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  1. #41
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Oh, I get that. I just haven't seen enough positive changes in that regard without my input to give me faith again to try again. I've actually been a happier player by reducing my expectations and my input here beyond being a goofus. I just stop playing the parts of the game I find odious - be it classes or quests or features - and focus on the parts of the game I have fun with. I have found a way to have my own fun despite overall direction changes, nerfs, and other problematic issues as I see them.

    While the request for input isn't quite the honeypot trap I used to see it as - it's still a degree of investment I can't yet bring myself to reattain. I feel bad about that, but I just can't.
    You do the same thing regardless of who you are responding to it would seem.....

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Easy access in context was referring to ease of use, not ease of acquisition. IPS is much easier to use effectively than other forms of AoE in the game, and unlike other forms of AoE it does not correspond to a DPS loss.

    These problems will not go away until there is a balance in base weapon damages and there are normalized benefits from multiple attack, speed, and enchantments across all weapons, both melee and ranged. Then, with a good sample, it may be possible to use the ranged specific feats to "throttle" the reward down for the amount of risk. The same could be said of spells; they need the same balancing, relative to risk. They could easily follow the same damage paradigm as weapons with the use of some creative maths, AoE not being the least. These in turn, can be reverse-engineered toward melee and ranged for their own versions of AoE, including IPS, but also, eg, WW and DoD.

    Balance the weapons properly, and gear for that matter, first. Start the tweaking second. And changing something like IPS mid-stride while weapons like bows are so out of balance makes little sense if there will be a need to change the base weapons yet again.

    In other words, start the engine first before any playing with the throttle begins.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    That seems to be more of a shortcoming with other forms of AOE than an issue with IPS...it was never an issue for years, no one complained about it, and now suddenly its breaking the meta. If Ranger and Arti and Shuri werent breaking the meta before Inqui, then how are they suddenly breaking it now?

    IPS is fun to use in its current iteration. Other approaches should be made equally fun.

    E.g. THF should do secondary damage to all mobs in range, not just 2-3 targets, like I keep saying.
    Signed!

  4. #44

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    Delay until.........I finish my last 6 racial lives as un-nerfed inquisitive. Thank you. End of February is good. I appreciate your support.

  5. #45
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    I became a pessimist for this game. That is not my nature. But I will probably stay this way until you prove me wrong.
    Ha this caught my eye. This is entirely true for me as well. I'm usually very optimistic, but when changes are announced in ddo I'm instantly pessimistic hahah

  6. #46
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Signed.

    Speaking for only myself, I gave up on supplying any specific feedback a long time ago. I gave up on the test or preview servers, too. As well as reporting bugs.

    I was once extremely passionate about this game. The term "fanboy" was pretty much created for the degree I was drinking the DDO Kool-Aid. But, the game has had Devs in the past who would create punitive measures in response to feedback. There is one particularly hideous piece of armor that was created in direct response to players asking for better looking armor. A Dev once worked on their own time because he hated that you used to be able to spin your character while sitting at rest shrines, implemented it, and when players complained about the suddenly missing quirk... they were told to shut up. I also had a Developer tell me on the invite-only test server that he was glad I didn't like something being tested because "It wasn't for you." There are a multitude of other examples, sadly...

    Now, I just take the game as it comes. My initial reaction to changes hasn't dulled over the years - but my impulse to be vocal about it (outside of very rare occasions) has been. And while it is true that the current Dev team has gotten much better... there is still a perception among players that y'all don't measure twice and cut once. Vocal negative feedback has gone unacknowledged and changes unmade. New features are regularly either nakedly overpowered necessitating future nerfing (and prompting complaints of bait-and-switch tactics, since the nerfs seem to come just before the next OP thing we will need to buy) or harsh nerfs to existing features that seem to be blown out of proportion to the general population in response to very niche and narrow examples of over-performance.

    My enthusiasm for the game has waxed and waned over the intervening years. U45 is looking like it's going to be waning cycle, because I am also really unhappy with a lot of what I've seen on the docket. I'm poking my head out of my shell of self-imposed ennui just this once to say so, since you asked and I very much respect what you have done as a developer, Lynn. But, I don't expect any actual change to occur as a result. For a long time, I used the image of Charlie Brown getting dumped on his butt trying to kick the football as the summation of how I felt towards DDO Development. I got a fair share of my Legendary Reputation status from those posts because a lot of folks agreed with it. . I'm tired of ending up on my butt... and, rightly or wrongly, I still feel like that will be the only result from trying to alter any future development.



    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Oh, I get that. I just haven't seen enough positive changes in that regard without my input to give me faith again to try again. I've actually been a happier player by reducing my expectations and my input here beyond being a goofus. I just stop playing the parts of the game I find odious - be it classes or quests or features - and focus on the parts of the game I have fun with. I have found a way to have my own fun despite overall direction changes, nerfs, and other problematic issues as I see them.

    While the request for input isn't quite the honeypot trap I used to see it as - it's still a degree of investment I can't yet bring myself to reattain. I feel bad about that, but I just can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Ditto.

    +1

    Add myself and my RL friends to that sentiment.

    Ive read the threads by sev & coco about U45 changes, and sadly I don't see anything that changes my attitude.

    The 1 upside I do see is Catacombs & Delara's getting an epic mode. But again those in itself aren't enough to lure me back.


    So how can someone who isn't playing give constructive feedback? I read threads and posts, discord chat, youtube videos and the player weekly streams.

    SSG IF you spent the resources on changing the biggest content debacle ever made.... REAPER enhancement trees and a better new player UI then I'd be on-board with the game.

    None of the changes works for the player not involved with the hamster wheel tr or reaper though. The way it stands, if I log onto any server and run w/ the guilds I belong to, I'm nothing more than a soul stone waiting to happen, (especially raids).

    Until I see healthy changes that matter to me, I speak with my wallet.


    SSG you've divided the player base, and in the process lost a lot of long term players. (Myself included)

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Why? Give us your feedback. Just telling us "I don't like it" doesn't help us improve.
    I'm perfectly fine with the IPS change shaking up the META.
    Change and adaptation is one of the factors that keeps this game fresh.

    That said however, Bow use is still low on the DPS totem pole. Just exempt long and short bows from the IPS changes
    and call it good along with what other buffs you may have planned for Long and short bow weapons.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Why? Give us your feedback. Just telling us "I don't like it" doesn't help us improve.
    I am ok with using "nerfs" to balance the game - but I suggest you try to do so in a way that does not make things boring or unfun.

    - Adding the "activation time" to NHB makes it unfun to use. I tried playing a ranged arti prior to inquisitive and didn't like it exactly because EF has an activation time. Please reconsider this particular change and make both NHB, EF and indeed all action boosts instant activation. This makes the game more fun.

    - The nerf to IPS still puzzles me but I do see the point that giving full damage on all targets might be too much. However, I suggest you instead make IPS hit the hard target (or first target if no hard target) for full and all additional target for 80%. Quite often you only actually hit one target so a nerf to 80% on all targets makes IPS unfun because you feel you often get a penalty for using the feat. Try playing through a couple of different full quests to see just how often someone with IPS actually only hits one target. Such a penalty makes the for an unfun experience.
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  9. #49
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    Instead of a flat reduction in damage for using IPS, why not give enemies after the first one hit a little bit of Deflection (like the crab in White Plume, but not that much!). Maybe like 20% Deflection for all enemies after exiting the first target? That way you can give a trade-off in the form of some DPS reduction while at the same time making IPS seem more realistic by roughly simulating a shot's course becoming slightly diverted upon exiting a body. Aaaannnnd you can introduce Deflection Bypass on a future raid (non-weapon) item!

    How is the 20% nerf realized anyway? I wasn't able to make it onto Lamannia this time around. Does it just drop Ranged Power by 20 upon IPS activation?
    Last edited by Sorcerio; 01-19-2020 at 04:45 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zer0AcmE View Post
    Fine, you want direct feedback, here it is from someone that spent time on Lama and listened to the Devs take and answer questions:

    1. Leave IPS alone, it's been there since the dawn of time, quit telling us how the game should be played and simply let us PLAY it!!!

    2. Yes Inquis needs nerfing (this coming from someone currently playing one), but DON'T do it at the expense of other range builds, simply lessen the law damage dice and the rate of fire coming from the double crossbows.

    3. DO NOT over power Alchemist simply for the point of selling it, I've already seen it, you scale poison damage properly it will be even worse!!!

    4. Give Paladin a proper overhaul, KotC bonuses only work against two monster types, outside of that they're still average at best.

    5. Give the pure Fighter and Paladin builds proper bonuses to allow them to tank on even ground with multi class builds (Fighter was good, Paladin was well behind, I built both out on Lama, Paladin was 500 HP and 50 AC behind Fighter, as well much lower PRR and MRR but that is to be expected due to the Fighter feats)

    6. Even out the HP bonus properly, all of those is the racial trees (Dwarf, Bladeforge, Aasimar) should be labeled racial, the other like Falconry, etc...can be labeled Quality.

    7. You make Aasimar pay 16 RACIAL points for it's HP bonus, leave it 10% and make it a RACIAL bonus, if you invest that many points you should be rewarded accordingly and don't force people away from making Aasimar Paladins (currently both bonuses are Sacred) simply cause you don't want to see them played (the Devs speaking to the crowd on Lama the other night confirmed this was the intention), again don't tell us how to play the game, just let us PLAY IT!!!

    Hope you find this informative....
    This to a T. I second this. I enjoy melee classes best and I cant play them in todays ddo very ineffective. Paladin is my favorite class. all the other classes get unique items that help them with all kinds of things in game. Pallies ,specifically S&B builds get nothing. by the time I get to an enemy its dead from the guy behind me going pew pew pew. then you get a reaper in your face and cant handle damage output cause your defences aren't ramped up enough because there are not enough items in game to get that from. you made a special armor that we could get from anniversary quest and then nerfed the **** out of it to the point where even at level it is the worst item of its class. I thought anniversary items would be better than every day items . in most cases they tend to be but melee classes depend on their armor and you nerfed something for a reason that still seems bogus to me.

  11. #51
    Community Member Burradin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Such as? If you don't tell us what you don't like, we don't have a way of knowing what you want.



    I can tell you that the best way to ensure your feedback isn't respected is to provide no feedback whatsoever. I'd like to give you what you want, but without specifics, telling me that "you're unhappy" doesn't give me anything to work with.
    Easy to tell, but it will not happen. I said it in another post.

    Test it until it is right and then release it. Don't nerf it later and people will not be angry. I am a big believer in no nerfs. But that requires more effort from SSG to get it right the first time. 13 years experience says that is not going to happen.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Paladin_of_Power's Avatar
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    . I would like to see Paladin special abilities work against more than two types of bad guys, and still be thematically correct and flavorful. I looked up Paladin in 5e and it seems like it's abilities should work against specifically Undead and Fiends Fiends include demons, devils, hell hounds, rakshasas, and yugoloths.

    .. Also found this while researching. Great Weapon FightingWhen you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an Attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. The weapon must have the Two-Handed property for you to gain this benefit.

    ... I would like to see Knight of the chalice corner stone ability Holy Retribution have some more cowbell if you can increase the hit point threshold To be destroyed that would be awesome because it quickly becomes less useful. Keep it at 1000hp destroyed / 100hp if saved for 12 levels of Paladin, and bump it up by 200hp destroyed / 20 if saved for every additional level of Paladin. Add something into Divine Crusader to ramp up the numbers into Epic levels, likely adding your Epic Level to the save DC too. I would pay AP for that.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Easy access in context was referring to ease of use, not ease of acquisition. IPS is much easier to use effectively than other forms of AoE in the game, and unlike other forms of AoE it does not correspond to a DPS loss.
    Except that you need to make a short character (ie: Halfling, Gnome, etc) to use it on varied terrain, otherwise you'll end up shooting over things' heads.

    No other AoE requires you to make a specific race to use effectively (unless there's a racial I'm not thinking of).

    Though also needing almost all your Heroic feats and having the hardest stat requirement of any Heroic feat plus a high BAB requirement is, I think, far more of a cost than you all consider it as.

    I doubt you're going to read this, but I can't sleep, so I'm going to try to encapsulate everything I (personally) don't like about this upcoming update in the form of three suggestions/discussion topics. Hopefully it's useful.


    TLR for below:

    • Nerfing IPS is bad because it doesn't affect the overperformers enough and sledgehammers Bows
    • Split IPS into different stuff between Bows/Crossbows
    • Make melee much more survivable and mobile
    • Inquisitive's problem was interactions with other classes/trees
    • Universal Trees should be somewhat siloed in exchange for being Universal






    Ranged -

    I feel like nerfing IPS is a bad move, in the context of everything else.

    Bows (and builds using Bows) are different-enough from builds using Crossbows that IPS is honestly a different animal between the two.

    Bows are either a delivery vehicle for class features (Arcane Archer, DWS shots) or a ranged option for classes/builds that don't have access to a good one otherwise (Favored Weapons).

    Crossbows, across all three types, are there for damage. Their supporting trees all have the main purpose of adding damage to the shots, instead of adding effects to the shots.

    IPS fills a different niche for each. Bow builds get to take the weird stuff they can do and spread it across multiple targets (like Paralyzing Arrows). Crossbow builds finally get to start killing more than one thing at a time.

    I think the game would be better off, as a whole, if IPS became a Bow-only stance/feat. Remove the 20% nerf. Archer's Focus doesn't really need to exist because no amount of stacking damage buff is going to make a horde of enemies less likely to kill you.

    AoE's a necessity, single-target damage is a bonus.

    Are you able to see created characters and the feats they've taken? Because I'd bet that there probably won't be anyone with T5 Tempest without DoD, any Arcane Archer without IPS, or any THF characters without some form of Cleave.

    Weak enemies are too prevalent and too capable of body-blocking to make single-target focus a reliable design goal.

    Make it so Bows keep their existing AoE damage from IPS, and then do whatever it is you're SoonTM going to do to Bows.

    Crossbows are already tied tight to existing class/universal trees. GXB gets knockdown from Mechanic, Single Crossbows are unusable trash without Inquisitive, Repeaters are...eh, okay.

    Put the AoE for Crossbows in those trees, and use it as a way to nerf Inquisitive in the process (instead of taking a chainsaw to a multiplicative mix of stats). Swap "Stop in the Name" and "Improved Law"s positions in the tree, and make Stop in the Name/Arresting Assault be a two-step SLA-type thing as an AoE attack. To be really mean, make it scale off of Diplomacy with a bonus from Ranged Power or something.

    I don't really care what it looks like/acts like, but there's room there to stretch some points out that'd otherwise go to the bog standard 41 build.

    Mechanic's AoEs can be their (hopefully revamped) Alchemical Traps/shots. Same with Artificer and Battle Engineer.

    That way you can keep a tighter control on outgoing AoE damage from ranged characters, because the weapons that have trees solely dedicated to buffing their damage won't be able to broadly apply that damage.

    Then revert the Rapid Reload nerf. Making an already obfuscated feat interact differently with different weapon types and using that as a balancing mechanism is a recipe for having to make changes in the future when it's not obvious how it's going to interact with new stuff.

    This way you can tweak stuff for each weapon/tree combo more individually, without having to hammer all of them down using the same hammer.

    And I say this as someone relatively new to the game that has had more fun on my Inquisitive Cleric than I have with any other build I've played in my roughly two years of off and on play.

    Also, Clerics are probably the worst class in the game at the moment (before poor U45 Ranger...), and please never recommend Divine Disciple to anyone new to the game. It doesn't have enough damage for its SP to get through at-level content.

    But I digress.


    Melee vs Ranged Balance -

    First off, why aren't the Casters getting thrown into the nerf pit?

    Anyway.

    Ranged aren't doing "too much" AoE damage. Ranged are doing a sufficient amount of damage to keep up with the Casters, and Casters have more flexible AoE options while being at about the same resource pool duration (action boosts vs SP).

    They're both working, at least somewhat. That's the net result of the nuking spell changes you made and the Wizard EK/PM changes, both of which are fantastic.

    Problem is...where are melee supposed to fit into that?

    Melee aren't survivable enough or mobile-enough to keep uptime on what they're supposed to be hitting. No amount of nerfing Ranged DPS (AoE or otherwise) is going to change this.

    Changing relative winners/losers DPS-wise between the three archetypes, period, won't fix this. Because it's all about uptime. If the melee can't have uptime, it doesn't matter how hard they hit, or how weak the ranged hit, until you get to extremes where Ranged can't damage anything at all.

    Melee characters have to be able to live in melee and be able to hit things. Their potential dummy DPS or whatever is completely irrelevant so long as those first two things aren't solidly addressed.

    Charges are (hopefully) a big step forward on this, but I think you all need to take another look at what melee are supposed to be able to do.

    Making a "survivable" melee DPS shouldn't require a pile of past lives and a ton of Reaper points. It should be pretty much out of the box. Epic Defensive Fighting should start in Heroic and should scale upwards from there, cumulatively with whatever defensive stances are available in the "Tank" trees.

    Melee that start out at base double (or so) the survivability of a ranged character (and that scale upwards from there) and that can rapidly engage enemies suddenly have much more of a purpose.

    Combine that with soft-control options (like pull-ins or more access to stuff like AoE knockdown) and suddenly you have a reason for the melee to "go first", because they can actually get there first and do something useful.

    The "Melee vs the Rest of the Game" problem needs to be fixed on the melee end, not by nerfing everything else. They need to be built to be able to compete in a game where Beholders chuck eye lasers at you and Trapsmiths send out exploding constructs while Wisps pepper everyone with Force damage.


    Inquisitive-

    I addressed it a bit above, but I'm going to elaborate. When you benchmarked Great Crossbow against Dual Crossbow, did you include Sneak Attack on both? Because Sneak Attack is what broke Inquisitive, along with stupid-high amounts of Ranged Power. Great Crossbow can, for all practical purposes, be assumed to be joined at the hip to Rogue, and thus Mechanic, and thus Sneak Attack.

    But that doesn't mean that any other Ranged Weapon isn't going to try to gobble up as many Sneak Attack bonuses as it can.

    I think Inquisitive (and any Universal trees in the future like it) should be unable to benefit from Sneak Attack and other Class-specific forms of damage bonus (like EK toggles). It should be an either/or, not "both". Assuming the tech can handle it.

    Even just making Dual Shooter disable Sneak Attack from Rogue Class levels and making Law on your Side be mutually-exclusive with EK Spellsword would go a long way towards making Inquisitive less broken.

    And the idea would work just as well for future Universal trees.

    Silo them a bit and treat them like a mini "class", kinda like how Vistani doesn't allow you to be centered with Throwing Daggers. It'll save a lot of headaches in the future.



    Conclusion

    I don't feel the design space you've (differentiating broad Combat Styles at a class level) mentioned as your vehicle for targeting/addressing changes is going to end up with the results that you stated you want.

    Nerfing Ranged won't make melee survive any better or be any more mobile

    Nerfing IPS won't do much to overperforming Rogue-Inquisitive mixes

    Melee without survivable uptime and tools to keep it are basically useless balloons of HP, ready to be popped

    The monsters don't care that you have a bonus to single-target damage and an AoE penalty, they just want to kill you and are unwilling to negotiate.

    Inquisitive, if it were stand-alone tree that disallowed mixing with certain buffs, would probably have been fine.

    Also differentiating melee Styles based on single-target vs AoE has the same problem that nerfing ranged AoE has, you're just dealing with smaller numbers (number of AoE targets, time a melee character lives in Reaper, etc).




    Sorry if I've come off as rude, as that wasn't my intention. You've (devs plural, not you in particular) have done stuff I don't like, but also have done stuff I like, and the balance right now is more towards that last one.

    That's why I'm so verbose about how bad I think the upcoming changes are.

    Hope at least some of this is worth the read.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anasu View Post
    These problems will not go away.
    There you go, fixed it for you. There will be a new meta and it won't be what the devs predicted and people will complain that other people aren't playing the game "properly" and demand a nerf and the devs will eventually listen when they have something else to sell and we'll lose some more players and there will be a new meta... It's the circle of fail.

  15. #55
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    SSG would gain a lot of brownie points back if they stepped back, reconsidered the idea of nerfing a stable and balanced mechanic for ranged (aka. IPS), and instead corrected the Enhancement tree that is clearly too powerful (by your data) with that mechanic. (aka Inquisitor).

    Ranged characters will be cornered into REQUIRING the Inquisitive Enhancement tree in order to do the most damage. The game that is touted as allowing an amazing build diversity has started railroading towards the "One effective build path."

    But it seems like your responses to well stated (and also poorly stated) concerns about the changes are built on a diode concept; You can't go back and you won't change your minds when you've determined "the Way It Will Be."

    A conversation is both sides hearing one another.

    IPS worked very well until you introduced a new enhancement tree. Then you (SSG) determined Ranged was too powerful and decided to change a completely different variable than the one you introduced that caused the problem. Someone high up must absolutely love their beautiful child, the Inqui Enhancement tree. "It is their precious and no one is allowed to change it".

    The developer has lost credibility because of this standardized response (We have determined the course of action and we will not deviate despite the response.) You (SSG) ask for constructive feedback, claim to read all posts discussing the changes, and sail blithely on, ignoring the feedback.

    That's not the way to foster a long-lived entertainment. It's not the way to ensure a company that lasts long or profits.

    So is it "We hear you and we're not going to change this anyway" or is it "We don't care what you say, lalalalala."?
    I understand, Lynn, that you are frustrated, but so are many of us.

    Inquisitive, in retrospect, was designed more as a class then as an enhancement.
    Last edited by Jerevth; 01-20-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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  16. #56
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    The biggest issue is that ranged has been overpowered for so long, that it has erroneously become the baseline for a lot of the player base emotionally.

    Even before inquisitive, the ability for a ranged toon to do FULL single target physical DPS and do FULL AoE physical DPS while at full movement speed and being constantly out of melee range (the predominant form of mob damage in the game) and have that DPS be on par with top tier melee DPS is unbalanced. It has been since around U29 and only getting progressively worse with the addition of Reaper.

    The addition of Epic Defensive Fighting was a part of an effort to address the imbalance. It didn't do enough. I'd have done something different than IPS, but those changes would have probably been less popular. I think one (or some combination of) these would make more sense:

    1) Significant ROF penalty when ranged toons are attacking while moving or jumping. Lessen it if they have Shot on the run.
    2) Significant To-Hit penalty when ranged toons are attacking while moving or jumping. Lessen it if they have Shot on the run.
    3) Reduced movement speed when ranged toons are attacking while moving. Lessen it if they have Shot on the run.
    4) The equivalent to an attack of opportunity when a ranged weapon is being used while a mob is in melee range (unless the mob is held/tripped/stunned/dazed, etc). Reduced defenses for the ranged toon from those attacks.
    5) Reduced To-Hit and/or RoF when a ranged weapon is being used while a mob is in melee range and is aggro'd on them (unless the mob is held/tripped/stunned/dazed, etc).

    Compared to those, a nerf to IPS might be preferable. I don't know.

    I do know that the idea that you can strike multiple targets with a single projectile and have full ranged power on each one doesn't make sense. If you fire a bullet or arrow and it passes through the first target, the second target is getting hit with less force. That makes sense. Honestly, IPS should not be an option with a throwing star or throwning dagger anyways. How exactly does a shuriken pass through 3-4 targets? I could see a crossbow bolt or arrow doing it (if it was only going through soft tissue on the first target) but allowing that feat to work with all ranged options is, by itself, over powered, and creates the issue we have where bows are less DPS somehow than stars and daggers, even at long excessively long ranges. (But that is a balance issue between different ranged combat styles. And that is a different topic)

    Regardless, if you don't like the IPS nerf for all ranged, what solution do you propose for balancing melee and ranged? Just not nerfing IPS isn't a solution. It still leaves a problem to be solved.
    Last edited by Renvar; 01-20-2020 at 11:12 AM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renvar View Post
    I do know that the idea that you can strike multiple targets with a single projectile and have full ranged power on each one doesn't make sense. If you fire a bullet or arrow and it passes through the first target, the second target is getting hit with less force. That makes sense. Honestly, IPS should not be an option with a throwing star or throwning dagger anyways. How exactly does a shuriken pass through 3-4 targets? I could see a crossbow bolt or arrow doing it (if it was only going through soft tissue on the first target) but allowing that feat to work with all ranged options is, by itself, over powered, and creates the issue we have where bows are less DPS somehow than stars and daggers, even at long excessively long ranges. (But that is a balance issue between different ranged combat styles. And that is a different topic)
    This is irrelevant because if you hit someone with a sword and don't cut them in half you don't hit anything else with the same swing and if you're going to apply logic then cleaves hit one target and magic doesn't exist. This isn't reality, it's a fantasy MMO. The changes to ranged are over the top and balance should be applied by making melee better, not making ranged worse.

  18. #58
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loholt-UK View Post
    The changes to ranged are over the top and balance should be applied by making melee better, not making ranged worse.
    Ok. How would you suggest? My suggestions for improving melees would be to look at one or more of the following:

    1) Alter Dire Charge to only work with your primary melee damage stat and only work with a melee weapon equipped.
    2) Add more AoE CC options for melees (using feats) that take effect before level 29. Similar to Dire Charge but ones that work on different types of mobs or attack different saves values so that there are more options and strategy.
    3) Increase the PRR advantages of heavy and medium armor. Dodge/Evasion/SA builds are doing better than Heavy Armor/Medium Armor builds.
    4) Increase the MRR cap for light armor melees and add some MRR for DPS melees. Require melee weapon equipped. Put it in the Core 6 for Shintao, Tempest, Kensai, Ravager, Berzerker, and Assassin.
    5) Increase the Attack Speed on the shield mastery feats to make a one handed melee weapon + shield be a viable offensive option with some defense. Add defensive benefits of shields via feats with pre-reqs or in trees that limit the access by ranged and casters.

    Melees don't need more DPS, per se. They need more ability to avoid and/or absorb damage.

    The point that is being made, overall, is that generic comments like "don't nerf IPS" and "I don't like this" and "buff melee don't nerf ranged" are OK not particularly actionable. It is helpful to get a feel for the community, but it is more helpful to propose solutions you think make sense than to just neg presented solutions you don't like.
    Last edited by Renvar; 01-20-2020 at 12:03 PM.
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  19. #59
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Why? Give us your feedback. Just telling us "I don't like it" doesn't help us improve.
    Since you asked.

    Don't use IPS changes to reel in Inquisitive. Reel it in by target the excessive bonus that are available in the inquisitive tree (law dice, rate of fire, ranged power, etc). Preferably directly rather than burying them in reduced effectiveness of rapid reload and scaling tweaks that are hard to spot.

    If you really need to reduce the effectiveness of IPS (it should wait until Bow changes are implemented IMHO) do not use the blanket 20% less damage that you first pitched. Having to swap stances to avoid the 20% penalty when you have a single target is not fun. Make it automatically reduce the damage on any mobs past the first so that one doesn't have to swap back and forth. At the very least remove all cooldown and invocation time on IPS stance.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renvar View Post
    Ok. How would you suggest? My suggestions for improving melees would be to look at one or more of the following:

    1) Alter Dire Charge to only work with your primary melee damage stat and only work with a melee weapon equipped.
    2) Add more AoE CC options for melees (using feats) that take effect before level 29. Similar to Dire Charge but ones that work on different types of mobs or attack different saves values so that there are more options and strategy.
    3) Increase the PRR advantages of heavy and medium armor. Dodge/Evasion/SA builds are doing better than Heavy Armor/Medium Armor builds.
    4) Increase the MRR cap for light armor melees and add some MRR for DPS melees. Require melee weapon equipped. Put it in the Core 6 for Shintao, Tempest, Kensai, Ravager, Berzerker, and Assassin.
    5) Increase the Attack Speed on the shield mastery feats to make a one handed melee weapon + shield be a viable offensive option with some defense. Add defensive benefits of shields via feats with pre-reqs or in trees that limit the access by ranged and casters.

    Melees don't need more DPS, per se. They need more ability to avoid and/or absorb damage.

    The point that is being made, overall, is that generic comments like "don't nerf IPS" and "I don't like this" and "buff melee don't nerf ranged" are OK not particularly actionable. It is helpful to get a feel for the community, but it is more helpful to propose solutions you think make sense than to just neg presented solutions you don't like.
    I have no idea how to improve melee, I avoid melee classes like the plague and have always preferred ranged classes. But your suggestions look fine. Making them more survivable by ramping up PRR especially, fighters should be able to soak up a few hits. Some changes to the AI would benefit too. Enemy casters should see ranged toons as their main threat because we are, a wizard isn't going to get up close and personal with a fighter by choice so initially the threat should remain with the ranged unless the fighters get too close. This is a PVE game and I think we would all benefit from some changes to the AI.

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