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  1. #1
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Default This is what a proper total re-balance looks like in MMOs.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96750

    This is a result of:
    1. Set benchmark for sustained DPS
    2. Set benchmark for burst DPS
    3. Set benchmark for sustained recovery
    4. Set benchmark for burst recovery
    5. State intended goals for specific abilities (is this burst DPS or sustained DPS etc)
    6. Set benchmarks for hits-to-kill for power (burst) builds against different mitigation subsets
    7. Set benchmarks for time-to-kill for condition (DOT, sustained DPS) builds.
    8. Set benchmark for ease of use for utility (longer/shorter cast, longer/shorter cooldown etc)
    9-?? Im sure theres more...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  2. #2
    Community Member Sythe777's Avatar
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    Lol. As someone who has 8k hours in gw2, it's just anet doing a leap of faith. They have no idea what they're doing over there. They're nerfing all power damage in favor of cc, causing condi damage to be the main source of damage which is more of the same between mirage and scourge.

    No game is perfect in balance, but gw2 is definitely not something this game or it's devs should look up to.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sythe777 View Post
    Lol. As someone who has 8k hours in gw2, it's just anet doing a leap of faith. They have no idea what they're doing over there. They're nerfing all power damage in favor of cc, causing condi damage to be the main source of damage which is more of the same between mirage and scourge.

    No game is perfect in balance, but gw2 is definitely not something this game or it's devs should look up to.
    Not true at all.

    Calling something a leap of faith when it has specific stated benchmarks is rofl. Whats DDOs specific stated benchmark?

    No game has literal perfect balance, but g2w's model for balancing is light years ahead of whats happening in DDO. Its not a model GW2 invented, they just use it.

    Examples:

    They specifically state they want DOTs (condi) to be sustained DPS so they nerf the amount of stacks per cast and raise the duration.

    They specifically state they want to enforce a trade off between utility and DPS so they severely nerf the strike damage on utility abilities such as CC. If you need to use a CC in the middle of a DPS burst this will lower the overall DPS.

    Its far easier to provide these guys feedback because we have specific stated benchmarks to compare to.
    Last edited by Chai; 02-04-2020 at 08:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  4. #4
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Not true at all.

    Calling something a leap of faith when it has specific stated benchmarks is rofl. Whats DDOs specific stated benchmark?

    No game has literal perfect balance, but g2w's model for balancing is light years ahead of whats happening in DDO. Its not a model GW2 invented, they just use it.
    If another MMO has only a dozen classes to balance against each other, then benchmarks like this are a lot easier to balance.

    I still think that some level of balance is important in a game, but I also recognize that it's a much MUCH harder task for DDO because there are thousands of different options that you can build (most of which are garbage, but they're still options) because you can pick multiple classes for one character.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If another MMO has only a dozen classes to balance against each other, then benchmarks like this are a lot easier to balance.

    I still think that some level of balance is important in a game, but I also recognize that it's a much MUCH harder task for DDO because there are thousands of different options that you can build (most of which are garbage, but they're still options) because you can pick multiple classes for one character.
    Something I've learned playing using G.I.M.P. (First life, no ship, no extras, 3 random classes and only what you find) rules for a few years is that there are actually a lot of "good" options and much fewer "bad" ones when you approach the game from a group view point vs an individual view point.

    For me there in lies the additional complexity. They are not only balancing builds on an individual contribution but builds on a group contribution.

  6. #6
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Having more options supports the need for specifically stated benchmarks, as there is more of a chance of an outlier, or two, or twelve.

    Gw2 might appear to have less options, but there are enough trait lines with differing themes where each "profession" can still play all roles, save for an exception or two (like thieves as a healer would by subpar as an example)

    It would be easier to provide DDO feedback after a preview if we knew what T1 DPS should look like, and what the trade offs should look like. If told the FvS should be T3 DPS, how far back is that from T1? 10%, 30% etc...what are you trading to get the ability to push one button and heal from near zero to full, and instant kill some stuff. Without those benchmarks, the adjustments made lack context.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  7. #7
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If another MMO has only a dozen classes to balance against each other, then benchmarks like this are a lot easier to balance.

    I still think that some level of balance is important in a game, but I also recognize that it's a much MUCH harder task for DDO because there are thousands of different options that you can build (most of which are garbage, but they're still options) because you can pick multiple classes for one character.
    devs don't have to anticipate every possible build permutation though, give players a month and they'll find it for them

    imo the problems DDO has vs. GW2 is that players successfully do so and devs insist balance is still there, devs use private benchmarks (and no player pro- or anti- any change has even been able to muster a guess at what they could be), and the involvement of P2P builds. all of these really crank up the suspicion and resentment factors, and all of them are very easily avoidable

  8. #8

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    A simple intuitive benchmark too is valid, and is what the players mention here

    It took forumites all of 5 minutes to realize how powerful inquisitive was before even playing it and knowing that a single xbow was going to make it more so. Why did the devs take so long?

    IPS never made sense to me so I like the nerf. I do not think a bolt or arrow should go through a target and do any damage at all to another unless 1) it passes through soft tissue only like a throat or something or 2) passes through a soft opponent like a G Cube. So for me IPS should not even exist; let a ranged weapon penetrate an opponent maybe on a vorpal and then do a small amount of damage to the chump
    standing too close behind them.

    I do not like the nerf to faster sneaking stacking
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  9. #9
    Community Member DaviMOC's Avatar
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    I dont think DDO is lacking on benchmark( but still a good thing to have). Is the time to take action on heavily imbalance issues that trows an alert.

    Imbalance came from an issue to a feature. No one really expects perfect balance but the imbalance levels we cyclic achieve on DDO its impressive. Also asymmetric balance is very desirable and easier to work on.
    For the time those issues are here people gets used to it and will be very angry when a year or a couple of years later they decide to manage it.


    Some may argue about the complexity of balancing the many possibilities we have building characters in DDO, but the issues mostly resides in only one aspect of a class usually a given tree, that is easy and simple to achieve and detect.
    No special builds and combinations for "secret" combo are needed in most of those scenarios.

    Inquisitive for instance I've said it before, it was broken and abused even before the prestige tree arrived. We are having issues with Xbows since enhancment trees revamps and xbow animation "fix".( who remembers those god xbow pallys with Holy sword?)

    The "alpha" version of inquisitive tree was built long before it and used on a splash of artificer/fighter/rogue.
    It was weaker than the inquisitive tree is(and more restrictive as it required some classes) but still "overpowered" and abused for PL farming. Instead of fixing it the actions taken were to enforce this play style, bringing a even stronger and less restrictive version of it.
    More than a year passed to start talking about changing something on it. A long time passed before bringing warlocks to a reasonable level too.

    The main issue IMO is how long heavily broken stuff that everyone talks and knows about is allowed to run around that usually defeats the purpose of many other classes and play styles, as much benchmarks are desirable for finer tuning the issues usually are very clear discarding the need for such detailed bench =).

    Edit: Also wanted to add how that was done there. Every class and play style done at the same time, that's a huge point as you hardly gonna be able to balance something without breaking something else by isolating each class/ playstyle as are done here . Sadly I know its due to our dev team size and need to speed up some results and little can be done about it.
    Last edited by DaviMOC; 02-06-2020 at 08:04 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    If no detailed benchmark is needed, then what do you nerf/buff to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  11. #11
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    It's like people have never heard of balance changes to change the meta for the sake of replayability and refresh game feel.
    For those who don't know, this is the model that e.g. WoW or League of Legends use. I'm sure DoTA and many other super popular games do as well.

    In essence, you want to upset the balance not for the sake of the perfectly balanced game, but to make new things interesting so that players will have fun trying new things, experiencing new meta builds, etc. This is how you make a game last, and I for one am glad the devs here either understand this method, or blindly stumble into it with their balancing.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I'm all for changing the META how ever often they want, if it is easy to respec, costs nothing to do so, and can be done at any time not in a quest.

    I logged into GW2 after their largest balance patch, pulled up a character build page, rebuilt the entire character, then went and played their PVP and WVW modes, then repeated this over and over with multiple characters until each had two different builds saved.

    The issue I have with "shaking up the meta" simply for the purpose of replay-ability in the context of DDO is we dont have this luxury. If I am playing through a TR and am at level 11, I now have to play through a minimum of 9 levels on a nerfed platform, or buy a heart to re-do the character. The re-do better not have any mistakes, as there is no tweaking allowed without a feat respec or another heart.

    Even when balancing to shake up the meta for replay-ability, there still needs to be a benchmark in place. WOW, LOL and DOTA do not simply go H.A.M without a plan on their stale metas, simply to shake things up a bit. Neither did GW2. They went in with a stated plan, known by the players, and posted well in advance. This helps the players provide accurate feedback, when they know what the target is.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-05-2020 at 03:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  13. #13
    Community Member DaviMOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If no detailed benchmark is needed, then what do you nerf/buff to?
    Oh chai, sorry. Missed your reply.

    Benchmark is good. Just said I dont think thats the real problem with DDO balance.
    I do believe they have some sort of benchmarking, they just dont need to disclose any details. How good it is we never know as details are not given. But gotta be fairly good. In the end they have access to the code, the dev kit and the capability of setting monitoring and debug tools much better than our videos and calculators. I do feel like you understimate DDO's team quite alot. Since the first time I saw you in the forums back when reaper mechanics was introduced the talk is always the same, how ddo is badly developed as each update , change or new mechanics introduced is a excuse to say/point out how badly it is developed specially comparing to GW2. Give it some credits in the end you're still here after so many years, with so many supposed missed balls. They gotta be doing something right . You cant be waiting for so much time...

    Also bringing GW2 to the light all the time, that got old. Thats a great game, but it is a very different game with different goals, core points and aimed playerbase. At the frequency you bring it as much as you make valid points people starts to be more resistant to it. In the end you never made your full transfer to it and DDO keeps bringing you back. For instance I hated it for the exact reasons you usually bring it, how the endgame is done there so you hardly gonna make any point with me using it. There is something you find here that you dont there, let both be what they are so you can keep both instead of only one .

    The real evil in our balance IMO is the time taken for a fix or any sort of effort on fixing compared to how big some balance issues are. If its deliberate for any given or shady purpose, lack of resourses or man power I dont know. From a player perspective I just feel it takes too much time that when a fix comes it looks more like a break in the game ecosystem as people got used to it. Players gets used to exploring the balance weak spots and we end up completly ignoring some classes, class trees or entire playstyles while everyone keeps playing the same build or variants of it that shouldnt be perfoming at a given level.

    Am I right? Dont know. Just a player input there that as you also walked in many other mmos too.
    Last edited by DaviMOC; 03-06-2020 at 04:06 PM.

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