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  1. #101
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    Default Shadow Training II still not stacking

    Confirmed on Preview 2:

    The Shadow Training II bonuses for to hit on sneak attack, SA die, Hide and Move Silently are still not stacking with other standard bonus types. From the new + tab...

    To hit on sneak attack - this appears to be typed as Enhancement bonus, it does not stack with Deception enhancement bonuses on gear.
    Sneak attack die - it does not appear to add any die. Either it is not stacking with some other common SA die source or it is just not working.
    Hide / Move Silently: these are typed as Enhancement bonus as well, since they do not appear to stack with Ghostly.

    This has been broken forever, it seems like a good time to fix it now.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
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  2. #102
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    Tried to sneak up to the slimes in Final Vintage. I never saw a purple eye over them until after they had detected me, No eye, then a red eye, and then a purple eye as they approached me. They detected me from a long way off.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
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  3. #103
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Well the developers are very adamant on sticking to the Divine Might nerfs, along with several other items the community strongly urged them about. Hopefully they choose to revisit some of these items in the next couple of months.
    Maybe if they do their metrics after Hard Core II they can see if there were any paladins or tempest rangers past about L9 that ran content over hard. I'll actually be surprised to see any paladins or tempests at all (not counting splashes). HCII will likely still be filled with Inquis (although they got hit bad with the nerf bat, they are still good according to popular opinion), Warlocks, and Sorcs predominately. I'd actually be curious to see the stats breakdown for character classes/builds (although with INquis being a tree, not a class, it might be hard) for all characters that hit the various benchmarks (1750 favor, L20, Reaper, etc.).
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeCash View Post
    I just wanted to repeat that the Divine Might change will really be a nerf to Paladins, not just in Damage as a number have spelt out above, but in whole number of other ways. I can't break the drow collars in the Eveningstar quests without Divine might running. I often only get into Leg Tempest Spine Raid group because I can pull the leaver. Currently it only doesn't stack with Insightfull strength, now there will be three insightfull abilities it will not stack with, again reducing damage,etc and stuffing up gear sets that I have spent many many hours getting and setting up.

    At the very least please make the bonus's Sacred so that our gear in not invalidated and I only have to find an insightfull strength item to get back to close to what I had.
    Out of curiosity, what items grant insight bonuses to attack and/or damage? I saw insightful SA items on the wiki, but that's about it. The removal of the insightful strength is pretty big though.

  5. #105
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what items grant insight bonuses to attack and/or damage? I saw insightful SA items on the wiki, but that's about it. The removal of the insightful strength is pretty big though.
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...Accuracy_items

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...l_Deadly_items

    Legendary hammerfist (+8 insightful deadly) in particular is used by many (probably a majority) of endgame melee builds. So 42 charisma to break even with damage and a 78 Charisma to break even with to-hit. If charisma is an off-stat like it is for most paladins you'll probably have a CHA somewhere between those two numbers (but likely on the lower side), so you'll get a small dmg bonus and no attack bonus compared to equiping the effects. Now, sure, you don't have to equip them allowing some gear flexibility in theory but that's a tiny consolation price compared to a stacking bonus and they're in no way difficult effects to slot.

    Insightful STR on the other hand caps out at +9 (https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...Strength_items) and is currently much harder to slot. +9 STR translates to +4.5 dmg/hit with twf or about +6.75 with live twf/swf.

    The gearing situation really makes this nerf even more significant than many people realize. It might not even be worth the AP if your trance bonus is based on an off stat (such as the standard paladin build with STR as the main stat and CHA as support). Trances will still be good for builds where the trance stat is the same their dmg/to-hit stat (eg. harper INT to-hit/dmg + KtA), which is oddly also the builds that sacrifice the least to increase the trance bonus.

    I'd like to see paladin and warpriest (but not warsoul to avoid CHA for hit/dmg/trance) DM changed to a stacking bonus bonus and moved up to a higher teir in their trees. This will make DM of similar value to STR/CHA melee divine builds that KtA/KI are for int/wis builds. You won't have the supercharged trance based on your primary stat, but it will stack with most everything.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 01-30-2020 at 08:26 AM.
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  6. #106
    Community Member Rauven's Avatar
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    Cocomajobo was talking about the THF changes but they're right, now is the time to tell you if something is not satisfactory. While there may be some intention to make further changes, and they just didn't make it into this build, nothing has been communicated and nothing in this build addresses the issue I'm raising.

    The change to Scion of the Ethereal moves the feat, as Lynnabel put it, from "way too strong and removes all choice" into the "unplayable and bad" zone. As pointed out in discussions following the first Lama iteration, the cutoff point for Ethereal to be a good choice is a hide score of 130 or more. I can understand your point that the feat scales poorly due to the, hypothetically, unlimited heights of hide. But changing it to 1.5 * base hide score moves the feat squarely into the "bad" zone and makes Arborea into the defacto "removes all choice" feat. I made a proposal here, but recognize that that may not be an ideal way to go about this, so following is my second proposal.

    Change Ethereal to 1.75 * base hide score. At 1.75 * base one who invests fulling into hide will have a +40 to sneak attack (1.75 * 23 = 40.25). This is much closer to the cutoff point between current Ethereal (130/3 = 43.33 sneak attack bonus) and Arborea.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...Accuracy_items

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...l_Deadly_items

    Legendary hammerfist (+8 insightful deadly) in particular is used by many (probably a majority) of endgame melee builds. So 42 charisma to break even with damage and a 78 Charisma to break even with to-hit. If charisma is an off-stat like it is for most paladins you'll probably have a CHA somewhere between those two numbers (but likely on the lower side), so you'll get a small dmg bonus and no attack bonus compared to equiping the effects. Now, sure, you don't have to equip them allowing some gear flexibility in theory but that's a tiny consolation price compared to a stacking bonus and they're in no way difficult effects to slot.

    Insightful STR on the other hand caps out at +9 (https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...Strength_items) and is currently much harder to slot. +9 STR translates to +4.5 dmg/hit with twf or about +6.75 with live twf/swf.

    The gearing situation really makes this nerf even more significant than many people realize. It might not even be worth the AP if your trance bonus is based on an off stat (such as the standard paladin build with STR as the main stat and CHA as support). Trances will still be good for builds where the trance stat is the same their dmg/to-hit stat (eg. harper INT to-hit/dmg + KtA), which is oddly also the builds that sacrifice the least to increase the trance bonus.
    Yeah, I could already see the implications on the insightful STR. I found the insightful deadly section right before I checked back here (thanks for the response btw).

  8. #108
    Community Member Assassination's Avatar
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    Default Spring Attack

    This is a cool new feat. Will it still be necessary to take the dodge and mobility prior to this one?

    This is a very expensive feat tax to get to a useful ability. I thought part of the purpose of this balance pass was to make melee's more viable in live and in hardcore.
    Most of the changes currently, seem to strengthen the meta for ranged casters and ranged dps.

    Melee need a cheap gap closer, increased layer defense, and more dps to compete. I do not play hardcore, but if I did I sure as hell would not be using a melee.

    Currently on live, the meta is fire sorc, inquizie, and ranged warlock's. Melee's main purpose in a quest is to break the boxes that those guys missed.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post
    This is a cool new feat. Will it still be necessary to take the dodge and mobility prior to this one?

    This is a very expensive feat tax to get to a useful ability. I thought part of the purpose of this balance pass was to make melee's more viable in live and in hardcore.
    Most of the changes currently, seem to strengthen the meta for ranged casters and ranged dps.

    Melee need a cheap gap closer, increased layer defense, and more dps to compete. I do not play hardcore, but if I did I sure as hell would not be using a melee.

    Currently on live, the meta is fire sorc, inquizie, and ranged warlock's. Melee's main purpose in a quest is to break the boxes that those guys missed.
    Useful only for monks, that already have high movement speed, Abundant Step and a Whirlwind that works.
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  10. #110
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    TBH guy's they have already made up their minds on what to do. All these suggestions were given in preview 1 and were either ignored or dismissed out of hand. On live Q&A same feedback was given and again dismissed out of hand, almost with hostility. When several people said that StrikeThrough of two total targets was too small, devs answered with "why" and ignored it after.

    So don't expect much, outside of bug fixes, what's on Lam is what's going to live, nerfs to THF and KoTC included.

  11. #111
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    So these changes are mostly about starting to address complaints players have had with monsters that auto penetrate stealth. Reapers being a major case in point since they appear randomly, but also a jumble of random monsters who beat stealth for various reasons. (tremor sense, sense life, mind reading, whatever).
    ...
    Thanks Torc.

    Can you confirm that these changes are only affecting monsters and that players ability to see hidden mobs remains unchanged? Also it seems that the range for detection on players and monsters both is a hard radius outside of which there is no chance to spot. Is there a reason why this is not a formula where the spot decreases over distance (or am I misreading it)? For stealth to work for players they need to be able to spot the hidden mobs before they can spot our characters (if our character's stats are better).

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...Accuracy_items

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:In...l_Deadly_items

    Legendary hammerfist (+8 insightful deadly) in particular is used by many (probably a majority) of endgame melee builds.
    Not to mention two of the shiny new minor artifacts from Sharn, Key of RD & Sigil of Tri, which have both insightful Accuracy & insightful Deadly.

    EDIT: and the Umber Brim and the synergy that it provides with Hammerfist and a quality Deadly / Accuracy artifact.
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 01-30-2020 at 12:51 PM.
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  13. #113
    Community Member DRoark's Avatar
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    Default This Won't Fix Anything

    They're adamant about the unneeded nerf to IPS (killing Arti and Mechanics), the Divine Might change (killing STR divines), and the Australia-dumpster-fire that is now THF (alot less targets)
    This isn't so much about balancing ranged, which could have been done with ONLY the INQ-tweak and adding some much-needed Bow damage, than a fundamental overhaul and collateral
    stealth nerf of half the classes in the game.

    Only casters (the only actual AOE that exists) are unphased by this fertillizer-storm. Most of this "update" is a total trainwreck that should be scrapped.
    When most of the people playing this to test it, are indicating the same thing (and not "tester X with a mystery build"), they really should pay attention.

    Talking to players on test, and playing several of the builds myself, just shows that some classes just aren't worth playing if this goes live. Stick to casters.
    Last edited by DRoark; 01-30-2020 at 12:43 PM.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    All instances of Divine Might (Cleric, Fvs, and Paladin) are now: "Battle Trance: You gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds."
    Will this 1/2 of CHA modifier tactics bonus stack with the 1/3rd of CHA modifier to tactics bonus in Cormyrean Knight Training from the PDK tree?

    I'm assuming yes but clarification would be nice.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    So these changes are mostly about starting to address complaints players have had with monsters that auto penetrate stealth. Reapers being a major case in point since they appear randomly, but also a jumble of random monsters who beat stealth for various reasons. (tremor sense, sense life, mind reading, whatever).

    Making the player being able to perceived that a monster could see through his stealth wasn't terribly helpful if the monster was already aggro'ing the moment they saw it, so we added a little bit of grace on the ranging.

    The hope is to encourage some amount of stealth scouting in group play in reaper, without getting the rogue killed. We don't expect it to change general stealth behavior for players who are sneaking through dungeons to complete them.

    The stealth system is very complicated with both technical and design issues so these are quite deliberately... baby steps.

    -T
    Thanks for the response Torc

  16. #116
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    - A treatment for reaper auto detection would be to make them roll to beat our hide and move silently skills. There is so much scripting in DDO to avoid using the actual game rules.

    - The chain aggro reaction however still kills of most of the enjoyment of builds investing into stealth, honestly at this point it is a major trap for new players who expect a functional system.

    - Sneak speed is still a loss, which largely helped avoiding the random kills from reapers so far.

    Feels like one step forward two steps back.
    Last edited by janave; 01-31-2020 at 05:01 AM.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    - A treatment for reaper auto detection would be to make them roll to beat our hide and move silently skills. There is so much scripting in DDO to avoid using the actual game rules.

    - The chain aggro reaction however still kills of most of the enjoyment of builds investing into stealth, honestly at this point it is a major trap for new players who expect a functional system.

    - Sneak speed is still a loss, which largely helped avoiding the random kills from reapers so far.

    Feels like one step forward two steps back.
    Hmm. Perhaps they could add a flag to enemies with auto-sight (tremor-sense, life-sense, blind-sense, etc.) so that they can share aggro but enemies that don't have the flag do not aggro (but instead become curious and start looking around or start slowly heading over to your initial position). To elaborate, the idea is to have those that do not have the flag to automatically share aggro with any nearby monster (both with or without flag) when they have aggro, but those with the flag would only share aggro with other monsters with the flag. This would make it less of a fait accompli that you'd have massive aggro from one monster that happened to have tremor sight.
    Last edited by Tuxedoman96; 01-31-2020 at 07:12 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    This would be too good imo, would make these races required for a stealther.

    What they should do is to increase the movespeed bonus of the now non-stacking class-enhancements such that they are closer to what you could get with the standard two-stack before. Ninja's shouldn't have to move slow, and frankly it's boring. Stealth has marginal benefit anyway, forcing people to go slow isn't going to make it more popular or win any goodwill with the community. Finally, my memory fails me, but if the stacking was actually stated as WAI before as I think they were, people are right to be upset about it.
    Outside of avoiding a fight Ninja doesn't have much reason to use Sneak other than passive Ki regen. Assassin's are required to be in Sneak stance for stack of Measure the Foe and to assassinate targets. Ninja's also get Abundent Step on a 3 second cooldown to make up for the slower Sneak speed as well as an extra 10% base movement speed over Rogue. That leave Deepwood Stalker as the slowest with also having to spend 6 point on it. The other stealth class is Druid that gets Wolf and Winter Wolf that get's 10% up to 30% base movement speed boost.

    Maybe a better option would be to add 2/4/6% movement sneak speed penalty reduction to Shadowdancer Tier One Stealthy ability or elsewhere.

  19. #119
    Community Member Grimreich's Avatar
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    Aasimar HP% bonus doesn't stack with Pally core LVL 18 bonus, while all other races HP% bonuses do. Seems a poor choice. I feel like Aasimar should synergize with paladins. Not just make other classes into paladins.

    Am I wrong in thinking that this is going to reduce the reason for tanks to use a shield due to 3X attribute modifier bonuses to two-handed fighting being the bigger payoff given none of the tanking buffs are shield-exclusive?

  20. #120
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    Default Nice try, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    Hmm. Perhaps they could add a flag to enemies with auto-sight (tremor-sense, life-sense, blind-sense, etc.) so that they can share aggro but enemies that don't have the flag do not aggro (but instead become curious and start looking around or start slowly heading over to your initial position). To elaborate, the idea is to have those that do not have the flag to automatically share aggro with any nearby monster (both with or without flag) when they have aggro, but those with the flag would only share aggro with other monsters with the flag. This would make it less of a fait accompli that you'd have massive aggro from one monster that happened to have tremor sight.
    In order for your fix to work, they would have to fix the broken stealth mechanic. Mobs will currently always find you once they are searching for you even if you DD back to the entrance and stealth, the mobs will come for you. Currently stealth is even better than the "Hate Magnet" buff in the challenges at pulling mobs. You will help your team members a lot by remembering this as no mob will attack them as long as they are searching for you. See:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ixed?p=6215815

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