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  1. #41
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Does Dance of Death work while moving?
    Yes.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes.
    Are cleaves going to finally be affected by speed, doublestrike, and adrenaline? That would make them useful again.

  3. #43
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    S&B are losing single target damage here.
    Yes, please address please!
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  4. #44
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Question Seeker’s Strike bugged

    Seeker’s Strike (Occult Slayer t5) does not work at all. It consume charges but nothing happens...
    Please can you fix it?
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes.
    I am now happy.

    Well done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  6. #46
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Default S&B DPS nerf not a problem

    I understand people are concerned about S&B getting left in the dust, I'd like to point out that S&B is *meant* to be the worst DPS style by far, you trade a big dps loss for a large defensive benefit.
    If you play much higher reaper, especially r10 then you can already see good tanks really carving out their place in the meta as a super useful component of the party composition, often times coming in on the exp report with 0 kills and maximum saving sorcerers from Doom reapers.

    TLDR: S&B is fine doing low dps, if you wanted to hit things you would have picked a dps flavor
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    I am now happy.

    Well done.
    Worth noting that this ability literally never required you to be still. We did not change this at all. It always allowed movement, even on Lamannia 1.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  8. #48
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Default Not hitting enough stuff

    THF still not hitting enough things with this iteration. THF needs more AOE to be considered the AOE style

    The other changes look strong though I'm worried the power added to the top levels of THF is too much, already THF builds can crit over 200k (some people pulling in 600k, but those are edge cases)
    These changes significantly scale the damage potential of builds optimized around damage values that scale exponentially.

    Allowing trips/stuns etc to work with ST is an awesome change and helps open up the tactics fighter niche again.

    Once again, Strike-through as a mechanic needs to hit more things to be good.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I understand people are concerned about S&B getting left in the dust, I'd like to point out that S&B is *meant* to be the worst DPS style by far, you trade a big dps loss for a large defensive benefit.
    If you play much higher reaper, especially r10 then you can already see good tanks really carving out their place in the meta as a super useful component of the party composition, often times coming in on the exp report with 0 kills and maximum saving sorcerers from Doom reapers.

    TLDR: S&B is fine doing low dps, if you wanted to hit things you would have picked a dps flavor
    There are tanks and sword and board dps. Issue with your theory is that sword and board dps are trading far too much dps for far too little defense.

  10. #50
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I understand people are concerned about S&B getting left in the dust, I'd like to point out that S&B is *meant* to be the worst DPS style by far, you trade a big dps loss for a large defensive benefit.
    If you play much higher reaper, especially r10 then you can already see good tanks really carving out their place in the meta as a super useful component of the party composition, often times coming in on the exp report with 0 kills and maximum saving sorcerers from Doom reapers.

    TLDR: S&B is fine doing low dps, if you wanted to hit things you would have picked a dps flavor
    Large defensive benefit?

    What in the **** are you talking about?

    Man, do you know Vanguard? (check wiki)

    I´m talking about dps with shield, not tank!

    Nerf on single target damage, loss glancing blows (less hate), and need a FEAT to use!

    Dev's?
    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    ...Raiding is pointless because gear will eventually be replaced by better gear. Past lives are forever and thus are the only character improvement that is worth the trouble of acquiring...

  11. #51
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Issue with your theory is that sword and board dps are trading far too much dps for far too little defense.
    That's very reasonable, I think though the place to compensate S&B isn't with better DPS but with better tanking ability. If they received a slightly larger buff to PRR/MRR/AC/DR than currently live, if only scaling with the shield mastery feats they'd be in a very reasonable spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    There are tanks and sword and board dps.
    The point of my post was that sword&board dps is a fallacy, If you're holding a shield you shouldn't be remotely on par with some-one holding a two-handed weapon.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    So I’m a little concerned as to the changes to THF from Glancing Blows to Strikethrough as a whole, but this second preview makes me feel there are some issues with the design.

    Let’s talk about the first and foremost change: we’re going from X (potentially infinite assuming hitboxes lined up perfectly) targets to a hard limit of 3 targets. Outside of higher skull reaper on Live, this looks like a nerf. However, if we’re talking higher skulls, then Strikethrough being full damage is actually a buff, but only when considering reaper due to the target limit.

    Additionally, this limit problem is made worse by the fact unique features are being removed from certain trees (Thief Acrobat) to make this more of a blanket change. If anything, you should take the feature from Thief Acrobat and expand it to other trees that are by design considered THF. And perhaps keep/change Followthrough to be an additional Strikethrough attack separate of the hard limit. Meaning that when the stars align and all requirements are met, a Thief Acrobat could hit 4 targets max at a time.

    Another suggestion is to give Greater Rage (the Barbarian Feat) +1 Strikethrough attack when THF so that every barbarian gets to hit 4 targets if they also meet the requirements. Additionally, add +1 Strikethrough attack to Focus Wide from Frenzied Berserker to further emphasize the THF theme of that tree.

    In addition to that, you could give +1 Strikethrough attack to the following trees: KotC, Vanguard, Battle Engineer, Nature’s Protector, Warchanter, Henshin Mystic, Kensai, Fury, Divine Crusader, and Legendary Dreadnaught. And Fatesinger, assuming we want to add one THF option per sphere. Make them 12+ higher cores or T5 enhancements.

    Now, regarding the new 3x stat multiplier, this is a good change for making up the loss of single target damage from the glancing blow removal. However, by not giving similar stat multipliers to Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, and Bears, they are all left in bad spots.

    Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes in particular have to invest an extra feat to pick up proficiency. They then have to be played with a shield, and while shield bashes exist, they aren’t universally appealing. Only Fighters and Paladins have access to Vanguard (which really should be a universal tree at this point as it revolves around a singular combat style), and even then, shield bashes don’t make up for the comparative DPS loss compared to live. While you may be hesitant to give hand and half weapons the full 3x stat damage like normal THF, I’d offer that it would be worth trying and testing with player data and feedback than simply writing it off. Though 2.5x could also be nice.

    Now for bears. Bears are sitting as the worst-off member of the 'glancing blows to strikethrough' club. They aren’t getting the 3x multiplier it seems, and they’re picking up less strikethrough chance than other classes and enhancement trees. Bears are gonna need that 3x stat damage to compete.

    Raging damage-focused bears are in a bad position currently: they bring nothing unique or great to the table, they greatly lag behind wolf druids, and are the bottom of the barrel on melee DPS (from a damage perspective). To compound this issue, bears don’t benefit from the most appropriate epic destiny, which happens to be the destiny used for max strikethrough calculations. Bears can’t use Boulder’s Might (you clearly made this choice to prevent wolves from using it. Unfair to bears, but understandable from the 'wolves are OP' scare), bears don’t benefit fully from Strong Swings even if they are wielding a two-hander (so they always get 10MP instead of 25MP), and, last I tested, Bloodbath also didn’t work in bear form even if you met the weapon requirements.
    Last edited by Shedrakzo; 01-28-2020 at 08:13 PM.

  13. #53
    Community Member Razahe's Avatar
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    My main question about Strikethrough would be if the additional hits are also empowered by certain "buffs" like adrenaline or does this still only work on the main target?

    On a larger scale regarding balancing ranged vs melee it would be really nice if such empowered strikes work on all targets of an attack (Make cleaves great again ) and with doublestrike. Currently ranged attacks are completely empowered and hit multiple targets (4-hit IPS adrenaline "shoot later"-hit to infinity anyone?). Please dont take this as reason to nerf ranged any further, these are still tactical attacks with either quite high cooldowns or charges, but adding this kind of buff to melee in general would really improve the balancing imho and provide similar AoE capabilities as ranged toons have with this attacks.


    And separate topic: Fighter feels kind of left behind with all the strike through, a fighter, master of weapons, but no enhancements on strikethrough feels sad.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    That's very reasonable, I think though the place to compensate S&B isn't with better DPS but with better tanking ability. If they received a slightly larger buff to PRR/MRR/AC/DR than currently live, if only scaling with the shield mastery feats they'd be in a very reasonable spot.



    The point of my post was that sword&board dps is a fallacy, If you're holding a shield you shouldn't be remotely on par with some-one holding a two-handed weapon.
    It's easy:
    Open Google (or whatever search tool), type "ddo vanguard enhancement".

    Boom!

    Edit: Not asking to be on par with THF, asking for a compensation for the loss on single target damage.

    Some dev said that the goal was not nerf single damage, so...
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...alance-changes

    "For the two handed pass, it is not our intention to lower single target damage for two handed styles. We will be working to make sure that doesn’t happen."
    Last edited by Ballrus; 01-28-2020 at 06:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    ...Raiding is pointless because gear will eventually be replaced by better gear. Past lives are forever and thus are the only character improvement that is worth the trouble of acquiring...

  15. #55
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I understand people are concerned about S&B getting left in the dust, I'd like to point out that S&B is *meant* to be the worst DPS style by far, you trade a big dps loss for a large defensive benefit.
    If you play much higher reaper, especially r10 then you can already see good tanks really carving out their place in the meta as a super useful component of the party composition, often times coming in on the exp report with 0 kills and maximum saving sorcerers from Doom reapers.

    TLDR: S&B is fine doing low dps, if you wanted to hit things you would have picked a dps flavor

    No, NO YOU DON'T

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    Large defensive benefit?

    What in the **** are you talking about?

    Man, do you know Vanguard? (check wiki)

    I´m talking about dps with shield, not tank!

    Nerf on single target damage, loss glancing blows (less hate), and need a FEAT to use!

    Dev's?
    Agreed Ballrus. I'm afraid S&B isn't getting any love, AGAIN


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    Under no circumstances will tomorrow's work "fix lag".

  16. #56
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    Large defensive benefit?

    I´m talking about dps with shield, not tank!
    There are Defensive benefits to Shields that aren't just passives on the shield, They're mostly focused around actively blocking.

    I'm aware you're talking about DPS with shields and I'm saying expecting that to be remotely competitive DPS is a fallacy. The point of a shield isn't to hit harder.
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  17. #57
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I understand people are concerned about S&B getting left in the dust, I'd like to point out that S&B is *meant* to be the worst DPS style by far, you trade a big dps loss for a large defensive benefit.
    If you play much higher reaper, especially r10 then you can already see good tanks really carving out their place in the meta as a super useful component of the party composition, often times coming in on the exp report with 0 kills and maximum saving sorcerers from Doom reapers.

    TLDR: S&B is fine doing low dps, if you wanted to hit things you would have picked a dps flavor

    We are talking about melee focused vanguards. The Vanguard enhancement line (https://ddowiki.com/page/Vanguard_enhancements) has almost nothing in terms of defensive benefit, and left only with the inherent shield bonuses which mean little in R1 let alone R10.
    The Nak Abides - Argo - Ascent
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  18. #58
    Community Member Assassination's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    There are Defensive benefits to Shields that aren't just passives on the shield, They're mostly focused around actively blocking.

    I'm aware you're talking about DPS with shields and I'm saying expecting that to be remotely competitive DPS is a fallacy. The point of a shield isn't to hit harder.
    That's sort of the point of the whole vanguard tree. To hit stuff hard with your shield. Defensively, in heavy armor and large shield, my prr was less than or about the same as
    some light armor builds that I have used. This fighter build is Kensei/Vanguard with a bastard sword, it should do some decent dps since you are sinking at least 31 pts into a shield/dps
    tree. Unfortuneately bastard swords, are the bastards of the sword family, and shield attacks sort of suck...oh yeah, you have to take a feat to use the sword too... good lord
    Last edited by Assassination; 01-28-2020 at 06:43 PM.

  19. #59
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    At least, turn bswd and daxe to martial weapons.
    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    ...Raiding is pointless because gear will eventually be replaced by better gear. Past lives are forever and thus are the only character improvement that is worth the trouble of acquiring...

  20. #60
    Community Member Ahwaric's Avatar
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    So, any chance for any comment form othe devs on the apparent nerf of 1.5-hand weapons (Bastard Sword & Dwarven Waraxe)?
    Plenty of comments here agree that it is a big problem, yet there is no response yet.
    Please remeber that 1.5 wapons require:
    - proficiency feat
    - 3 THF feats
    Some people said S&B is for defense only. Well, if it is so, then you would not take the above 4 feats, just shield mastery and improved shield mastery. To get all, you need 6 feats (5 if dwarf or choosing helm deity). The investment is for better dps while keeping the defense. It is a trade-off. And as such, should be rewarded - not as much as true 2-handed wepons, but much more than just striketrough chance (melee power is not so big and does not stack with the one from shield mastery).
    Even now on live Longsword & Battle Axe with Knight's Training (1 feat) are better than Bastard Sword & Dwarven waraxe with all 4 feats. So, with 3 feats you get all the defense (shield mastery) and better dps than with 6 feats on bastard sword or Dwarven waraxe. Do not get me wrong though - Knight's Training is fine, the current changes are the problem.
    The 1.5 weapons are different, even if not best. I liked the flavour, so I continued to use Dwarven Waraxe. But the nerf is too big - I think I will switch to battle axe. As probably will do most of other 1.5-hand users. I doubt that is what was intended with the changes.
    Last edited by Ahwaric; 01-28-2020 at 07:38 PM.
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