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  1. #41
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    iirc D&D effects that let people interact with the ethereal plane generally render them partially intangible rather than just a little harder to see, so some incorporeality miss chance might fit a little better - 10% which stacks with other sources could be a good one? Yeah it could get pretty high for wraiths but you only get one scion & an undead might want shadowfell anyway, so it'd make for a pretty meaningful choice regardless.

    another idea could be to have a re-skinned but functionally identical version of the xoriat madness delerium effect (short-term displacement guard)
    I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was, now what's it is weird and scary to me.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    Prepare for math.

    Scenario:
    * DEX-based 20 Rogue Assassin in Legendary Dreadnought.
    * At level cap, weapon dmg = 188.37 base avg dmg in reaper. [Assumes +4 DEX from Completionist and racial past lives, and 41 reaper AP spent in Dread Adversary.]
    * SA dmg = 131 (35 Rogue levels + 14 Assassin enhancements + 14 Assassin capstone + 10.5 Improved SA feat + 26 Deception + 11 Insightful Deception + 7 Martial Hymn + 3 Rogue PLs + 10.5 Ethereal)
    * Crit Dmg = 45 (21 Seeker, 10 Insightful Seeker, 6 LD Critical Damage, 2 Purge the Wicked twist, 6 Guild Ship)
    * Dagger Crit Profile: 15-18/x4, 19-20/x6 (Improved Critical, Letahlity, Knife Specialization, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical)
    * Melee Power: 235 with Ethereal

    Damage Calculation Model: Assume hit on a 4, graze/miss on a 3 against a high AC red/purple named boss:

    Roll of 4-14 (188.37 * 3.35 melee power) = 631.0395 avg base dmg per hit
    Roll of 15-20:
    (4 [crit roll of 15-18] * 188.37 * 3.35 melee power * 4 crit multiplier) +
    (2 [crit roll of 19-20] * 188.37 * 3.35 melee power * 6 crit multiplier) +
    (4 [crit roll of 15-18] * 45 crit dmg * 3.35 melee power * 4 crit multiplier) +
    (2 [crit roll of 19-20] * 45 crit dmg * 3.35 melee power * 6 crit multiplier) = 3648.351 avg base dmg per crit hit

    Sneak attack dmg: 131 * 3.35 melee power * 1.5 SA scaling = 656.31 avg SA dmg

    Normalizing dmg on a roll of 4-20: 1695.972 base dmg + 656.31 avg SA dmg = 2352 dmg per hit

    Without cluttering up this reply any more than needed, plugging in the above calculations with Preview 2 Ethereal the avg dmg per hit is 2437.

    TLDR: Your proposal is even more of a nerf than Preview 2. The ancillary bonuses from Ethereal aren't the primary reason people chose Ethereal -- it was the SA dmg.
    Kobeyashi | Ying

  3. #43
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    Legendary Feats should be a competitive option (so different builds use different ones, or you can choose to specialize your build).

    As such, that draft offers utility (Ghost Touch, skills, etc) but not a ton more. I think you'd need to bump the SA damage a bit to be competitive with Arborea, but even that I'm hesitant to do given 20 MP will scale harder than a flat SA number.

    Could it potentially have a stacking Incorporeality bonus? There's a few of those around so the coding is probably in place. I don't know if that's a viable option, but it seems a lot more thematic and balanced than many of the other solutions I've seen. I ask for a stacking bonus because that helps out those who don't have itemized Incorporeality, while also not penalizing those who do (and it presents some interesting options for like a Wraith Form PM, or a Ranger Tempest).

    I'd assume that would include Ghost Touch, but if you swapped 10% Incorp stacking in for Blurry I'd call it an excellent option; 5% might need other balancing (or maybe my numbers are too high?).
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  4. #44
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Prepare for math. snippy snip snip

    TLDR: Your proposal is even more of a nerf than Preview 2. The ancillary bonuses from Ethereal aren't the primary reason people chose Ethereal -- it was the SA dmg.
    Rad, thanks. I'm well aware that the ancillary stuff is just fluff to the number-crunchers, the additional Ghost Touch wasn't meant as part of the tradeoff from the scaling SA damage. I'm not considering it as part of a numbers balance, just as a fun bonus I can easily slide on in for convenience.

    What about 6d6 Sneak Dice? I'm not trying to match where Ethereal was, I'm trying to match where Arborea is. Hmm lemme crunch those numbers, gimme a hot second

    Looks like 2407 with 6d6... hmmm

    I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 02-03-2020 at 04:00 PM.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  5. #45
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    Kind of boring. But I guess that's pretty par for the course with all the epic/destiny/scion feats. The good ones are all boring (+ X to Y) and the interesting ones are all bad. Except maybe frog.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Kind of boring. But I guess that's pretty par for the course with all the epic/destiny/scion feats. The good ones are all boring (+ X to Y) and the interesting ones are all bad. Except maybe frog.
    I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?
    Prior to this thread, I had calculated out avg dmg per hit for four Assassin setups:

    DEX Arborea: 2420
    DEX Ethereal: 2437
    INT Arborea: 2468
    INT Ethereal: 2483

    That's using the Ethereal 34.5 SA from the U45 Preview.
    Kobeyashi | Ying

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Rad, thanks. I'm well aware that the ancillary stuff is just fluff to the number-crunchers, the additional Ghost Touch wasn't meant as part of the tradeoff from the scaling SA damage, just as a bonus. I'm not considering it as part of a tradeoff, just as a fun bonus I can easily slide on in for convenience.

    What about 6d6 Sneak Dice? I'm not trying to match where Ethereal was, I'm trying to match where Arborea is. Hmm lemme crunch those numbers, gimme a hot second

    Looks like 2407 with 6d6... hmmm

    I feel like 6d6 and 5 mp matches Arborea pretty well. Thoughts?
    My melees run scion of the plane of earth and a corrosion 138 augment. That's 2d20, times 5 with 400 spell power. 105 average damage.

    The 20 prr is what sells it. Maybe add a cool defensive buff to ethereal plane?

    How about "while on epic defensive fighting stance, you gain 5% Dodge that bypasses the hard cap"?
    Kmnh * Kmn * Kmm * Knn * Knm

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Prior to this thread, I had calculated out avg dmg per hit for four Assassin setups:

    DEX Arborea: 2420
    DEX Ethereal: 2437
    INT Arborea: 2468
    INT Ethereal: 2483

    That's using the Ethereal 34.5 SA from the U45 Preview.
    Good stuff. I'm going with 6d6 sneak dice for now (only 0.5% behind Dex Arborea which seems like about as close as I can get it without adding, like, 1 extra sneak attack damage), thanks for the writeup. I really appreciate you taking the time to math this out.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Good stuff. I'm going with 6d6 sneak dice for now (only 0.5% behind Dex Arborea which seems like about as close as I can get it without adding, like, 1 extra sneak attack damage), thanks for the writeup. I really appreciate you taking the time to math this out.
    Lynn you are genuinely the most outgoing Dev I have ever seen in 13+ years of MMO gaming online. Thank you

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blah2 View Post
    Lynn you are genuinely the most outgoing Dev I have ever seen in 13+ years of MMO gaming online. Thank you
    Comments like this really genuinely make my day, thank you :)
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  12. #52

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    Ghostly instead of Ghost Touch would be more desirable, since Ghostly sources are quite limited while Ghost Touch is quite common.
    Kobeyashi | Ying

  13. #53
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Scaling damage based on a skill is problematic from the perspective of balance, but I want "skill scaling" damage to come back in some form. I'll make my case...

    "Skill scaling" is thematic and restrictive. Gearing hide provides a real trade-off between classes, builds, and stats. Unique hide bonuses are a fun party buff, that felt meaningful. It makes us look at existing gear with stats and say---how does this work out?

    That's precisely what makes the old feat fun---and gearing fun. When new systems integrate old systems in creative ways, the game feels deeper. Path of Exile "unique items" are like this. Most POE uniques aren't powerful by themselves---but they are build defining, and allow you to do something goofy.

    I would rather we preserve the old scaling and nerf it heavily---while changing Arborea to scale with a STR skill. I think the other scion feats could scale stronger with their respective spell powers---as well as their corollaries in sentient sets. Perhaps they could even provide penalties to melee/ranged power, inorder to compensate for their flavor and strength working synergistically. I know this sounds like a puzzle... ...but its a flavorful puzzle, and we like flavorful puzzles.
    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 02-03-2020 at 05:02 PM.
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
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  14. #54
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?
    Spirit blades is a pretty cool spell, but extremely slow to cast. If that cast time were reduced, it might be a more viable option for a dps caster. The damage felt fine when I found myself using it, but I didn't have much to compare it to.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

    Feature wishlist: colour-coded HP bars; red/blue teams in raids; rez-timer in party menu; equip-able halflings

  15. #55
    Community Member Rauven's Avatar
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    So the feat would become:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +6d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    I can deal with that. I really appreciate you taking another look at this and taking player feedback into consideration. I have to say, though, Lesser Displacement instead of Blurry would be so sweet.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rauven View Post
    I have to say, though, Lesser Displacement instead of Blurry would be so sweet.
    Ugh, my one weakness, polite feedback! I suppose I'll tone it up to Lesser Displacement - if you insist :P
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Ugh, my one weakness, polite feedback! I suppose I'll tone it up to Lesser Displacement - if you insist :P
    Your one weakness? oh come on, everyone has at least two!

  18. #58
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    Is it double secret probabtion stacking blur? Like, I have blur, and this Legendary feat makes it so the mobs have been drinking, so I got blur again? Just go ahead and make it "You have permanent Displacement 50%"


  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I feel that. What interesting ED feat needs help the most, in your opinion?
    Great Ability feels really lame, burning a feat for +1 to a stat (especially when we have triple digit stats as the new norm) which doesn't even give a bonus if you're on an odd number, I feel like even if it was +2 to a stat it would rarely ever be picked except by DC casters.

    Epic mage armor is basically never picked because it's quickly made redundant by basically any non-robe armor in epics, only cloth armor has a bonus low enough to get any benefit from Epic mage armor (legendary Barovian noble robes has +15, Disciple of the Dawn has +19 and outfit of the celestial guardian has +20) and even if you're a robes wearer, are you going to burn an epic feat on a couple of AC?

    Post-nerf Hellball is just straight up worse than Meteor Swarm, 9th level spell is better than a epic feat that requires level 28?

    When the mobs save fails it takes fire, electric, acid, and sonic damage, when it succeeds the save the enemy takes half fire, electric, acid, sonic, and cold damage (still less damage total on the save but not half because the cold hit is not present when they fail the save)

    For starters how about adding the cold damage even when they fail the save, an extra 3d20 +15 as a reward for having good DCs would be a nice start. also maybe the projectile could move like 20% faster, if not just make it into a fireball style projectile, on live it's this tiny little glitter that moves *extremely slow*.

  20. #60
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Prior to this thread, I had calculated out avg dmg per hit for four Assassin setups:

    DEX Arborea: 2420
    DEX Ethereal: 2437
    INT Arborea: 2468
    INT Ethereal: 2483

    That's using the Ethereal 34.5 SA from the U45 Preview.
    I'm dumb and I'd love to see the math. I think you're right, for sure! But I want to see/have a reference of how we got these numbers.


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