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Thread: Balance is Bad

  1. #1
    Community Member Ghwyn's Avatar
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    Default Balance is Bad

    I think the goal of balancing all classes is not a good idea. I'd expect a fighter to be the best melee, not on par with a cleric as an example. Each class has things to help in different ways, and more than just dps.

    Same goes for weapons. Not all weapons are equal, especially in the hands of different classes.

    I'd like to see better defined roles for parties and raids, rather than make every class nearly equal.

    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
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    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    Balance is bad
    I agree! It's really hard to tell if/how much faster you're standing up with it x.x I'm never sure if it's worth the investment...

    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
    Man, back to the good ol' days of "need tank, need healer, need DPS" party roles lol. I thought the point of DDO was options and diversity, but I guess we can just auto-path stuff and pick one of three stereotypes for our characters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

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    Community Member Clemeit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    I'd like to see better defined roles for parties and raids, rather than make every class nearly equal.
    Epic Destinies nearly ruined this, especially prior to the introduction of reaper. I ran plenty of quests back in the day where our primary healer was a Barbarian with Cocoon.

    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
    This is something I'd like to see. Traps used to be terrifying, and getting caught in one was a heart-stopper (and often meant certain death). These days? Meh... for better or for worse most people just run right through them.

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    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    I think the goal of balancing all classes is not a good idea. I'd expect a fighter to be the best melee, not on par with a cleric as an example. Each class has things to help in different ways, and more than just dps.

    Same goes for weapons. Not all weapons are equal, especially in the hands of different classes.

    I'd like to see better defined roles for parties and raids, rather than make every class nearly equal.

    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
    equality is not possible, but balance is, and should be sought. when the divide becomes too great, the developers can only make content that bores some people or prohibits other people, and neither is a sustainable game environment

    this for example is why the Knight's Training feat is a good addition - it did not make every one handed weapon equal, but it did reduce the severe outlier status of the khopesh. (it is also worth noting how KT did nothing to reduce the khopesh but only increases other weapons, of course)

    i do not think that anyone advocates universal balance solely by DPS, that would certainly not be a good path to go down

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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The idea that giving a cleric less total DPS would usher in a holy trinity era is a myth.

    You can just as easily solo a quest with a T1 DPS with T3 recovery as you can on a T3 DPS with T1 recovery.

    The pure DPS character should kill stuff quickly but be harder to self heal on, so most of the self healing is out of battle. The battle cleric should kill stuff more slowly but the self healing comes from clicking one button going straight back up to full HP - since recovery time is kept to a minimum these two should have similar quest solo times - in a "balanced" scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

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    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The pure DPS character should kill stuff quickly but be harder to self heal on, so most of the self healing is out of battle. The battle cleric should kill stuff more slowly but the self healing comes from clicking one button going straight back up to full HP - since recovery time is kept to a minimum these two should have similar quest solo times - in a "balanced" scenario.
    Unless your heal slows you down significantly, the DPS w/weak heals will be faster just by healing while moving between battles. Jumpcasting OP lol, unless I'm missing your point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

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    Community Member krolikru3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    I think the goal of balancing all classes is not a good idea. I'd expect a fighter to be the best melee, not on par with a cleric as an example. Each class has things to help in different ways, and more than just dps.

    Same goes for weapons. Not all weapons are equal, especially in the hands of different classes.

    I'd like to see better defined roles for parties and raids, rather than make every class nearly equal.

    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
    Lmao, you’re thinking of balancing the game around people with lots of lives on their back. I would challenge you to play a first lifer with no gear transferred from your alt and see if this holds up. I guarantee you’ll be waiting for a trapper on elite/r1. It’s almost as if once you play for 10 years, the game gets easier! Surprise!
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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Unless your heal slows you down significantly, the DPS w/weak heals will be faster just by healing while moving between battles. Jumpcasting OP lol, unless I'm missing your point.
    Thats part of the point. People complain that DPS isnt near equalized because healing got near equalized. Now balance = homogenization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

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    What you just said, that Fighters should best at Fighting while Clerics shouldn't because they can do other things is the very essence of balance: significant tradeoffs.

    Equality is bad and entirely unachievable unless everyone does the same thing.
    Equity, however, is very much a good goal to aim for.

    The goal of balance is to achieve build equity. Where every build with the same amount of work done on is just as viable and both look fair compared to one another.
    One might be a pure healer with shields and protections and all the survival tools in the book and outside of it, while the other is a paper-thin piece of melting chocolate that deals atomic bombs' levels of damage on hit.
    They're definitely not equal, but they look fair, because you can see both of them traded something away for the focus they chose.

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    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    I think the goal of balancing all classes is not a good idea. I'd expect a fighter to be the best melee, not on par with a cleric as an example. Each class has things to help in different ways, and more than just dps.

    Same goes for weapons. Not all weapons are equal, especially in the hands of different classes.

    I'd like to see better defined roles for parties and raids, rather than make every class nearly equal.

    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
    I think you misunderstand by what we mean by balance. There are a few classes that are realativly impossible to play at the highest levels and some that are almost easy to play.

    Those of us who play the neglected classes simply cant understand why incredible powers and benefits are given to a few very specific classes or mix of classes. We want it to be more balanced.

    Saying I want a certain class to be better isn't balance. Something will always be best.

    I don't care what that best is, I just want it to be possible to play nearly any class and do well in high end content. Some of these super high end players CAN play nearly any class and do well. But regardless, it is harder to play some than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    I think you misunderstand by what we mean by balance. There are a few classes that are realativly impossible to play at the highest levels and some that are almost easy to play.

    Those of us who play the neglected classes simply cant understand why incredible powers and benefits are given to a few very specific classes or mix of classes. We want it to be more balanced.

    Saying I want a certain class to be better isn't balance. Something will always be best.

    I don't care what that best is, I just want it to be possible to play nearly any class and do well in high end content. Some of these super high end players CAN play nearly any class and do well. But regardless, it is harder to play some than others.
    +1

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    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I agree! It's really hard to tell if/how much faster you're standing up with it x.x I'm never sure if it's worth the investment...



    Man, back to the good ol' days of "need tank, need healer, need DPS" party roles lol. I thought the point of DDO was options and diversity, but I guess we can just auto-path stuff and pick one of three stereotypes for our characters.



    I agree.

    It was still like this when I was here in 2011-2014. Then was back around 2015-16 after long break.

    I was back once again much later in 2018-2019 to this day (?) and things look alot different then the old days. There was roles and each class and tree but also many races had meaning. (As free races Human, Dwarf, Halfling had value at builds) It was alot of fun.

    I remember both character build and roleplay forums were alive those days. There was lots of posts.

    There was Frontline warriors; fighter and barbarian, backline archer and wizard/sorcerers, mid line healers, paladins, bards. Rogues and rangers were hopping around the place for opportunities. There was roleplay even out of this.
    Last edited by Kutalp; 01-27-2020 at 06:44 PM.

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    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Classes are supposed to have unique niche abilities and offsetting weaknesses that are enhanced and fortified by other classes.

    Each and every class should be bringing their unique strength advantage to augment the entire party.

    The strongest party should be comprised of the most diversified classes grouped together.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 01-28-2020 at 06:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    And while I'm on a rant, how about making traps serious enough that the whole party needs to wait on a rogue to find and disable.
    It sounds like someone needs to play season 2 of hardcore.

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    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    IMHO......

    in PnP a properly run campaign will showcase a builds strong points, but also it weaknesses.

    In DDO, we have such stop-gap for the weaknesses. The power creep in this game (for the most part) cancels out or heavily compensates for those inherent shortcomings.

    Balance CAN NOT BE ACHIEVED in this game.

    What needs to happen is to have those weaknesses become relevant. But that won't happen. The player base has shrunk to the point where any dramatic changes like that would drive more people away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    If you die in a trap, it sort of is your fault. Unless it's my fault, then IT IS my fault


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    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Equality =/= Balance

    When most players talk about balance they aren't taking about making all classes equal (hopefully, if they know what they're talking about). If a cleric is on par dps with a fighter that's not balance, the cleric is just better.

    Rock-Paper-Scissors is an example of both equality and balance. Its also extremely simple and not worth repeating more then a few times. Chess on the other hand is also balanced, but the pieces are definitely not equal. Chess players aren't complaining about OP queens or "buff pawns" because all the pieces fill their intended role in the game.

    Obviously chess isn't a perfect analogy for DDO, (nobody would want to play as a pawn) so it's better to look at the 4 main functions of a character instead. Namely: DPS (or killing potential), survivability, damage mitigation (cc), and healing. An 'all characters are equal' version of DDO would have everyone running around with maxed out DPS/surviability/cc/healing (inquisitive currently, monchers in the past, WF wizards before that, etc...). A balanced but not-equal version of DDO could have every character be good at one thing, bad at another, and decent at the remaining two. Similar to how DDO was at level 20-cap: melees were dps but couldn't heal, ranged were survivable but had lower dps, casters were cc, and clerics were healers, etc... Obviously we are never going back to those clearly defined roles (nor should we), but making sure that all characters at least have one of those 4 areas as a weakness would go a long way to improving balance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghwyn View Post
    I think the goal of balancing all classes is not a good idea. I'd expect a fighter to be the best melee
    Since your first example is fundamentally wrong, your idea of "balance" is suspect. A Fighter should be the most versatile of melee, not the "best" (hence all the bonus feats).

    You're conflating balance and equality.

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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    My question that I rarely see consensus on is as follows:

    Philosophically the class/AP line that has the least utility should be T1 DPS. How much more utility should be gained to be bumped down to T2 DPS?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    My question that I rarely see consensus on is as follows:

    Philosophically the class/AP line that has the least utility should be T1 DPS. How much more utility should be gained to be bumped down to T2 DPS?
    Really depends on the gap between tiers, and how useful that utility really is. For example in this very thread warpriest clerics are in a meh to bad place as they trade far too much dps for far too little utility. Being able to cast heels as a melee is greatly diminished due to reaper, many buffs have weakened in importance overtime, and due to stat bloat hybrid casting/melee is just not possible in meaningful content.

  20. #20
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    Yeah I'm really tired of seeing all these Cleric Warpriests out-DPSing pure Fighter Kensei...

    Cleric OP plz nerf

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