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  1. #261
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Outside of Lay on Hands, Paladin heals are lame: They're too feat starved to take Maximize/Empower/Empower Heal, and cap out with CSW.
    This is largely dependent on how you gear. A paladin build that is DPS or Tank is perfectly capable of getting Sacred Ground to hit for over 1000. Even more if you use the Legendary Silverthread Belt + Commendation Potion and the +25 Alchemical Potion. This heal is capable of carrying other melee DPS in R10. I've also crit for 1500-2500 with cure moderate wounds and no metamagic feats so I wouldn't say that paladin heals are totally lame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    And for hands you can get similar results going Aasimar without being tied to a specific class, or Cocoon.
    The amount of healing from Healing Hands is going from 40 x Wisdom Bonus to 20 x Wisdom Bonus in U45 so it won't be as viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Saves are mostly pointless in the game unless you're a tank, or a rogue rolling through traps to get a trap box on the other side. If a quest or raid required paladin-level saves, then it's overturned and would be called out by the community as such.
    The community doesn't really call out R10 scaled saves because it's R10 and the hardest difficulty available. Also there are a few elite traps with a save DC around 120.
    Last edited by Alcides; 02-02-2020 at 09:59 PM.

  2. #262
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    [snip] Divine Might as it stands currently is very dangerous (the example I worked with would mean that a single button would confer a 108 damage bonus which seems just a little high for the AP cost).

    Divine Might is also very splashable, which would mean if we continue to add power to it, it doesn't help Paladins - it helps people splashing paladin for Divine Might. We can absolutely recoup DPS in other ways, ways that help Paladins - instead of ways that help everyone who uses THF, Paladins sometimes but not always included.
    I'm raiding more than leveling right now. DM giving something like +108 strikes me as kinda the minimum that would make a THF pally a viable/useful damage dealer in Nemesis or THTH or KT. I haven't mathed out all the Melee power curves, but we're here because the status quo isn't close to good enough, right?

    I like the suggestion of tying it to lore feats if you're worried about barba-clerics or similar splashes. And you still have to have a high CHA to get a big boost out of it, which is a build/itemization cost.

    DM actually adding strength is also a useful feature for things like pulling STR-locked levers in Tempest Spine.

    So I'd much prefer that rather than "recouping it in other ways," you left it at STR.
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  3. #263
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpardaX View Post
    He's literally just saying what the release notes say. He's not answering your question with his opinion. He's answering your question with the official opinion. This next part is me pasting words out of the actual notes on the Dev OP out of the "list of goals"

    Move abilities in the tree that augment Paladin feats out of tiers where you don't have the feat yet (Remove Disease, Turn Undead, etc)

    And so, when do you get Turn Undead? Level 4. What level do you need to be to use Tier 4 abilities? Level 4.
    It's there to make sure you can't get it until you can use it. As per the Official Dev designed "List of goals"

    Now I agree with you that it maybe is not strong enough to warrant Tier 4. But that IS the Dev Official answer.
    Re: "It's there to make sure you can't get it until you can use it." This also has the effect of making it hard to splash- getting a T4 ability means you're 20-something points into the tree.

    So it comes off the list of something 2- or 3-splashes can ever access, or even something that a build invested in another tree could use when running Shadow Crypt or the Orchard quests.

    Turn is already moderately hard to achieve usefulness with, and this raises the costs up into the quixotic flavor-build zones.

    I hope making turn ineffective wasn't on the "List of Goals," so I'm taking this as an unintended consequence.
    Don't be a figjam.

  4. #264
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    Default Summon Warhorse?

    Since paladins are being worked on and mounts are now in the game, is there any chance we'll finally be seeing our warhorses?

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    The amount of healing from Healing Hands is going from 40 x Wisdom Bonus to 20 x Wisdom Bonus in U45 so it won't be as viable.
    Quick aside, it's actually going from 40 max to 30 max - there is a built in 10 level buffer that is not changing.
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  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick aside, it's actually going from 40 max to 30 max - there is a built in 10 level buffer that is not changing.
    So it's still the same power level as Paladin's Lay on Hands, just available for free to any level 1 player on any other class?

    Healing Hands is a huge problem in the community because it makes Aasimar the absolute best race for pretty much anything. Racial AP's can be earned through Racial Past loves so there is little to no cost to getting a large pile of Healing Hands that grows with character level. It's also why you see so many people put points in Falconry for Wisdom Attack / Damage, they can then just pile on Wisdom and use it as both an offensive and Defense stat. Paladin's on the other hand need to spend a limited pile of Class AP, of which they will only get 80 of regardless of build, to get more LoH charges.

    Anyhow, welcome back from the weekend break of anything-but-DDO stuff. Any chance you could provide an update on increasing Paladin's Damage / Attack by 15~25 around level 29. That's the amount it's losing right now from DM being hard nerfed. The nerf isn't so big around level 20 but gets extreme at level 29 when we get access to legendary gear with it's massive stat bonus's. KoTC as a melee tree works pretty well up until 20 when all the other class's trees skyrocket. The fixes proposed so far actually seem to balance it with the rest, around level 20. Unfortunately this game goes all the way to 30 and itemization really favors the other DPS builds as they aren't limited by a maximum caster level of 15-20 on everything or static bonus's.
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  7. #267
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    So it's still the same power level as Paladin's Lay on Hands, just available for free to any level 1 player on any other class?

    Healing Hands is a huge problem in the community because it makes Aasimar the absolute best race for pretty much anything.
    Yo, buy Aasimar, yo.

    Why on earth do you think there needs to balance between all races? I expect races I have to pay for to be significantly better than free ones.
    Last edited by Arkat; 02-03-2020 at 12:36 PM.
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  8. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    So it's still the same power level as Paladin's Lay on Hands, just available for free to any level 1 player on any other class
    Racial enhancement cores have level restrictions. You can't get the last core until level 16.

    Healing Hands is a huge problem in the community because it makes Aasimar the absolute best race for pretty much anything.
    For WIS based builds, Aasimar has great synergy. There is no "best race for pretty much anything".

    Using hyperbole to draw attention to incorrect assumptions isn't benefitting your position.
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  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Racial enhancement cores have level restrictions. You can't get the last core until level 16.


    For WIS based builds, Aasimar has great synergy. There is no "best race for pretty much anything".

    Using hyperbole to draw attention to incorrect assumptions isn't benefitting your position.
    You get Healing Hands at level 1, the cores just give you more charges.

    Yes there is a "best race", it's Aasimar. They could give it -2 to all stats and it would still be the "best race" for the singular reason that it lets anyone, anywhere, self heal for large amounts of HP without needing to have any divine casting or other class based healing ability. I could see it if this ability was a T4 racial ability but level 1 core is way overpowered.

    Someone could be a 20 Fighter/10 Epic Aasimar, 8 in starting wisdom and sharn gear will heal themselves for

    Before
    (10+30) * 14 * 2.75 = 1540 HP

    After Update
    (10+20) * 14 * 2.75 = 1155 HP

    And this is me be incredibly conservative, as in that fighter has a single Leg Celestial Topaz Ring with Wisdom +21 as their only Wisdom enhancement. Now in reality someone with access to that kind of healing is going to be putting as much effort as reasonably possible to jack that value up. If they are running 12 AP (11 AP +1 Free Universal AP) in falconry they will instead be running with 82~90 WIS as their primary damage stat giving them.

    Before
    (10+30) * 36 * 2.75 = 3960 HP

    After Update
    (10+20) * 36 * 2.75 = 2970 HP

    With racial PL's, reaper points and tweaking we can hit well over 92, almost 100 so it looks like this instead.

    Before
    (10+30) * 42 * 2.75 = 4620 HP

    After Update
    (10+20) * 42 * 2.75 = 3465 HP

    It's straight up pay-to-win type power, granted at level 1.

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Aasimar_enhancements

    Level 1 Core: Stronger Bonds +1 Healing Hands
    Level 7 Core: Stronger Bonds +2 Healing Hands
    Level 16 Core: Stronger Bonds +3 Healing Hands

    Total cost .... 7 AP, 7 freaking AP.

    Every other powerful racial ability requires 12~17 AP to reach, this one is practically being handed out. Anyone who isn't running racial PL's would be stupid for not using Aasimar. The only exceptions are casters since they aren't likely to take much damage anyway, they run Dragonborn or Tiefling for obvious reasons.
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  10. #270
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    Now lets look at the other races for comparisons to just how insanely OP Aasimar is.

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Dwarf

    Level 1 Core: Dwarven Toughness: You gain 10 HP.
    Level 7 Core: Dwarven Toughness: You gain 10 HP.
    Level 16 Core: Dwarven Toughness: You gain 10 HP.

    Hmm ... 30 HP or ... the ability to instantly heal thousands of HP.

    Halfling

    Level 1 Core: Halfling Luck : +1 to all Saving Throws
    Level 7 Core: Halfling Luck : +1 to all Saving Throws
    Level 16 Core: Halfling Luck : +1 to all Saving Throws

    Hmm ... +3 Saving Throws or ... the ability to instantly heal thousands of HP.

    Gnome

    Level 1 Core: Gnomish Perseverance : +1 Dodge, +1 Use Magic Device
    Level 7 Core: Gnomish Perseverance: +1 Dodge, +1 Use Magic Device
    Level 16 Core: Scrolls: Retain Essence: You gain a 15% racial bonus to your odds of retaining a copy of a Scroll when using it.
    +2 Dodge, +1 Use Magic Device

    Hmm ... +3 UMD and a small chance to not burn one of your 99 scrolls or ... the ability to instant heal thousands of HP.

    Wood Elf

    Level 1 Core: Elven Accuracy I: You gain +2% to hit with all attacks. Your Point Blank Shot and Ranged Sneak Attack range is increased by 2 meters for each Elven Core Ability you possess from this tree.
    Level 7 Core: Elven Accuracy II: You gain +2% to hit with all attacks.
    Level 16 Core: Elven Accuracy III: You gain +2% to hit with all attacks.

    Wow ... a whole +6% accuracy, which is really just 5% due to how the D20 system works, or the ability to instantly heal thousands of HP.

    Even Dragonborn and Tiefling have to go much higher in their tree to get anything that might, if held sideways, appear to be a pale comparison to what Healing Hands is.

    So there is no possible argument that Aasimar isn't horrifically Over Powered, far more then Inquisitive even.

    What needs to happen is healing hands gets moved to where Improved Recovery is except as a T2,T3,T4 slot that costs 2 AP each. Put Improved Recovery as the cores for +10 Heal Amp for 1 AP each.
    Last edited by palladin9479; 02-03-2020 at 01:50 PM.
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  11. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick aside, it's actually going from 40 max to 30 max - there is a built in 10 level buffer that is not changing.
    Hey Lyn - any thoughts on some of the feedback/suggestions in here since Preview 2 closed?
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Hey Lyn - any thoughts on some of the feedback/suggestions in here since Preview 2 closed?
    We're actively working on THF, and when we have something concrete to commit to you'll all be the first to hear of it. Right now we would like to avoid promising things that are either a balance overreaction or a technical infeasibility. You are more than welcome to continue to provide constructive and passionate feedback, and we appreciate everyone who does so.
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  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We're actively working on THF, and when we have something concrete to commit to you'll all be the first to hear of it. Right now we would like to avoid promising things that are either a balance overreaction or a technical infeasibility. You are more than welcome to continue to provide constructive and passionate feedback, and we appreciate everyone who does so.
    Yes and is there any consideration to KoTC? We don't need exact details, just to know if you guys are going to do something more or should we just accept what's already been posted as the approximate of what KoTC is getting?

    Last week there was some really production conversation and it looked like you guys were thinking to add something to compensate for the big DPS loss of Divine Might being nerfed.
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  14. #274
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We're actively working on THF, and when we have something concrete to commit to you'll all be the first to hear of it. Right now we would like to avoid promising things that are either a balance overreaction or a technical infeasibility. You are more than welcome to continue to provide constructive and passionate feedback, and we appreciate everyone who does so.
    What is the best way to provide feedback on the thrown weapon bugs that I found so that they will be useful for a dev to look at when there is time?

    Or is THF taking enough attention currently that I should save the thrown weapon bug reporting for after U45 is released? (serious question - I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this. I know that the THF changes are a lot of work)
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  15. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Now lets look at the other races for comparisons to just how insanely OP Aasimar is.
    I wouldn't choose Aasimar as an Alchemist, Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard or Warlock. That's nine classes where Aasimar is nowhere near the "best" choice.

    Aasimar is the "best" choice for Fighter and Monk who choose to invest heavily into Falconry (28 AP). Aasimar is the "best" choice for Cleric, Druid and FvS, but not because of Healing Hands. Aasimar is a good choice for Ranger.
    Last edited by Carpone; 02-03-2020 at 02:33 PM.
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  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    What is the best way to provide feedback on the thrown weapon bugs that I found so that they will be useful for a dev to look at when there is time?

    Or is THF taking enough attention currently that I should save the thrown weapon bug reporting for after U45 is released? (serious question - I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this. I know that the THF changes are a lot of work)
    Bug reports are always useful.
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  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I wouldn't choose Aasimar as an Alchemist, Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard or Warlock. That's nine classes where Aasimar is nowhere near the "best" choice.

    Aasimar is the "best" choice for Fighter and Monk who choose to invest heavily into Falconry (28 AP). Aasimar is the "best" choice for Cleric, Druid and FvS, but not because of Healing Hands. Aasimar is a good choice for Ranger.
    That's just you trying to distract and hide the abuse you do.

    No two ways about it, Aasimar is the best race in the game by a huge margin.

    Anyhow this is outside the scope of this thread, other then Aasimar renders LoH pretty useless.
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  18. #278
    Community Member Palna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    • Replaced With: Ascendacy: +2 to hit and damage with all weapons. An additional +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. You gain 15% Fortification Bypass. Whenever you attack an undead or evil outsider with a Favored Weapon, you gain a stack of Blessed Purpose: +3 Sacred Bonus to Melee and Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. You can acquire up to 15 stacks by continuing to attack Undead or Evil Outsiders. Switching to a non-Favored Weapon will reset your stacks.
    Imo there's still a few issues with KotC being to niche. This in particular still feels like a wasted opportunity, it's undead and evil outsider only and it doesn't stack with Divine Crusader's Celestial Fervor. Should be changed to similar functionality as the core's and be on hit evil and undead creatures. Same goes for the rolled in Passion functionality, and the Censure Demons/Outsiders enhancements.

    I fully agree that the healing argument doesn't hold water anymore, with the introduction of Aasimar you made LoH a common feature for all classes that want to use it... There's just no reason to not put Paladins on par with Fighters in my oppinion.

    BTW, can you please fix the Sanctified Fervor bug (the one where it doesn't actually activate) with this update? That would also help quite a bit.

  19. #279
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I wouldn't choose Aasimar as an Alchemist, Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard or Warlock. That's nine classes where Aasimar is nowhere near the "best" choice.

    Aasimar is the "best" choice for Fighter and Monk who choose to invest heavily into Falconry (28 AP). Aasimar is the "best" choice for Cleric, Druid and FvS, but not because of Healing Hands. Aasimar is a good choice for Ranger.
    Aasimar is the best choice for anyone who goes "OH NO! I NEED HEALING!!!" in the middle of a quest and doesn't have a button attached to their class or Epic Destiny to get that healing.

    (And I'd consider UMD at level 11+ to count as that kind of healing ability, so Sorcerer, Warlock, and anyone with UMD class skill doesn't necessarily need Aasimar)
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  20. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Bug reports are always useful.
    Unfortunately bug reports are a black hole -- they don't offer a way to have a dialogue. DDO is a complicated game, and developer intent isn't always obvious. Public forum discussion provides insight that's incorporated into each player's understanding of the game.
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