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  1. #1
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Default Scion of ethereal plane changes feedback

    The the change to scion of ethereal plane is not necessarily a bad change, but it hurts the players that invest in SA like rogues, rangers, and monks. The borderline for taking scion of arboria over scion of ethereal is about 130 hide meaning you should take ethereal if your have over 130 hide if you want more damage. With the changes being made that it is based on rank of the skill, which maxes at 23. 23 *1.5=34.5 SA. Unchanged on my rogue it was 160/3=53 SA damage. Thats a 35% decrease. That is a significant decrease.

    That being said, I'd like to purpose a alternate change. My guess is that scion of ethereal was changed for the reason being that high melee/ranged power toons were getting too much advantage from it just from the sheer value of melee ranged power that was possible (like 400), because SA scales with 1.5x your RP/MP. How about instead of nerfing it for those players you make it more geared towards the plays style it was intended for, rogue/rangers/monks. Change all SA increasing enhancements (not gear) to 1d8 die or more and scale back the benefit of MP/RP from 1.5x to 1x. This better retains the SA for classes that are supposed to have it.

    Calculations: 100 ranged/melee power, 10 SA dice and scion as it is now at 150 hide.
    10*3.5=35 SA + 50 SA =85 SA * 2.5 (mp) = 212.5 SA so 212.
    10*4.5 =45 SA +50 SA = 95 SA * 2 = 190 SA 212/190 = 11.6% decrease in SA.

    That is half the reduction in SA damage for people who take scion of ethereal then if the new changes went live.

    How i got half reduction
    10*3.5 =35 SA + 50 (150 hide/3) = 85 Vs
    10*3.5= 35 SA + 34.5 (new change SA) = 69.5
    85/69.5 = 22.3% decrease. 11.6 is half of 22.3

    Thoughts?

    Many scion feats are scaling to some degree for damage purposes. Like feywild scaling with SP. This change to scion of the ethreal plane will no longer scale in to epics well and there will be no reward for gearing your toon with hide bonuses and instead it only rewards with melee power bonuses. It scales with rank, but you cant change your rank beyond level 20 and you cant scale rank with gear. So it needs to be scalable to more of a degree then just melee power. This may be too much work for to handle and im not sure how hard it would be change all the enhancements to d8s or d10s. I thought id at least but the idea out there.

    Thanks for reading.

  2. #2
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    Thanks for the analysis! I'm very interested in ideas to help the new Scion of the Ethereal Plane scale into epics better. If you've got a cool suggestion, let me know! That being said, abilities that scale off of skills have the potential to be increasingly viable as the game progresses, which means that Scion was beginning to eclipse other options - and this problem would only get worse with time. Ideally the Scion feats are equally usable and equally viable, and the key to that is avoiding certain scaling functions that have the potential to increase in effectiveness in an effort to prevent constant redesigning.
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  3. #3
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    I'm curious which Scion feat does SSG think goes well with Alchemist?

    Why does Scion of the Ethereal give blur (available at lv4 on item) and not lesser displacement (available as early as lvl 10)? Probably not necessary with end game equipment but any reason it doesn't give Ghostly?

    I'm still surprised Scion of the Feywild has no musical or bardic component. No extra songs or extra song duration.

    None give Transmutation DCs, extra rages, extra smites, extra turns, or extra light damage which could be less than the 2d20 of other types since it is less resisted.

    Will Scion of the Astral now also give 4% Strike Through Chance? Will that go somewhere else?

    Just curiosities.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I'm curious which Scion feat does SSG think goes well with Alchemist?
    Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 01-17-2020 at 04:18 PM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....
    I'm guessing that one attractive option will be 7 Wizard levels with 12 Alchemist levels and Scion of Shadowfell.

    I'm surprised that you said that people would take their element because the elements only give +10 spell power for that type. It's the "extra" bonuses like spell crit or +DC for spells or defensive bonuses, etc. that make the various Scions attractive.

    I don't think anyone is going to take a Scion for the elemental damage bonus unless they just misread the bonus and think it's +100.
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Why does Scion of the Ethereal give blur (available at lv4 on item) and not lesser displacement (available as early as lvl 10)?
    Good question. Even more so, since Blur is available at level 3 (Bracers of Wind).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I'm surprised that you said that people would take their element because the elements only give +10 spell power for that type. It's the "extra" bonuses like spell crit or +DC for spells or defensive bonuses, etc. that make the various Scions attractive.
    Exactly. I don't expect to play one any time soon, but if I did, Plane of Earth would be my clear choice. They told us Alchemist spells are almost all Transmutation (no Scion feat for that) and Conjuration.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I'm guessing that one attractive option will be 7 Wizard levels with 12 Alchemist levels and Scion of Shadowfell.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thanks for the analysis! I'm very interested in ideas to help the new Scion of the Ethereal Plane scale into epics better. If you've got a cool suggestion, let me know! That being said, abilities that scale off of skills have the potential to be increasingly viable as the game progresses, which means that Scion was beginning to eclipse other options - and this problem would only get worse with time. Ideally the Scion feats are equally usable and equally viable, and the key to that is avoiding certain scaling functions that have the potential to increase in effectiveness in an effort to prevent constant redesigning.
    I'm sorry but how about leaving it alone? In-game experience shows that Dex-based toons with Scion of Ethereal DO NOT and NEVER DID eclipse other options or make said builds OP in any situation at endgame. Outside of Dex Assassins, maybe.

    If you proceed with proposed changes everyone will just switch to Arborea b/c it most definitely will overshadow Ethereal.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komradkillingmachine View Post
    I'm sorry but how about leaving it alone? In-game experience shows that Dex-based toons with Scion of Ethereal DO NOT and NEVER DID eclipse other options or make said builds OP in any situation at endgame. Outside of Dex Assassins, maybe.

    If you proceed with proposed changes everyone will just switch to Arborea b/c it most definitely will overshadow Ethereal.
    It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.
    I really do appreciate you're trying to creep-proof a feature Too many multiplicative scalars that end up becoming balance issues down the road...

    Why does Eth need to be based on a skill at all, then? None of the other Scions give any benefits that are based on your stats. Why not just change Eth to be a flat +X sneak damage? Sneak damage is already a fairly specific, situational mechanic, its not universal damage like Arborea. What's the design philosophy behind making it specifically tied to builds investing in Hide, as opposed to just investing in utilizing the Sneak mechanic (Bluff, Sniper Shot, Blind effects, etc.)?

  12. #12
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.
    Thanks for the context - truly appreciated. I don't love the design philosophy behind that and argue why below. It's obviously just my passionate hot take and not meant disrespectfully; the chance to engage meaningfully on DDO's direction is awesome and I'm aware I don't know what else is in the pipeline.

    Arborea scales multiplicatively with way more stuff
    - RP/MP is too prominent in DDO's current design philosophy
    - Whether Ethereal or Arborea scale more entirely depends on how you guys move forward in the future.
    - There's a ton of stuff you might increase that will scale for Arborea disproportionately as Ethereal has a 1:0 benefit from them:

    Things Arborea scales upward with
    Basically all increases to damage that aren't related to MP/RP - my inqui's list is:
    50.75 Base Weapon damage (Xbow from Same Old Song) (so [W])
    53 Ability mod to weapon damage (Int)
    17 Deadly
    8 I Deadly
    5 Q Deadly
    4 P Deadly (Litany)
    2 R Deadly (Dread Adversary)
    0 A Deadly (Slaver's but too gimpy in context)
    6 PL Ranger
    3 PL Monk
    3 Enchant Weapon PL
    6.5 Combat Archery (so [W])
    6.5 Dance of Flowers (so [W])
    6.5 Point Blank Shot (so [W])
    26 KTA (so Ability to damage)
    6 Inqui Crossbow [all Enhancements that specifically just add damage though, including KTA / Deadly instincts and the like that will grow with stats]

    Then there's all the actual sneak attack damage that only benefits from Arborea and not Ethereal
    24.5 Sneak Attack
    7 Wraith Form SA
    0 Assassin SA Enh (too hard)
    27 Deception
    13 I Deception
    6 Q Deception
    3 Rogue PL
    17.5 Shadow Dancer
    10.5 Wildwood

    Then there's also
    - Law Damage,
    - Rune Arm damage,
    - Harbinger of Law/Chaos
    - Seeker
    - Clickie attacks (this one's massive and super hard to spreadsheet given you'd need to work out frequency of Hunt's End-Shoot Laters, but I'd put money it's very significant)
    - and this is just looking at my inquisitor build.

    Things Ethereal scales upward with
    It scales off:
    - RP/MP
    - Hide
    - Dex at a third order (6 Dex : 3 Hide : 1 SA)

    I don't think I'm being unfair in saying the issue is Ethereal scaling off RP/MP (though if the dev team is actually, 'heck yeah stealth gameplay U47 where the stacking hide items at?' I am very on board).

    Scaling Upward

    Spreading power creep across multiple bases instead of just RP/MP, so the game is not "What has the highest RP in the game, it's Inquisitor and Shiradi" would be a really good direction moving forward.
    - I totally get that an injection of RP/MP into some gimp tree somewhere could band-aid some problems and think that in places it's probably appropriate given it exists in a few places now. It's like a fungal growth, but one that could be useful; think penicillin.

    But, in general, it'd be great to not consider MP/RP the way forward for developing the game?
    - Incremental raw base damage / sneak attack / gradual stat increases are so much more attractive for keeping everything viable, build diversity alive, and makes balance a game of inches rather than miles.
    - Pre-Epic DDO had this and we still S/S/S hunted like crazy for +4 Deadly from Epic Claw Set.
    - I've mouthed off a little about inquisitor but pinpointing what specifically made it OP was genuinely hard. I think, though, that it was the unparalleled 35 Ranged Power compared with all the existing trees with like, 20 RP, from mechanic - which already was the clear choice over the other ranged trees with less.
    - Ranged Power and Melee Power are wildly blunt instruments that are causing this, and other issues. It's not Ethereal. Ethereal as it stands is super cool and makes for interesting build and gear choices.

    DDO is a rich and beautiful tapestry

    - The builds using this should come into it.
    - As should the items and class splits (and even other feats and enhancements) that are using it.
    - You can't make a Dex build on live right now that isn't a little dps gimped and this feat is part of what keeps them semi-viable.
    - Whether the characters using the feat are OP or not should be a large factor in the decision to-nerf-or-not-to-nerf. I would argue more so than potential issues down the road that hopefully won't even eventuate if we can all power down on the Power.

    Again, I do genuinely appreciate the frankness of the post. That the dev team, some more than others (in a good way!), are so forthcoming about where their heads are at is freaking magic. If a bunch of seemingly crazy nerfs came out of nowhere I'd just bail. This way, if it does proceed, I'll cop it and try and convince you all again later about how we should cool off on the RP/MP.

    Please leave Scion of the Ethereal Plane unchanged.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Rauven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.
    As Avocado showed, using base ranks alone is a nerf to Ethereal. The cutoff point for taking Ethereal over Arborea is a hide of 130, which equates to 43 bonus sneak attack. Your concern is that Ethereal doesn't scale well because there is, theoretically, no limit to how high one could get their hide score. Currently, Ethereal adds +4 to all skills. If you could allow those four points to count toward the base then the calculation would be:

    (23 base + 4 Ethereal) * 1.5 = 40.5 bonus sneak attack damage - equivalent to a 121 hide under current Ethereal

    While that is a little below the numerical cutoff for Arborea over Ethereal it is closer than the current proposed change and much less of a nerf to Ethereal.

    Alternatively, if you allow half epic skill ranks to count then the balance between Arborea and Ethereal would be much closer.

    (23 base + 10/2) * 1.5 = 42 bonus sneak attack damage - equivalent to a 126 hide under current Ethereal

    Using half epic skill ranks gives a nice round number and it's the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's not about builds with Eth versus builds without Eth, it's that Eth continues to scale upwards and the other feats do not.
    With the current change it will still continue to scale though, right? Just at a slower pace?

    Why not simply include a maximum amount a character can gain? (IE: "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have up to a maximum of x Sneak Attack damage")


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    With the current change it will still continue to scale though, right? Just at a slower pace?
    No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.
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  16. #16
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    Let's take all the math out of it for a moment. The main reason scion of the ethereal plane is good is that it gives people a reason to go against the meta. Currently non spell casters mostly use arborea and a small group use eth. Build diversity is good please continue to give us reason to explore that further.

    My suggestion would be to add part of the tier 6 from shadow dancer to this feat granting the user the ability to make thing immune to sneak attack vulnerable to sneak attack.

    If they have scion of the ethereal plane and t6 from shadow dancer maybe further increase their vulnerability to physical damage than just the 5% from shadowdancer.


    If you are going to adjust legendary feats you should be buffing earth, air, water, or feywild. And to a lesser extent fire so maybe a non caster would think of taking it but its ok if you don't.

    A simple suggestion would be for all the elemental scions to allow you to break elemental immunity for that element. Water should get a +20 mrr cap increase added to it.

    If there is a scion of poison it could work like the t4 from vile chemist.

    Let their damage scale off melee or ranged power if it would give the player more damage than using their current spell power. It would need to be adjusted to be some percentage greater than 100% scaling to at least be competitive.

    Scion of the astral plane could get passive Ki regen added to it as well.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.
    So the Epic Skills Feat doesn't count?

    (Or the skill feat... stealthy I think it is?)
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.
    I mean, this "legendary feat" is now gutted. It got the nuclear nerf in U45. It happens, we grab another feat and move on. Aborea is now more attractive and helps offset the IPS nerf for range at least.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    snip
    I have been telling this to people for awhile now, they should do a gradual reduction in sources of RP/MP. Its lead to so much bloat and unbalance. Epic levels should give zero and everything else should be dropped down to sane. Just cut all rp/mp bonuses by 1/3 to 1/2 of current. This would sure create mass panic on the forums but i think in the end would be better for a more balanced game.

  20. #20
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    My first char was/is a Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5. Now 30, never TRed or ERed.

    Scorned as inferior for almost 14 years.

    It never ceases to amaze me at how many ways you guys have nerfed him over the years.

    Now your even nerfing his Camouflage spell.....
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