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  1. #21
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Sums it up pretty good.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Zer0AcmE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Such as? If you don't tell us what you don't like, we don't have a way of knowing what you want.



    I can tell you that the best way to ensure your feedback isn't respected is to provide no feedback whatsoever. I'd like to give you what you want, but without specifics, telling me that "you're unhappy" doesn't give me anything to work with.

    Fine, you want direct feedback, here it is from someone that spent time on Lama and listened to the Devs take and answer questions:

    1. Leave IPS alone, it's been there since the dawn of time, quit telling us how the game should be played and simply let us PLAY it!!!

    2. Yes Inquis needs nerfing (this coming from someone currently playing one), but DON'T do it at the expense of other range builds, simply lessen the law damage dice and the rate of fire coming from the double crossbows.

    3. DO NOT over power Alchemist simply for the point of selling it, I've already seen it, you scale poison damage properly it will be even worse!!!

    4. Give Paladin a proper overhaul, KotC bonuses only work against two monster types, outside of that they're still average at best.

    5. Give the pure Fighter and Paladin builds proper bonuses to allow them to tank on even ground with multi class builds (Fighter was good, Paladin was well behind, I built both out on Lama, Paladin was 500 HP and 50 AC behind Fighter, as well much lower PRR and MRR but that is to be expected due to the Fighter feats)

    6. Even out the HP bonus properly, all of those is the racial trees (Dwarf, Bladeforge, Aasimar) should be labeled racial, the other like Falconry, etc...can be labeled Quality.

    7. You make Aasimar pay 16 RACIAL points for it's HP bonus, leave it 10% and make it a RACIAL bonus, if you invest that many points you should be rewarded accordingly and don't force people away from making Aasimar Paladins (currently both bonuses are Sacred) simply cause you don't want to see them played (the Devs speaking to the crowd on Lama the other night confirmed this was the intention), again don't tell us how to play the game, just let us PLAY IT!!!

    Hope you find this informative....

  3. #23
    Community Member Zer0AcmE's Avatar
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    Almost forgot, nerf Sorcs and wolves, both are unbalancing the game.

  4. #24
    Static Guy Xgemina's Avatar
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    I still waiting for a Dev to explain how 3 feats, BAB 11 and base Dex 19 = easy access.
    Per Cocomajobo - Ranged has easy access to AOE - apparently 3 feats, BAB 11 and Dex 19 is considered easy access these days. post here

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgemina View Post
    I still waiting for a Dev to explain how 3 feats, BAB 11 and base Dex 19 = easy access.
    Easy access in context was referring to ease of use, not ease of acquisition. IPS is much easier to use effectively than other forms of AoE in the game, and unlike other forms of AoE it does not correspond to a DPS loss.
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  6. #26
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zer0AcmE View Post
    Almost forgot, nerf Sorcs and wolves, both are unbalancing the game.
    Sorcs being left almost untouched (and non-Sorcs being smacked down in Draconic) is what makes me the most surprised about the massive ranged combat nerds and the disappointing THF changes (although the THF changes could be turned around 100% by letting them proc on special attacks like Cleave instead of just on the “blank” attacks).

    Ive been playing Sorc for a little more than 2 months now and it’s even better than Inquisitive for most players. I don’t know if the top end is better than Inquisitives too end, but just Sharn gear and no raid gear is just straight up bonkers.

    But let’s nerf IPS because Arcane Archers have is ok much AOE...
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  7. #27
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zer0AcmE View Post
    Yes Inquis needs nerfing (this coming from someone currently playing one), but DON'T do it at the expense of other range builds, simply lessen the law damage dice and the rate of fire coming from the double crossbows.
    perhaps more troubling than the realized predictions of inquisitive nerfs being timed with the next p2p class/etc. are the realized predictions that exactly this would happen to all the other ranged builds

  8. #28
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Easy access in context was referring to ease of use, not ease of acquisition. IPS is much easier to use effectively than other forms of AoE in the game, and unlike other forms of AoE it does not correspond to a DPS loss.
    What do you think the baseline of AOE attacks should be before the last couple of levels? (i.e. before dire charge)
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Easy access in context was referring to ease of use, not ease of acquisition. IPS is much easier to use effectively than other forms of AoE in the game, and unlike other forms of AoE it does not correspond to a DPS loss.
    That seems to be more of a shortcoming with other forms of AOE than an issue with IPS...it was never an issue for years, no one complained about it, and now suddenly its breaking the meta. If Ranger and Arti and Shuri werent breaking the meta before Inqui, then how are they suddenly breaking it now?

    IPS is fun to use in its current iteration. Other approaches should be made equally fun.

    E.g. THF should do secondary damage to all mobs in range, not just 2-3 targets, like I keep saying.
    Last edited by droid327; 01-18-2020 at 04:51 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zer0AcmE View Post

    4. Give Paladin a proper overhaul, KotC bonuses only work against two monster types, outside of that they're still average at best.
    Paladin holistic overhaul is way more than they can fit into the patch. Also its unnecessary. The only systemic problem with Pal, really, is the DPS - and KotC is their DPS tree. Their spellbook is fine, their class mechanics are fine, their defensive trees are fine (well S&B could use a little polish but that's not just about Pals)

    KotC needs a lot more love than the preview gave them, though...

    - Gaxe should be Favored alongside Gsword, give more options for THF.
    - Light Damage core imbue should follow EK progression, give a real incentive to go 18/ or 20 Pal. Scale 400% Melee Power, again to make it more comparable to EK imbues that scale on Spellpower. The light power should be a sizeable component of KotC DPS. They're shining warriors of light. Or make it Good damage if that feels more thematically appropriate, both are pretty much 'universal' damage types.
    - 10% runspeed, they should be front-line fighters charging to the fore
    - Some kind of health-on-hit mechanic:
    -- Add an Ameliorating Strike as a Favored Weapon T4 attack
    -- T5 - Vorpal hits with Favored Weapons give you Temp HP equal to your CHA score, double in Epic
    -- T5 - clone Blood Strength from Barb

  11. #31
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Sorcs being left almost untouched (and non-Sorcs being smacked down in Draconic) is what makes me the most surprised about the massive ranged combat nerds and the disappointing THF changes (although the THF changes could be turned around 100% by letting them proc on special attacks like Cleave instead of just on the “blank” attacks).

    Ive been playing Sorc for a little more than 2 months now and it’s even better than Inquisitive for most players. I don’t know if the top end is better than Inquisitives too end, but just Sharn gear and no raid gear is just straight up bonkers.

    But let’s nerf IPS because Arcane Archers have is ok much AOE...

    Sorcerer itself is not OP, if the class gets seriously tinkered with, it will be just another high investment necromage, i think we have plenty of those for now, not counting weird MCs.

    Sorcerer scaling in heroics is about 70-75% gear and Meta Magic feats. Typically less than 1/3 of their scaling is coming from the build, and the spell base damage is very close to 1 full attack cycle with a twohander, building up DCs actually takes time (save for half on many spells). The spell base damage is pretty spot on, hundreds of spell power is not. In Epics it gets a little more complicated, very large buffs of power becomes available again that is outside of Sorcerer, feats, EDs...it gets saturated a lot.

    I actually dont mind cutting out some spellpower from Sorcerer, but anything else is potentially terminating to the class as a nuker build. (aka useless in reaper runs). Another potential fix would be to move up the caster levels into the 18/20 cores, so inside heroic the boosts are somewhat less front loaded. Tho the bases actually arent too far, Chain Lightning @ CL22 * avg(7,12) => 209 average damage. Very close to optimized attack cycles even before activated W attacks. I was thinking to respond to some of the posts in balance threads with pretty pictures, but honestly everyone could just do the math and engineerd kobold screenshots are "meh" anyway.

    The real fix for Sorcerer is Metamagic feats scaling more gracefully/granularly, and possibly the ravenloft belt getting hammered (i like the belt at much as you do, i really do, but choosing it or the class viability? the then belt has to go ).


    As a lasts word about Sorcerer, it is not comparable to a universal tree where you can choose to build in defense, healing, utility etc; Players keep comparing class to uni tree, an Inq Sorcerer is possible while likely suboptimal in many ways. A trapping Sorcerer is already suboptimal, while most Inq builds remain top tier with it, same goes for evasion..etc.


    Lynnabel is spot on about IPS, set it and forget it stance for regular content. (outside raids)
    Last edited by janave; 01-18-2020 at 05:17 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Signed.

    Speaking for only myself, I gave up on supplying any specific feedback a long time ago. I gave up on the test or preview servers, too. As well as reporting bugs.

    I was once extremely passionate about this game. The term "fanboy" was pretty much created for the degree I was drinking the DDO Kool-Aid. But, the game has had Devs in the past who would create punitive measures in response to feedback. There is one particularly hideous piece of armor that was created in direct response to players asking for better looking armor. A Dev once worked on their own time because he hated that you used to be able to spin your character while sitting at rest shrines, implemented it, and when players complained about the suddenly missing quirk... they were told to shut up. I also had a Developer tell me on the invite-only test server that he was glad I didn't like something being tested because "It wasn't for you." There are a multitude of other examples, sadly...

    Now, I just take the game as it comes. My initial reaction to changes hasn't dulled over the years - but my impulse to be vocal about it (outside of very rare occasions) has been. And while it is true that the current Dev team has gotten much better... there is still a perception among players that y'all don't measure twice and cut once. Vocal negative feedback has gone unacknowledged and changes unmade. New features are regularly either nakedly overpowered necessitating future nerfing (and prompting complaints of bait-and-switch tactics, since the nerfs seem to come just before the next OP thing we will need to buy) or harsh nerfs to existing features that seem to be blown out of proportion to the general population in response to very niche and narrow examples of over-performance.

    My enthusiasm for the game has waxed and waned over the intervening years. U45 is looking like it's going to be waning cycle, because I am also really unhappy with a lot of what I've seen on the docket. I'm poking my head out of my shell of self-imposed ennui just this once to say so, since you asked and I very much respect what you have done as a developer, Lynn. But, I don't expect any actual change to occur as a result. For a long time, I used the image of Charlie Brown getting dumped on his butt trying to kick the football as the summation of how I felt towards DDO Development. I got a fair share of my Legendary Reputation status from those posts because a lot of folks agreed with it. . I'm tired of ending up on my butt... and, rightly or wrongly, I still feel like that will be the only result from trying to alter any future development.



    100%

    Thanks for sharing your experience. It helps prevent the gaslighting which makes people who feel the same way you do feel isolated.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Oh, I get that. I just haven't seen enough positive changes in that regard without my input to give me faith again to try again. I've actually been a happier player by reducing my expectations and my input here beyond being a goofus. I just stop playing the parts of the game I find odious - be it classes or quests or features - and focus on the parts of the game I have fun with. I have found a way to have my own fun despite overall direction changes, nerfs, and other problematic issues as I see them.

    While the request for input isn't quite the honeypot trap I used to see it as - it's still a degree of investment I can't yet bring myself to reattain. I feel bad about that, but I just can't.
    Ditto.

    +1
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  14. #34
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkendex View Post
    (Amber temple mess, for example)
    I still haven't played that quest, so I'll come to that like a virgin. I'll see what it contains, and since I don't know how it was before, I'll naturally adapt to what I get. Oh, and I won't play it in Reaper.

    Now, every Reaper player will call me a troll now because in their eyes I'm defending that quest. Everyone will of course say "he doesn't know what he's talking about".
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  15. #35
    Static Guy Xgemina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Easy access in context was referring to ease of use, not ease of acquisition. IPS is much easier to use effectively than other forms of AoE in the game, and unlike other forms of AoE it does not correspond to a DPS loss.
    Lynn, Coco's post (written by Steel) says nothing about ease of use nor can I see anything in it that implies that in any way. If it's supposed to mean that, then y'all need to be clear on it. To me, the post simply boils down to "We made Inq too good, gonna nerf Inq and IPS (ranged), 'cause THF melees. Oh, and we'll put a bandaid out for bow users later."*

    And, if it was to mean it's too easy to use, I point out how easy it is to hit 1, 2, 3 for cleave, gtr cleave, whirlwind - well that is if a macro hasn't been set up.

    Granted I understand the bow bandaid is coming out sooner now than later and, yes, THF melee's needed some help. Nerfing IPS isn't the solution to helping out the poor, little THF melees. It's just going to lead to aggravation and more kiting.

    This is my last post on the matter, clearly the decision is made on IPS no matter what players say (admittedly there's like 6 folks saying "yeah, nerf those ranged types"), it's obvious it's going to happen. The cycle continues, ranged gets nerfed this time, THF melees get a a bit of a buff(?) and some play style will get the hammer next time.

    *Lets face it, the whole balancing to Hardcore debacle could have been avoided if things were clearer in all the official U45 posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    For some context about these changes:

    As we approach each Hardcore season, one of our goals is to make changes that change how you build and play characters - We want to shake up builds and strategies, and it makes sense to align these game-wide changes with the release of new seasons of the Hardcore League. Season 2 is coming very soon, so U45 contains a lot of the balance changes for the season. Some of this process involves identifying underperforming builds and making changes to boost them - KOTC and Two Handed Fighting changes are a big part of this in this Season. However, this process also involves identifying overperforming builds and archetypes and making adjustments as well.

    ...
    [*]Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?
    • ?Looking in the context of ranged combat vs. melee combat, there are significant issues with Ranged's easy access to AOE on hit (something we believe should be more highly incentivized in the THF Melee style) and current lack of incentive to focus on single targets. This last one led to the changes to Archer's Focus (boosting single-target damage) and Improved Precise Shot (allowing you to continue to AOE as you did before, but at a cost), as well as the presence of a few Melee-centric changes (such as KOTC's new Lead the Charge enhancement and the updated Spring Attack) that let Melees get into attacking range faster.
    [/LIST]

    We're going to evaluate these changes on Lamannia and make tweaks if needed. We'll keep an eye on things once U45 goes live as well, and keep making tweaks if needed. Our goal isn't to invalidate builds, it's to make an ecosystem where melee and ranged are more balanced. Our initial approach with Inquisitive was to pair it to Great Crossbow in terms of DPS; our mistakes were not realizing sooner that Great Crossbows were stronger (on a broad level) than they should be, and underestimating certain multiclass options that really minmax Inquisitive.


    • *What about bows???

      • We recognize that some of the overall-ranged changes in this update reduce the amount of AOE damage that Bows can produce. However, between Archer's Focus (being a boon to Bow builds' single-target damage) and updated Deepwood Stalker, there are some boosts in this update as well. We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.


    -SteelStar

    ...
    emphasis added
    Per Cocomajobo - Ranged has easy access to AOE - apparently 3 feats, BAB 11 and Dex 19 is considered easy access these days. post here

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  16. #36
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    Better idea . . .take all of these ideas (except for the iquisitive nerfs) and start over. These ideas are that bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Why? Give us your feedback. Just telling us "I don't like it" doesn't help us improve.
    No, I am sorry. I am done with feedback for a while. My last involvement for a long time will be Flimsy's joke of a nerf thread. I am tired of the unprofessionalism SSG shows in regarding communication and especially handling feedback with the players. Your company is in desperate need of a Public Relations professional that specializes in these subjects.

    Memnir worded it very accurately in both his answers. +1, Sir (I need to spread some more Reputation, sry).

    I am well aware that this sounds like a cop-out. But my time is too precious to invest it in feedback that won't be handled appropriately or at all. I decided to vote with my wallet a long time ago. This is the way it is. I am just sad it went that way.

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zer0AcmE View Post
    Fine, you want direct feedback, here it is from someone that spent time on Lama and listened to the Devs take and answer questions:

    1. Leave IPS alone, it's been there since the dawn of time, quit telling us how the game should be played and simply let us PLAY it!!!

    2. Yes Inquis needs nerfing (this coming from someone currently playing one), but DON'T do it at the expense of other range builds, simply lessen the law damage dice and the rate of fire coming from the double crossbows.

    3. DO NOT over power Alchemist simply for the point of selling it, I've already seen it, you scale poison damage properly it will be even worse!!!

    4. Give Paladin a proper overhaul, KotC bonuses only work against two monster types, outside of that they're still average at best.

    5. Give the pure Fighter and Paladin builds proper bonuses to allow them to tank on even ground with multi class builds (Fighter was good, Paladin was well behind, I built both out on Lama, Paladin was 500 HP and 50 AC behind Fighter, as well much lower PRR and MRR but that is to be expected due to the Fighter feats)

    6. Even out the HP bonus properly, all of those is the racial trees (Dwarf, Bladeforge, Aasimar) should be labeled racial, the other like Falconry, etc...can be labeled Quality.

    7. You make Aasimar pay 16 RACIAL points for it's HP bonus, leave it 10% and make it a RACIAL bonus, if you invest that many points you should be rewarded accordingly and don't force people away from making Aasimar Paladins (currently both bonuses are Sacred) simply cause you don't want to see them played (the Devs speaking to the crowd on Lama the other night confirmed this was the intention), again don't tell us how to play the game, just let us PLAY IT!!!

    Hope you find this informative....

    I like all of this with two more:

    8. I don't like Dance of Death nerf- ever since it got revealed on Discord that the Devs thought Rangers were somehow overperforming (I guess the same mysterious database which flagged Henshin monks) we have been awaiting the dreaded nerf-hammer. Just STOP it, please.

    9. Ditch all the THF changes. Ask the player base what would work and we will help you. Y'all don't ask us for help when we are one of the pillars holding up this game. Why create this whole new 'Strikethough' mechanic and paste it all over the spaghetti code we have to slog through with all the lag when there are great suggestions for alacrity, glancing blows, etc. already out there?

  19. #39
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Sorcs being left almost untouched (and non-Sorcs being smacked down in Draconic) is what makes me the most surprised about the massive ranged combat nerds and the disappointing THF changes (although the THF changes could be turned around 100% by letting them proc on special attacks like Cleave instead of just on the “blank” attacks).

    Ive been playing Sorc for a little more than 2 months now and it’s even better than Inquisitive for most players. I don’t know if the top end is better than Inquisitives too end, but just Sharn gear and no raid gear is just straight up bonkers.

    But let’s nerf IPS because Arcane Archers have is ok much AOE...
    Sorcs are being smacked down in Draconic as much as anyone Dragon Breath is a huge part of their dps and really the thing that may work on evasion based mobs along with energy burst due to higher dcs. Both require you to be reasonably close to the mobs and are a leading cause of my sorcs deaths. People often like to think that sorcs dps have no checks on them but the sheer number of evasion mobs beg to differ. Apparently all sharn artificers splash 2 levels of rogue. Yes there are non evasion spells like polar ray that you can use to eventually kill the mob but it brings you to a stop.
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  20. #40
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Sorcs are being smacked down in Draconic as much as anyone Dragon Breath is a huge part of their dps and really the thing that may work on evasion based mobs along with energy burst due to higher dcs. Both require you to be reasonably close to the mobs and are a leading cause of my sorcs deaths. People often like to think that sorcs dps have no checks on them but the sheer number of evasion mobs beg to differ. Apparently all sharn artificers splash 2 levels of rogue. Yes there are non evasion spells like polar ray that you can use to eventually kill the mob but it brings you to a stop.
    I’m really enjoying my Fire Sorc for the last 2+ months. If it doesn’t get nerfed, I’ll be happy because I’m having fun with it (not even in Draconic - I’m very happy in Magister). But as I’ve been playing it, I can tell that it’s above the curve in power and I’m honestly shocked that SSG is nerfing all of ranged and not touching Arcane casters except for the one slowdown in Draconic.
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