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  1. #61
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    "Follow-Through's Tumble buff now grants +25% Strikethrough Chance (replacing its previous ability to hit additional targets)"


    do we really need a staff nerf?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    Now, as per previous dev statements, you can’t use Nature’s Defense and glancing/strikethrough, so it can be assuredly assumed that a bear that is going for glancing/strikethrough is trying to deal damage.
    Worth noting, the Strikethrough restriction with Bear form is with the Defensive Fighting feat, not any defensive stance (such as Nature's Defense). Bears can absolutely Strikethrough while in Nature's Defense. This restriction was carried forward from the original implementation where Defensive Fighting would disable Glancing Blows.
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  3. #63
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Worth noting, the Strikethrough restriction with Bear form is with the Defensive Fighting feat, not any defensive stance (such as Nature's Defense). Bears can absolutely Strikethrough while in Nature's Defense. This restriction was carried forward from the original implementation where Defensive Fighting would disable Glancing Blows.
    Will bear innate attacks like great maul work with strikethrough?
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  4. #64
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Worth noting, the Strikethrough restriction with Bear form is with the Defensive Fighting feat, not any defensive stance (such as Nature's Defense). Bears can absolutely Strikethrough while in Nature's Defense. This restriction was carried forward from the original implementation where Defensive Fighting would disable Glancing Blows.
    ok, i totally miss-understood this ability. I erroneously thought that Natures Defense and Ursa's Protector would disable strikethrough. Hearing that defensive fighting (the free-granted feet) is what disables strikethrough makes me happy. Does combat expertise (since its a continuation of defensive fighting) disable glancing blows?

  5. #65
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Worth noting, the Strikethrough restriction with Bear form is with the Defensive Fighting feat, not any defensive stance (such as Nature's Defense). Bears can absolutely Strikethrough while in Nature's Defense. This restriction was carried forward from the original implementation where Defensive Fighting would disable Glancing Blows.
    Ah, whoops. My mistake.

  6. #66
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fauxknight View Post
    I see more damage while THF to make up for their loss of glancing blows against a single target, but bears (and bastard sword/dwarven waraxe) don't seem to be addressed here, they are still taking an outright single target damage loss with these changes...and they still get that overall multitarget damage loss except when fighting precisely 2 mobs. There are literally no changes for non-THF glancing blow users in this newer update compared to the last one.
    Quote Originally Posted by xTethx View Post
    So bears and bsword/daxe users get shafted on the x3 modifier? Also bears cant benefit from Perfect two handed fighting strike thru %?
    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post
    Please give these two weapons something. I just played a pure Figther Kensei/Vanguard, 41 pts Kensei, 31 pts Vanguard. I went with the bastard sword. This is an awful build style and needs some serious help. They may not get all the boosts that THF gets, but they need something. Without some help it's a flavor build, a bad flavor....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    OK, 3x stat mod to bswd/daxes plus a shield is too much.
    But, if possible make these weapons benefit at least from the first feat (2x stat mod).

    S&B are losing single target damage here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    I'm really struggling to see the bright side of these changes. Sure, Strikethrough might be more interesting and useful than glancing blows (especially for leveling), but holistically this all seems like a step backwards.

    -Dwarvern axe/Bastard Sword is getting straight nerfed with no compensation.
    -Non-crit based effects builds will likely either lose single target dps or barely break even with live numbers (AKA still significantly behind their TWF/SWF counterparts)
    -The new reworked KOTC has no synergy with THF now (losing all the bonus dice on glancing blows)
    -Kensai/Barbarian builds might actually be over-buffed (don't quote me on this, but its possible)
    -Don't get me started on the animation changes.. (to be fair I won't comment until I've tested this)

    Is the goal here to make THF the style choice for brain-dead barbarians only? (not that there's anything wrong with brain-dead barbarians ) Seriously though, I don't understand why these changes seem to be focused on providing the already best performing THF builds (Kensai/Barbs) with a massive buff, but leaving everything else behind (or even nerfed).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    So we're down from "two targets per hit", i.e. 100% strikethrough, to 25%? Why? Acrobats aren't exactly top dps builds, and this is a capstone, it's supposed to be powerful!


    What about bastard swords?

    Also, why the nerf to one-and-a-half weapons? S&B is probably the weakest style right now...
    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    How does Qstaff speed compare to "Great Weapon" THF speed, then? Or at least how is it intended to? If Qstaff was innately like 20% faster, that would create a lot of utility for the classes that are meant to use it - e.g. Rogue, Wizard - because they can stack proc-on-hit damage like Sneak and Spellsword more effectively, even though the base physical DPS is rather low. Likewise Henshins can build Ki faster for their special attacks.



    Well so much for hand-and-a-half builds lol...

    We're back to the math of HaH using THF for 100% strikethrough, vs HaH with SWF for 30% attack speed and 1.5x stat-to-dmg, with base 20% Strikethrough (plus enhancements and PTHF in Epic). I'm pretty sure SWF will win in most practical situations; the faster attacks and higher base damage make up for fewer strikethroughs, and are useful in ALL situations, not just "exactly two enemies in range" situations. Sure, that means you cant use a Shield...but SM/ISM dont really make up for 30% speed/1.5x, and its two extra feats.

    Maybe SM/ISM need a little buff to keep S&B HaH feasible without giving them the 3x stat of THF. Not like S&B is anywhere close to OP right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathmaster35 View Post
    We were being told that these changes are around making two handed fighting distinct and area damage focused(which is what it was before) yet these changes are making it less distinct as it is like a mimic of two weapon fighting where your offhand hits a second target instead of the same target again, and lowering the area damage.

    Is the real purpose behind these changes just to nerf two handed fighting because people were able to do area damage with it and you want that limited to only be a caster thing? The changes end result seem to be about bring two handed fighting down in damage except when fighting two targets, lowering single target damage and removing area damage; and to remove bastard sword and dwarven waraxe as viable weapons to use. The changes also seem to imply druid bears were too good and needed a serious nerf...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganak View Post
    Yes, please address please!
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    There are tanks and sword and board dps. Issue with your theory is that sword and board dps are trading far too much dps for far too little defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    So I’m a little concerned as to the changes to THF from Glancing Blows to Strikethrough as a whole, but this second preview makes me feel there are some issues with the design.

    Let’s talk about the first and foremost change: we’re going from X (potentially infinite assuming hitboxes lined up perfectly) targets to a hard limit of 3 targets. Outside of higher skull reaper on Live, this looks like a nerf. However, if we’re talking higher skulls, then Strikethrough being full damage is actually a buff, but only when considering reaper due to the target limit.

    Additionally, this limit problem is made worse by the fact unique features are being removed from certain trees (Thief Acrobat) to make this more of a blanket change. If anything, you should take the feature from Thief Acrobat and expand it to other trees that are by design considered THF. And perhaps keep/change Followthrough to be an additional Strikethrough attack separate of the hard limit. Meaning that when the stars align and all requirements are met, a Thief Acrobat could hit 4 targets max at a time.

    Another suggestion is to give Greater Rage (the Barbarian Feat) +1 Strikethrough attack when THF so that every barbarian gets to hit 4 targets if they also meet the requirements. Additionally, add +1 Strikethrough attack to Focus Wide from Frenzied Berserker to further emphasize the THF theme of that tree.

    In addition to that, you could give +1 Strikethrough attack to the following trees: KotC, Vanguard, Battle Engineer, Nature’s Protector, Warchanter, Henshin Mystic, Kensai, Fury, Divine Crusader, and Legendary Dreadnaught. And Fatesinger, assuming we want to add one THF option per sphere. Make them 12+ higher cores or T5 enhancements.

    Now, regarding the new 3x stat multiplier, this is a good change for making up the loss of single target damage from the glancing blow removal. However, by not giving similar stat multipliers to Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, and Bears, they are all left in bad spots.

    Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes in particular have to invest an extra feat to pick up proficiency. They then have to be played with a shield, and while shield bashes exist, they aren’t universally appealing. Only Fighters and Paladins have access to Vanguard (which really should be a universal tree at this point as it revolves around a singular combat style), and even then, shield bashes don’t make up for the comparative DPS loss compared to live. While you may be hesitant to give hand and half weapons the full 3x stat damage like normal THF, I’d offer that it would be worth trying and testing with player data and feedback than simply writing it off. Though 2.5x could also be nice.

    Now for bears. Bears are sitting as the worst-off member of the 'glancing blows to strikethrough' club. They aren’t getting the 3x multiplier it seems, and they’re picking up less strikethrough chance than other classes and enhancement trees. Bears are gonna need that 3x stat damage to compete.

    Raging damage-focused bears are in a bad position currently: they bring nothing unique or great to the table, they greatly lag behind wolf druids, and are the bottom of the barrel on melee DPS (from a damage perspective). To compound this issue, bears don’t benefit from the most appropriate epic destiny, which happens to be the destiny used for max strikethrough calculations. Bears can’t use Boulder’s Might (you clearly made this choice to prevent wolves from using it. Unfair to bears, but understandable from the 'wolves are OP' scare), bears don’t benefit fully from Strong Swings even if they are wielding a two-hander (so they always get 10MP instead of 25MP), and, last I tested, Bloodbath also didn’t work in bear form even if you met the weapon requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    No, NO YOU DON'T



    Agreed Ballrus. I'm afraid S&B isn't getting any love, AGAIN
    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post
    That's sort of the point of the whole vanguard tree. To hit stuff hard with your shield. Defensively, in heavy armor and large shield, my prr was less than or about the same as
    some light armor builds that I have used. This fighter build is Kensei/Vanguard with a bastard sword, it should do some decent dps since you are sinking at least 31 pts into a shield/dps
    tree. Unfortuneately bastard swords, are the bastards of the sword family, and shield attacks sort of suck...oh yeah, you have to take a feat to use the sword too... good lord
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwaric View Post
    So, any chance for any comment form othe devs on the apparent nerf of 1.5-hand weapons (Bastard Sword & Dwarven Waraxe)?
    Plenty of comments here agree that it is a big problem, yet there is no response yet.
    Please remeber that 1.5 wapons require:
    - proficiency feat
    - 3 THF feats
    Some people said S&B is for defense only. Well, if it is so, then you would not take the above 4 feats, just shield mastery and improved shield mastery. To get all, you need 6 feats (5 if dwarf or choosing helm deity). The investment is for better dps while keeping the defense. It is a trade-off. And as such, should be rewarded - not as much as true 2-handed wepons, but much more than just striketrough chance (melee power is not so big and does not stack with the one from shield mastery).
    Even now on live Longsword & Battle Axe with Knight's Training (1 feat) are better than Bastard Sword & Dwarven waraxe with all 4 feats. So, with 3 feats you get all the defense (shield mastery) and better dps than with 6 feats on bastard sword or Dwarven waraxe. Do not get me wrong though - Knight's Training is fine, the current changes are the problem.
    The 1.5 weapons are different, even if not best. I liked the flavour, so I continued to use Dwarven Waraxe. But the nerf is too big - I think I will switch to battle axe. As probably will do most of other 1.5-hand users. I doubt that is what was intended with the changes.
    And? Dev's?
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  7. #67
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    And? Dev's?
    It's almost like, and bear with me here, this change is supposed to help two-hand fighting build, not sword & board builds.

  8. #68
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    Still do not see the dev rational or have seen a dev address the really low strikethrough bonuses for the feats and the insanely overpriced enhancements or for the crazy cap on strike through. Also have not seen any dev address fixing cleaves (doublestrike, speed, adrenaline). Needing 4 feats to hit a second target 100% of the time is ridiculous. Capping at 3 targets is ridiculous (especially since it's not possible to hit......). Also haven't seen anything about some defensive changes, seeing as there is no statistical defensive difference between melee and ranged, despite melee taking way more hits.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    It's almost like, and bear with me here, this change is supposed to help two-hand fighting build, not sword & board builds.
    And he wants 1.5 h weapons addressed which is the 2hf chain.

  10. #70
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    It's almost like, and bear with me here, this change is supposed to help two-hand fighting build, not sword & board builds.
    The question isn't S&B, is Bastard Swords and Dwarf Axes sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    ...Raiding is pointless because gear will eventually be replaced by better gear. Past lives are forever and thus are the only character improvement that is worth the trouble of acquiring...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Worth noting that this ability literally never required you to be still. We did not change this at all. It always allowed movement, even on Lamannia 1.

    The confusion lies in this statement:

    you can only Strikethrough while standing still.

    Clearly the changes state that you can not Strikethrough whilst moving, and, according to other changes listed, this is only specifically nullified by taking the THF feat or being a Bear. Since most rangers are not Bears and don't plan on taking THF it was a valid question in both preview 1 and preview 2. Until DoD specifically calls out "will work while moving, even if you don't have the THF feat" then it will continue to be a source of confusion to many.

    TLDR the way the changes are written they say you can not move while using DoD.

  12. #72
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    The Strikethrough changes are a significant nerf to tank DPS. The testing I used was to clear the first 2 packs of mobs in Slavers Part 1 on R5 for comparison these are my results. The build used was a tank spec with Perfect Two Handed Fighting Comparing the same gear on two tank specs. I was wielding Divinity and Lunar Eclipse. Strike through needs some work because it's very underperformant compared to glancing blows from the old system which does more damage overall which was not what was advertised, and is a huge nerf to tank threat.

    Live: 2 min 18s
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    Lammania: 7 min 12s
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  13. #73
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    It's almost like, and bear with me here, this change is supposed to help two-hand fighting build, not sword & board builds.
    Then a simple "Yes it is our intention to nerf Bastard swords, Dwarvern Axe, Acrobat, Henshin, EK, Vile Chemist, and KOTC, while buffing the Barbarians and Kensais" would be sufficient.
    Thelanis

  14. #74
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Default Animations

    Overall the new animations seem disjointed. At first I thought this was just lag on lammania, but after further testing there are a few glaring issues. The 'swing sound' does not line up with the animation (this is most notable on the first moving animation) nor does it line up with when the hit actually lands on target. Its something like: 'swing sound' -> 0.2 seconds later -> sword swing animation -> 0.2 seconds later -> hit registers on target. Feels terrible. Also makes timing attacks on moving targets really difficult because you basically have to ignore both the sound and the animation. This could be my imagination, but the range seems shorter as well.

    Also, for those wondering, yes twitch fighting is dead. All swing speeds are roughly identical regardless of which animations you cancel.


    DPS test vs live: My THF EK (already a gimped flavor build) was seeing roughly equal dps on single target while standing still. Considering twitch fighting is gone, this means its a nerf relative to live. Glancing blows vs Strikethrough seems neither better nor worse, just different.
    Thelanis

  15. #75
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Default Beating a dead horse, 2-3 dead horses at best

    Strike-through seems like a really good mechanic, some of which is being implemented in a very exciting way.
    BUT
    BUT
    BUT
    Melee THF aoe has been nerfed pretty badly if there is:
    1. Such a low base number of targets
    2. A cap on the Strike-through chance percentage
    3. No look into the cleave mechanic

    I also have a concern regarding the x3 Ability modifier applying to two-handed weapons. This seems like too much. Maybe I'm wrong.
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  16. #76
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I also have a concern regarding the x3 Ability modifier applying to two-handed weapons. This seems like too much. Maybe I'm wrong.
    Yea, it'll make Barbarians Great Again, and leave the rest in the dust.

    I'd much rather see strikethrough chance doubled for the THF feats (and no cap), with the multiplier reverted to x2. Because as proposed, the change actually nerfs AOE damage while buffing single-target damage for a narrow subset of builds. I can almost see a new OP meta coming, with balance out of the window.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  17. #77
    Community Member Ahwaric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    The Strikethrough changes are a significant nerf to tank DPS. The testing I used was to clear the first 2 packs of mobs in Slavers Part 1 on R5 for comparison these are my results. The build used was a tank spec with Perfect Two Handed Fighting Comparing the same gear on two tank specs. I was wielding Divinity and Lunar Eclipse. Strike through needs some work because it's very underperformant compared to glancing blows from the old system which does more damage overall which was not what was advertised, and is a huge nerf to tank threat.

    Live: 2 min 18s
    +130 hit +74 damage

    Lammania: 7 min 12s
    +157 hit +92 damage
    Exactly. I was very excited that THF changes are coming. But what we got is not what was advertised. And if the changes should look like it currently is on preview 2, please, PLEASE, scap the whole THF part of the update 45 and leave glancing blows as it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Equally viable - which does not always mean equal in terms of damage. The goal is for players to be able to choose what they want to play and not feel overtly punished for that decision if they happen to favor a weapon type that lacks support.
    THIS. EXACTLY THIS. WITH MY WHOLE HEART THIS.
    I (and probably most of the people complaining on bastard swords & dwarven waraxe changes) do not expect that our chosen weapons to be the strongest possible option. Nor do I want to compete with dps of great axe vielding barbarian or TWF. But I want to be able to play my Dwarf using iconic weapon of the race, and do not feel that I should have taken another weapon. And I do not play R10, you may call me flower-sniffer (or OCD explorer/completer). And my wife really likes her bastard sword ("I want a big sword, but with shield, if possible" - just looks & the very idea, no meta here ).

    Currently we have total lack of support for the weapons in question in the U45 - and not even a single dev comment. So, the update improves 2-handed barbarians and maulers of Sylvanus, probably even too much (and out of the 2 characters I run, one uses maul, so I would benefit). But makes 1.5-handed users miserable. True 2-handed needs toning down slightly, and 1.5 needs a boost. Like giving 2-handed users 2 ability 0.5x multiplayer boosts (for the total of 2.5, including native +0.5), and 1.5 hand users one and a half, (for the total of 1.75). Just make it THF +0.25, ITHF +0.25, GTH +0.5, and then make only THF & GTH apply to 1.5 weapons. Or THF +0.25, ITHF +0.5, GTH +0.5 (total 2.75), and again, only THF & GTH apply to 1.5 weapons (total 1.75).
    I know it is proably too big of a thing for Lynnabel alone. But to any Higher Power out there - please, HEAR OUR PLEA!

    Edit: Btw, I won't be able to attend the live event tonight on Lammania. But someone should ask the Devs in person if we can't get the answer here.
    Last edited by Ahwaric; 01-29-2020 at 05:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  18. #78
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    DPS test vs live: My THF EK (already a gimped flavor build) was seeing roughly equal dps on single target while standing still. Considering twitch fighting is gone, this means its a nerf relative to live. Glancing blows vs Strikethrough seems neither better nor worse, just different.
    Any chance you can check animation speed / number of attacks per minute, etc? Right now we have at
    THF 80*(1.014^BAB tier) * (total alacrity*1.0327+1)
    THF-Twitch 90*(1.01685^BAB tier) * (Total alacrity*1.2763+1)

    Or for simplicity's sake, 30 bab, haste 15% THF standing @ ~103 attacks per minute
    30 bab, haste, thf twitch @ ~122 attacks per minute

    Where would you now put THF standing? Roughly.
    Formerly known as Absolute-Omniscience, co-creator of the old DPS calc.

  19. #79
    Community Member liston33's Avatar
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    Default Strike-Through

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    THF still not hitting enough things with this iteration. THF needs more AOE to be considered the AOE style

    The other changes look strong though I'm worried the power added to the top levels of THF is too much, already THF builds can crit over 200k (some people pulling in 600k, but those are edge cases)
    These changes significantly scale the damage potential of builds optimized around damage values that scale exponentially.

    Allowing trips/stuns etc to work with ST is an awesome change and helps open up the tactics fighter niche again.

    Once again, Strike-through as a mechanic needs to hit more things to be good.
    Possible solution? Strike-Through based off of BAB? Hits one target per 4 BAB, for a total of 7 enemies at level 28 for Barb, Fighter, Pally and Ranger?

  20. #80
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    Any chance you can check animation speed / number of attacks per minute, etc? Right now we have at
    THF 80*(1.014^BAB tier) * (total alacrity*1.0327+1)
    THF-Twitch 90*(1.01685^BAB tier) * (Total alacrity*1.2763+1)

    Or for simplicity's sake, 30 bab, haste 15% THF standing @ ~103 attacks per minute
    30 bab, haste, thf twitch @ ~122 attacks per minute

    Where would you now put THF standing? Roughly.
    I tried all forms of twitch fighting (canceling 2nd, 3rd and 4th animation) all tests were roughly 51 attacks for the duration of a reconstruct on BAB 15 paladin, so 102 attack per minute approx. I got 106 attacks per minute hasted @ BAB 30 with both greataxe and greatsword. So slightly faster if you stand still, slightly slower if you move around chasing mobs, and significantly slower twitch fighting(obviously)
    Thelanis

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