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  1. #1
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    Default Some Positive Thoughts: Levels Beyond 30

    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)


    TL/DR- If we're getting another layer of grind, old layers of grind should be more easily/quickly obtained.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  2. #2
    Community Member Clemeit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)


    TL/DR- If we're getting another layer of grind, old layers of grind should be more easily/quickly obtained.
    1. Yes
    2. Yes
    3. Yes
    4. Eh, no - I for one would never again touch heroics if this was possible, and I know a good number of people who feel the same. This would decimate the heroic scene and that doesn't seem healthy
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  3. #3
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    This is a good idea but there's no reason this has to be paired with a bad idea. Shorter grinding for PLs, yes....raised cap, still no.

    Also, I feel like the grind acceleration should be proportional to how many lives you have - really fast for new players, slowing down for mid range vets, basically no bonus for vets near full PLs

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    I don't specifically object to any of those, but I don't see how changing the speed for the eternal TR-ists is relevant to the fact that they're planning to once again destroy the end game we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap
    Now that would be a huge improvement for people who don't love TRing for it's own sake. Do that instead of a level cap increase!
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  5. #5
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)


    TL/DR- If we're getting another layer of grind, old layers of grind should be more easily/quickly obtained.
    I think these are some really good ideas.

    More levels above 30 (more vertical progression) is a bad thing in my opinion. The things you’re suggesting seem pretty good for the game overall.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post

    Now that would be a huge improvement for people who don't love TRing for it's own sake. Do that instead of a level cap increase!
    Conversely, TR is the single most unique thing that sets DDO apart and the single most important reason it has so much replayability. I'd be very, very careful about messing with that mechanic.

    If you could grind TR without actually TRing, that instantly devalues any content under L26. It brings into question that whole "every level is equally relevant" balance that keeps the game fresh for so long and lets them develop content that isnt just monotonically higher-level. It makes it immediately that much more difficult to find groups for sub-cap content. You'd basically be letting the game devolve back into a "rush to cap, the game starts there" mindset like so many other MMOs.

    There would have to be a drawback so onerous to earning TRs at cap that it would seriously make players consider giving up all their gear, all their skills, all their bonuses, and grinding it back from L1 again the "hard way". Maybe even have the corresponding Heart be a Store-only item, like a Wish, though people would complain that's essentially just buying PLs then.

    It would need to be designed as a worst-case alternative offered for people who simply hate the idea of TRing, not merely one for people who might prefer not to TR...
    Last edited by droid327; 01-23-2020 at 09:58 AM.

  7. #7

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    positive thinking is good and you have made some thoughtful suggestions

    Adding more single character progression after racial PLs and more EPLs? The devs must have read some book or guide on how to make money from a video game and the guide said to keep adding character power since addicts will keep dumping money into it as they desperately chase the moving carrot. The guide probably said that you will have an initial reaction of naysayers but ignore them—they will vent a bit, a few will quit, most will drop their heads and shoulders but will eventually fall in line like a good herd.

    The guide is wrong btw. Prove me right DDOers.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    This is a good idea but there's no reason this has to be paired with a bad idea. Shorter grinding for PLs, yes....raised cap, still no.

    Also, I feel like the grind acceleration should be proportional to how many lives you have - really fast for new players, slowing down for mid range vets, basically no bonus for vets near full PLs
    i like these a lot

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)


    TL/DR- If we're getting another layer of grind, old layers of grind should be more easily/quickly obtained.
    1. Yes
    2. Yes.
    3. No.
    4. Yes.

    My 2 cents. I'm totally opposed to a level cap raise, btw. I'd prefer an at cap 30 progression system. Regardless of what they do with the "moving beyond 30" thing, I'm down for options that reduce older grinds. This game is way too grindy as it is and the desire for unlimited single character progression is damaging to the game.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)


    TL/DR- If we're getting another layer of grind, old layers of grind should be more easily/quickly obtained.
    1. yes
    2. Yes
    3. No
    4. No

    These would be my votes on the above suggestions.
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  11. #11
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)
    1: Nope - XP in the Heroic Levels is extremely easy to achieve. Lowering the XP from 3.8 to 2.8 will create an even wider gap between the haves and the have nots as the haves will level faster and earning more bonuses to their characters faster allowing them to level even faster. Think of it as a snowball rolling down a mountain.
    2: Nope - See above
    3: Nope - See above
    4: Maybe - The ability to bank XP may help alleviate issues, but the problem is becomes we are too few players spread to thin on the servers when it comes to leveling. With only ~40 players in each of the level categories on Khyber if you keep too many at cap that lowers the number at other places making it harder to find groups and level characters.

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  12. #12
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    snip
    4. Eh, no - I for one would never again touch heroics if this was possible, and I know a good number of people who feel the same. This would decimate the heroic scene and that doesn't seem healthy
    I agree that it would decimate the Heroic scene, but I don't think that's such a bad thing. It would mean more people at cap and I like the idea of more people at a narrow level range. That seems like a very good thing.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    positive thinking is good and you have made some thoughtful suggestions

    Adding more single character progression after racial PLs and more EPLs? The devs must have read some book or guide on how to make money from a video game and the guide said to keep adding character power since addicts will keep dumping money into it as they desperately chase the moving carrot. The guide probably said that you will have an initial reaction of naysayers but ignore them—they will vent a bit, a few will quit, most will drop their heads and shoulders but will eventually fall in line like a good herd.

    The guide is wrong btw. Prove me right DDOers.





    That guide is awfully wrong and killed many wonderfull mmos, depleted the player base and left developers jobless. You are right.

    I had been there at many other long dead mmos. I never wish to see that for DDO.
    Last edited by Kutalp; 01-23-2020 at 01:07 PM.

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  14. #14
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    1: Nope - XP in the Heroic Levels is extremely easy to achieve. Lowering the XP from 3.8 to 2.8 will create an even wider gap between the haves and the have nots as the haves will level faster and earning more bonuses to their characters faster allowing them to level even faster. Think of it as a snowball rolling down a mountain.
    2: Nope - See above
    3: Nope - See above
    4: Maybe - The ability to bank XP may help alleviate issues, but the problem is becomes we are too few players spread to thin on the servers when it comes to leveling. With only ~40 players in each of the level categories on Khyber if you keep too many at cap that lowers the number at other places making it harder to find groups and level characters.
    this seems backwards to me because there are a finite number of (useful) past lives, and the "haves" already have quite a few

    we agree this change does not help a new player keep pace with a power gamer when both start a character right now, but i think another important goal is helping a new player catch up to a power gamer who is already completionist+

  15. #15
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    Thumbs up Yes Yes Yes and Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Now that it's confirmed the level cap is raising and that we aren't "pushing beyond level 30" via a lateral progression system... a few of us were chatting about this in Discord tonight and thought of a few ways the dev team could surprise us by adding levels beyond 30 to the game AND the change actually be GOOD for DDO (for everyone... not just the 3 people who like whatever the devs do):

    1. Standardize heroic life XP to 2nd life XP when the new levels launch. First life is the easiest... 2nd life on is 2.85 million.
    2. Racial PLs and Heroic PLs have a new option with a slightly more expensive heart which allows you to gain a Racial and Heroic life at the same time.
    3. Shared past lives
    4. Implement a new system which allows players to gain Heroic/Racial/Iconic PLs yet remain at the new level cap (or within the new level range: IE- 30-35/30-40/30-whatever)


    TL/DR- If we're getting another layer of grind, old layers of grind should be more easily/quickly obtained.
    1. Yes.
    2. Yes.
    3. Yes.
    4. Yes.

    +1 to you Sir!
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  16. #16
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    this seems backwards to me because there are a finite number of (useful) past lives, and the "haves" already have quite a few

    we agree this change does not help a new player keep pace with a power gamer when both start a character right now, but i think another important goal is helping a new player catch up to a power gamer who is already completionist+
    The problem is power gamers (a large segment of them) are not completionists. I have complete 14 past lives on my main character (hopefully 15 by tomorrow) and 6 Epic Past Lives with ~30 Reaper Points. This characters is no where near complete and I have mapped out another 15 past lives and another half-a-dozen epic past lives.

    My guildie who plays about half-as-much as I do is on his fifth past life with 2 Epic Past Lives. Because I play more and my character already has additional bonuses (Racial Points Epic past Lives) I can complete content faster than they can. By the time he completes three past lives under the shortened system I will have completed more than 10. The power gap between the two characters has gotten much bigger.

    That's the problem.

    What players want is a way to close that power gap, not widen it. Under the current system (hamster wheel) of XP and Reincarnations I am not sure there is a way to do that.

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  17. #17
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salmag View Post
    1. yes
    2. Yes
    3. No
    4. No

    These would be my votes on the above suggestions.
    What salmag said.

  18. #18
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    The problem is power gamers (a large segment of them) are not completionists. I have complete 14 past lives on my main character (hopefully 15 by tomorrow) and 6 Epic Past Lives with ~30 Reaper Points. This characters is no where near complete and I have mapped out another 15 past lives and another half-a-dozen epic past lives.

    My guildie who plays about half-as-much as I do is on his fifth past life with 2 Epic Past Lives. Because I play more and my character already has additional bonuses (Racial Points Epic past Lives) I can complete content faster than they can. By the time he completes three past lives under the shortened system I will have completed more than 10. The power gap between the two characters has gotten much bigger.

    That's the problem.

    What players want is a way to close that power gap, not widen it. Under the current system (hamster wheel) of XP and Reincarnations I am not sure there is a way to do that.
    my point though is that the 15th past life isn't as significant, and eventually more past lives are literally insignificant because a character already has every bonus they can get.

    rather than further speculate, why don't you show us what the first 15/6 past lives got you and what the next 15/6 will, and we can compare and contrast directly?

  19. #19
    Community Member DRoark's Avatar
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    Raising the cap is a horrible idea. More spread on existing players, less grouping options, more power creep.

    They need lateral progression now, like an XP-specific tree of passive bonuses (that also resets to 0 if you TR), and just concentrate on adding content,
    which will also add races, gear, etc. People are more likely to spend money, group, TR, etc with new content. Level cap just creates issues we don't need.

    Don't become Warcraft, we don't need more levels, we need more races, player options, and lands to explore.

    I forsee:
    Cap gets raised (maybe 32-34), players can't find groups due to a higher mission spread.
    They add Legendary TRs! Because, you know, we need a FIFTH Hamster Wheel of Doom.
    The Devs burn the half-a-bridge they have left, because they told us this was a "good thing".
    Mass Exodous to whatever MMO comes out in 2020, as long as SSG doesn't own stock in it.

    Only part of this is a joke.
    Last edited by DRoark; 01-23-2020 at 03:28 PM.

  20. #20
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    my point though is that the 15th past life isn't as significant, and eventually more past lives are literally insignificant because a character already has every bonus they can get.

    rather than further speculate, why don't you show us what the first 15/6 past lives got you and what the next 15/6 will, and we can compare and contrast directly?

    There is no argument from me that each step is slightly less of an improvement of a character, the biggest improvement for any character is going from 28/32 to a 34 point build, and each step is slightly less of an improvement, however when I take 30 steps and you take 12, the sheer volume of my steps generates more improvement. Plus with each step of improvement I am able to complete the next step slightly faster.
    Last edited by GoldyGopher; 01-23-2020 at 04:33 PM.

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