing without that extra 40% ST? Note that the Fighter capstone also has 15% doublestrike, which we just concluded is difficult for barbs to cap out.

    Then there is the whole argument over defensive stance %hp not stacking with EDF. That's a separate issue, but I can agree that fighter has taken several indirect hits over the last few years, but I'm not sure that extra 40-90% ST (or 20% compared to kotc) would make a large difference.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 02-26-2020 at 10:54 AM.

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