Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: Rethinking "OP"

  1. #1
    2016 DDO Players Council
    Hierophant of Vol
    Truthspeaker of Khyber
    karatemack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,530

    Default Rethinking "OP"

    Should OP things be allowed in DDO?

    The knee-jerk reaction to this question for most players will likely be, "No! Of course not!". But I believe there are reasons we should take another look behind what drives players to engage with those OP things. Perhaps there is a justification not only to allow for OP things to exist, but to actually justify the dev team intentionally including OP things in the game!

    Cargo Hold Elemental Resist Shrines

    While controversial for many reasons, the argument most relevant to a discussion on "OP" things is that these resist shrines make the early levels each life meaningless. But, who are those players who would struggle in the early levels without those buffs? Most likely new players, returning players, players who roll up alts or players who want to run high level reaper during TRs. Who cares if players feel OP in low-level content? You aren't likely to shatter the game or break the latest raids because you were able to solo a level 3 quest on R2. The fact this is not a game balance decision is made evident by the fact you can still purchase the same resistances in the store and these persist through death.

    Warlock/Inquisitive/OP-Things

    What do we actually gain from OP things? Maybe a better question would be, "Why do players choose to play OP things?". Because, at the end of the day, these things are all a choice. You choose (before they're removed) whether or not you hit the ship buffs. You choose whether or not you build a warlock/inquisitive/meta-thing. You choose what you bring into raids with you.

    I submit to you that the two primary reasons many players opt-in to the OP things are:
    1. It reduces the amount of time they spend grinding.
    2. They prefer to feel OP.


    The number of lives (heroic, racial, iconic, epic) to grind for 1 toon can be daunting. Even if you don't want EVERY life, you likely want a few PLs to finish your DC caster (CC or insta-kill), monk, archer, etc. The racial AP makes certain builds far more effective (see Nightmare's monk build) and epic PLs add immensely to the survival rate of characters in end-game content. OP things in the game make you die less in more challenging content settings, meaning that even players with less skill can more quickly navigate through the grind. I know quite a few people who had ZERO intention of running Warlock at endgame who sped through multiple PLs on one simply to reduce the time they invested into the grind before their character was complete. Don't believe me that people want a shortcut to reduce the grind? Just look at how many people are willing to invest $$$ on XP pots/Ottos simply to get to the play the character they actually want to play.

    OP-things help in another way altogether. They eliminate the need for PLs in many instances. Are you a new player? Returning player? Want to run with all your guild mates and feel like you're actually contributing without grinding for 5-12 months first? Great news!!! You can roll an inquisitive and start having fun today! This is the one-two punch of OP-things. On the one hand they reduce the grind (IE: time it takes to gain lives) while on the other eliminating the need for grind in the first place. However you feel about past lives... most would agree that the bonuses achievable through heroic/racial/iconic/epic PLs and Reaper enhancements is bloated beyond where it should be. OP things help reduce the gap (or render it nearly meaningless) for players who simply don't want to (or don't have) the time or $$$ to by-pass the grind-wall.

    Other Ways to Address the Problem?

    Sure, there are other ways these issues could be addressed, (shared PLs, standardizing heroic XP across all lives (set it to 2nd life XP?), reducing benefits from PLs, removing benefits from Reaper, etc.) however these suggestions are always met with harsh resistance from other players and have largely been ignored by the development team. Because of how much grind there is in the game, and because of how the difficulties of the game have been scaled for things such as Reaper mode and Hardcore League, it no longer makes sense to instantly nerf-hammer every OP thing.

    Embrace the OP on occasion- sometimes it's actually good for the game.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
    Leader- The Casual Obsession ___Khyber___

  2. #2
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Backwards Day in Bikini Bottom
    Posts
    7,806

    Default

    So valid points here. I can’t tell you the last time I used a resist shrine. I keep the current as some in the guild are newer or don’t have the base my alts do.
    Sarlona's FORMER #1 Piker!!
    QuiknDirty~Quikster~Quikkilla Missquik~
    Member of Roving Guns

  3. #3
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Backwards Day in Bikini Bottom
    Posts
    7,806

    Default

    I think it's worth pointing out, the best players are always going to wipe the quest with the rest of our butts. No amount of nerfing will ever change that.
    Sarlona's FORMER #1 Piker!!
    QuiknDirty~Quikster~Quikkilla Missquik~
    Member of Roving Guns

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,617

    Default

    Interesting read however it doesn't really address the main issue.

    There will always be new OP things provided to get people to spend cash on them and maintain their accounts and those OP things will always be nerfed after the fact to make room for *new* OP things to get people to spend cash on them and maintain their accounts.

    This is just the cycle that we live with and if we like DDO we accept it. I like DDO so I accept it.

    Alchemist is about to be released and odds are good it will be ridiculously OP. Inquisitive will be nerfed to make people who want to be easily OP try out Alchemist. All ranged classes other than Alchemist will be nerfed at least slightly just before Alchemist comes out. This is to make sure that the herd properly fixates on Alchemist for awhile.

    Warlocks were released as ridiculously OP and then nerfed right around the time the Monk class pass made Monks ridiculously OP. They were nerfed again in proximity to the Palemaster pass that was sold as creating OP Palemasters but just created really strong ones.

    Monks were nerfed to make room for OP Inquisitives. Palemasters caught a break on that cycle because they never really got to OP in the class pass, just very good.

    Alchemists will be nerfed when SSG decides it's time to release something else that is ridiculously OP and helps the bottom line in some way.

    Again, this is the cycle and if you like DDO you like it.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    4,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    While controversial for many reasons, the argument most relevant to a discussion on "OP" things is that these resist shrines make the early levels each life meaningless. But, who are those players who would struggle in the early levels without those buffs? Most likely new players, returning players, players who roll up alts or players who want to run high level reaper during TRs.
    I would argue that what is bad is they limit engagement with the content. When you are OP, you just run through not paying attention killing things and going to the next easy thing to kill. Balanced PvE engages you, you think about things and react. Arguably more fun.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    OP-things help in another way altogether. They eliminate the need for PLs in many instances. Are you a new player? Returning player? Want to run with all your guild mates and feel like you're actually contributing without grinding for 5-12 months first? Great news!!! You can roll an inquisitive and start having fun today! This is the one-two punch of OP-things. On the one hand they reduce the grind (IE: time it takes to gain lives) while on the other eliminating the need for grind in the first place. However you feel about past lives... most would agree that the bonuses achievable through heroic/racial/iconic/epic PLs and Reaper enhancements is bloated beyond where it should be. OP things help reduce the gap (or render it nearly meaningless) for players who simply don't want to (or don't have) the time or $$$ to by-pass the grind-wall.
    Devil's Advocate:

    Players with uber completionist, the best in class gear, etc., also can (and do) use the latest OP classes and trees. Then they become super-duper OP. Then those players complain the game is too easy. Then the devs create weird, lore-ruining, bolt-on systems to try to solve the problem. They incentivize those bolt-on systems heavily, because, hey, they worked through lunch one Friday to build it. Then that bolt-on difficulty becomes the new normal, and those alts and returning players are right back where they started.

  7. #7
    2016 DDO Players Council
    Hierophant of Vol
    Truthspeaker of Khyber
    karatemack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I would argue that what is bad is they limit engagement with the content. When you are OP, you just run through not paying attention killing things and going to the next easy thing to kill. Balanced PvE engages you, you think about things and react. Arguably more fun.
    You're conflating your personal CHOICE with standard behavior. You're also missing the mark on player motivation.

    I know some folks who have hit every single collectible in the game since before CC (I was one of those), others never do. Some people like getting conquest or ransack bonuses, others could care less. Some folks engage with the content itself less because of OP things... other engage with it MORE. It's nicer to sniff the flowers when it takes less time to finish fights in quests or you aren't in "I hope I survive the next fight" mode.

    Also, how many times through a quest do you find it engaging? Do you truly expect everyone shares your experience? Do players even want engaging content throughout the grind, or do they just want to get it over as quickly as possible? You'll find individuals who are all over the continuum as they answer these questions. Yet, you assume your experience should apply the same to everyone.

    Not being able to contribute in a group is arguably less fun. OP things help certain players engage with the broader gaming community in DDO. It is still an MMO after all.

    Also, having OP things does not remove all challenge from the game for those who want it, since utilizing these OP things is a CHOICE. If you want to argue that all players (or a majority) will always gravitate towards the strongest OP things available in the game, then that serves to undermine your entire premise.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
    Leader- The Casual Obsession ___Khyber___

  8. #8
    2016 DDO Players Council
    Hierophant of Vol
    Truthspeaker of Khyber
    karatemack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Devil's Advocate:

    Players with uber completionist, the best in class gear, etc., also can (and do) use the latest OP classes and trees. Then they become super-duper OP. Then those players complain the game is too easy. Then the devs create weird, lore-ruining, bolt-on systems to try to solve the problem. They incentivize those bolt-on systems heavily, because, hey, they worked through lunch one Friday to build it. Then that bolt-on difficulty becomes the new normal, and those alts and returning players are right back where they started.
    This point would be more valid if this same dynamic no longer occurred after the OP thing(s) were removed from the game.

    Inquisitive will be nerfed soon- people will still argue the game has become too easy.

    The real solution here was an opportunity missed with Reaper mode. Had Reaper mode been introduced with no incremental power creep- we would be in a different place. The Reaper levels could be adjusted at the top end to increase difficulty as needed without fear of upsetting anyone who missed out on grinding through their Reaper Xp early on. If Hardcore League proved anything, it was that those of us who argued for rewards of bragging rights, cosmetics and increased loot drop as the ONLY rewards for Reaper... were right.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
    Leader- The Casual Obsession ___Khyber___

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    You're conflating your personal CHOICE with standard behavior. You're also missing the mark on player motivation.

    I know some folks who have hit every single collectible in the game since before CC (I was one of those), others never do. Some people like getting conquest or ransack bonuses, others could care less. Some folks engage with the content itself less because of OP things... other engage with it MORE. It's nicer to sniff the flowers when it takes less time to finish fights in quests or you aren't in "I hope I survive the next fight" mode.

    Also, how many times through a quest do you find it engaging? Do you truly expect everyone shares your experience? Do players even want engaging content throughout the grind, or do they just want to get it over as quickly as possible? You'll find individuals who are all over the continuum as they answer these questions. Yet, you assume your experience should apply the same to everyone.

    Not being able to contribute in a group is arguably less fun. OP things help certain players engage with the broader gaming community in DDO. It is still an MMO after all.

    Also, having OP things does not remove all challenge from the game for those who want it, since utilizing these OP things is a CHOICE. If you want to argue that all players (or a majority) will always gravitate towards the strongest OP things available in the game, then that serves to undermine your entire premise.
    If the game us not engaging for you why do you grind. You think it will be magically better after years of grinding? I don't get the sentiment that anything that speeds up the levelling process is better.

    Also, your argument is fundamentally unsound. Taking away choice is often a good thing to get people to cooperate. Rules is what keeps society together.

    That said, balance does not guarantee fun either.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-18-2020 at 10:39 AM.

  10. #10
    2016 DDO Players Council
    Hierophant of Vol
    Truthspeaker of Khyber
    karatemack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    If the game us not engaging for you why do you grind. You think it will be magically better after years of grinding? I don't get the sentiment that anything that speeds up the levelling process is better.

    Also, your argument is fundamentally unsound. Taking away choice is often a good thing to get people to cooperate. Rules is what keeps society together.

    That said, balance does not guarantee fun either.
    False premise in bold. The game IS engaging, or I (and I suspect everyone else) wouldn't play.

    Endless TR GRIND is not engaging for everyone, no matter how folks on these forums try to spin it. As has been stated in the past, a certain threshold of grind can help keep players engaged. Having OP things provides more choice and lessens the pain for those who would rather not engage in the TR GRIND. Incidentally, these players also typically engage more in endgame/raiding content.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
    Leader- The Casual Obsession ___Khyber___

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    False premise in bold. The game IS engaging, or I (and I suspect everyone else) wouldn't play.

    Endless TR GRIND is not engaging for everyone, no matter how folks on these forums try to spin it. As has been stated in the past, a certain threshold of grind can help keep players engaged. Having OP things provides more choice and lessens the pain for those who would rather not engage in the TR GRIND. Incidentally, these players also typically engage more in endgame/raiding content.
    OP stuff just destroys the party play experience when half the players don't feel like they are contributing anymore. If you don't want to grind then hust don't do it. You were all for choices, and not grinding hurts no one. The grinders will also run the OP builds anyway, so its just a spiral to the bottom.

    That said, the underlying problem with DDO is that the accumulated benefits of the grind are OP, so many feel compelled to do it to be competitive in party play to begin with. This is what they have failed to balance, esp reaper hp, but all of it together. Asking for OP builds isn't going to fix that however, only balance can. OPness is the problem.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-18-2020 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    This point would be more valid if this same dynamic no longer occurred after the OP thing(s) were removed from the game.

    Inquisitive will be nerfed soon- people will still argue the game has become too easy.

    The real solution here was an opportunity missed with Reaper mode. Had Reaper mode been introduced with no incremental power creep- we would be in a different place. The Reaper levels could be adjusted at the top end to increase difficulty as needed without fear of upsetting anyone who missed out on grinding through their Reaper Xp early on. If Hardcore League proved anything, it was that those of us who argued for rewards of bragging rights, cosmetics and increased loot drop as the ONLY rewards for Reaper... were right.
    If Alchemist is introduced as OP and later nerfed, it will still leave 3x passive PL benefits for returning/new players and alts to contend with. Trying to get up to the median power level will be just that much further away. Individually they seem smallish, but it's death by 1,000 paper cuts. The players at the very top of the curve will have those new permanent, stacking benefits unlocked ~9 days after U45 goes live.

    I agree with you on the Reaper thing. I wasn't against it initially when it was presented as an optional play mode for those who had really over-achieved or simply liked things to be an extreme challenge. But as it turns out, it has effectively turned into a grind sentence for every remaining player whether they like that setting or not. Elite has become relatively easier too because now that Reaper is the new standard difficulty setting, they continue to add power creep more liberally.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    That said, the underlying problem with DDO is that the accumulated benefits of the grind are OP, so many feel compelled to do it to be competitive in party play to begin with. This is what they have failed to balance, esp reaper hp, but all of it together. Asking for OP builds isn't going to fix that however, only balance can. OPness is the problem.

    Yep, I believe this the long and short of it. The game is really between a rock and a hard place there because people have paid for those benefits, directly (boxes) or indirectly (xp pots). You can see the reaction to making a change to a benefit someone has paid for. Even something like adding an invocation timer to a QoL transport item. People get upset. So how do you balance the power of more than 100 PLs without bringing the pitch forks out and mass rage quits? I guess HCL is their answer.

  13. #13
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    6,145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    If Alchemist is introduced as OP and later nerfed, it will still leave 3x passive PL benefits for returning/new players and alts to contend with. Trying to get up to the median power level will be just that much further away. Individually they seem smallish, but it's death by 1,000 paper cuts. The players at the very top of the curve will have those new permanent, stacking benefits unlocked ~9 days after U45 goes live.
    I agree with the sentiment, but I think that this specific example is not relevant because +3 transmutation DC isn’t going to make a difference for anyone.

    If Alchemist is crazy fast to level and people use it for racials and it gets nerfed later, that can be a big deal, but I don’t see 3 alchemist past lives mattering aside from the one life required for Completionist. Which really matters more for casters than for melee/ranged.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  14. #14
    2016 DDO Players Council
    Hierophant of Vol
    Truthspeaker of Khyber
    karatemack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    OP stuff just destroys the party play experience when half the players don't feel like they are contributing anymore. If you don't want to grind then hust don't do it. You were all for choices, and not grinding hurts no one. The grinders will also run the OP builds anyway, so its just a spiral to the bottom.
    OP stuff does the opposite. The thing is, OP characters will still be in-game even once these particular OP things are removed. Having particular OP stuff which is OP for everyone regardless of lives helps the have nots run with the haves and feel like contributors. This is especially useful for alts. Oh, and it also helps the have nots catch up to the haves faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I agree with the sentiment, but I think that this specific example is not relevant because +3 transmutation DC isn’t going to make a difference for anyone.
    Mass Frog FTW!
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
    Leader- The Casual Obsession ___Khyber___

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    155

    Default The Most OP

    What is most OP are those with all the PL benefits. To balance the game they will need to nerf PL feats. Without PL feats, the other items are not OP. Discussing what is and what is not OP without addressing PL feats is just blowing smoke.

  16. #16
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    6,145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post

    Mass Frog FTW!
    I had heard that Mass Frog doesn’t take DC buffs correctly. Anyone know for sure if Alchemist Past Life works on it?
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post

    Also, your argument is fundamentally unsound. Taking away choice is often a good thing to get people to cooperate. Rules is what keeps society together.

    It's statements like this that create resistance movements. Totalitarian much?
    Last edited by Dnarth; 01-18-2020 at 10:47 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Inquis needed to be balanced. Was it fun sure. The heavy handed ranged nerf because of inquis is ridiculous. Especially with the Ronco but wait there is more surprise we are also buffing bows now. I am sure the whole dev team was surprised by that promise too.

    The resist shrines being too op now after what 5 years since the guild ship update. So op at level 1. lol so are past lives. I am sure this truly is just a pet peeve project of one who hates small guilds.

    For a PvE game there is a lot of build envy. Pretty much why I have severely limited my pugging. One I don't want people to know my absurdly low kill numbers and 2 I don't want give players a need to call for further nerfs of said kill count.

  19. #19
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    your OP asks a question

    is over power ok?

    my answer - no
    no
    no
    no
    no
    no
    no
    no
    repeat as often as necessary.

    ANY MMO that favors one of the types of gameplay over others, slowly
    kills off all the other options in favor of the strongest choice.

    It is a fatal flaw.

    Most successful MMOs spend a LOT of resources to keeping the various
    forms of play balanced.

    You lose forms of gameplay, you lose players and money.

    Why do you think the #1 MMO in the world spent a TON of money
    recreating a server from the beginning? BECAUSE they wanted
    those players BACK. Private servers 'classic servers' were taking a small slice
    of their player base and taking legal action was not working.
    So they recreated the server those players wanted.

    That is why wow is #1

    BALANCE
    QUALITY
    PLAY STYLE OPTIONS (normal, RP, PVP, RPPVP, 'classic')

    DDO will never be WOW but they can watch them to see what works and
    what doesn't.

    The game is balanced incredibly close.
    That is why any class can duel any other class...in a fair fight.

    Over Power is evil and unhealthy for a MMO.
    Planescape City of Doors for DDO endgame. Even dying in certain places can create new adventures.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    The Abyss
    Posts
    488

    Default Wrong

    There is never any excuse for OP things, when one thing is horrifically OP it is the same as everything else being underpowered.

    The vast majority of players will play whatever is most OP (or at the very least above a certian percentage, very few people will play the worst class/build just for 'fun'), humans are naturally attracted to optimizing things, when there are only 1 or 2 options that are far above everything else this destroys build diversity.

    Inquisitive nerf was needed and extremely generous, even after all their nerfs they'll be a solid B+ to A- spec if built properly. The devs showed a massive amount of restraint not warlocking them.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload