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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    My first char was/is a Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5. Now 30, never TRed or ERed.

    Scorned as inferior for almost 14 years.

    It never ceases to amaze me at how many ways you guys have nerfed him over the years.

    Now your even nerfing his Camouflage spell.....
    Maybe they can rework camouflage to add dodge/dodge cap ala the fancy scaling on some of the new pally spells.

    I would love for longstrider mass to be classed the same type of movement speed as the boosts given to bards, druids, monks, rogues, and warlocks. You can lower it to 10% so it doesn't outclass those other classes just make it more than a waste of space. Would go a long ways towards giving them an actual useful mass buff for groups. Help them buff slower classes to keep up with all the alchemists soon to be zooming all over the place.

  2. #22
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsotate View Post
    Good question. Even more so, since Blur is available at level 3 (Bracers of Wind).
    My hubby hates the challenges so I often forget what exists from there. Thank you for reminding me. So yes a 30th level feat has a level 3 effect. Shrug worthy to say the least.
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  3. #23
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....
    Honestly I wish more than one scion gave the spell crit dmg but I'd also be fine with it being lowered. Its weird that its only for fire, like Elec Sorc or Cold Sorc don't want and need crit too? What about a cleric that chooses an elemental domain? What about druid that specializes in the Winter Season?
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  4. #24
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Honestly I wish more than one scion gave the spell crit dmg but I'd also be fine with it being lowered. Its weird that its only for fire, like Elec Sorc or Cold Sorc don't want and need crit too? What about a cleric that chooses an elemental domain? What about druid that specializes in the Winter Season?
    Scion of fire is hardly only for fire spec casters. Sure the on hit fire portion is fire only but the only thing it gives a fire caster over anything other element is 10 spell power.

  5. #25
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    Scion of fire is hardly only for fire spec casters. Sure the on hit fire portion is fire only but the only thing it gives a fire caster over anything other element is 10 spell power.
    That's... not what she was saying. She's saying that (most) all dps casters take Scion of Fire, regardless of their element focus, because Scion of Fire is the only source of spell crit damage from the scion feats. She's saying it's odd that Scion of Cold doesn't do more for cold damage specced casters, etc. It would make more sense for lightning specced to take Scion of Air for more lightning power, but as it stands right now, any caster doing damage takes Scion of Fire because it's the only one with (universal) spell crit on it.

  6. #26
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vryxnr View Post
    That's... not what she was saying. She's saying that (most) all dps casters take Scion of Fire, regardless of their element focus, because Scion of Fire is the only source of spell crit damage from the scion feats. She's saying it's odd that Scion of Cold doesn't do more for cold damage specced casters, etc. It would make more sense for lightning specced to take Scion of Air for more lightning power, but as it stands right now, any caster doing damage takes Scion of Fire because it's the only one with (universal) spell crit on it.
    On the nose.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    No, Ranks are something placed during level-up and are capped at 23.
    Good to know!

    I thought feats and skill tomes affected rank but I do see they count as modifiers to the final skill number without affecting rank.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  8. #28
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    Default +5 hide refund

    I am not one for handouts, but i honestly bought a +5 hide tome specifically to increase my hide score so i coulf do more damage from ethereal plane. Since it is pointless to by a hide tome with this change, i think we should get a refund as you are changing something that used to rely on points instead of ranks. Also, while i am at it, i spent x number of legendary mats to get 22 hide.

    I know nothing will be done, since everyone is getting the shaft, but it would be a nice goodwill gesture by SSG to:

    A. Refund hide tome purchases
    B. Provide a free fred token to change out ethereal plane
    C. Allow us to overwrite crafted item slots to remove useless abilities (hide 22)

    Pretty please!
    Nico

  9. #29
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thanks for the analysis! I'm very interested in ideas to help the new Scion of the Ethereal Plane scale into epics better. If you've got a cool suggestion, let me know! That being said, abilities that scale off of skills have the potential to be increasingly viable as the game progresses, which means that Scion was beginning to eclipse other options - and this problem would only get worse with time. Ideally the Scion feats are equally usable and equally viable, and the key to that is avoiding certain scaling functions that have the potential to increase in effectiveness in an effort to prevent constant redesigning.
    I mentioned earlier in a previous post to change "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have" to "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 4 points of Hide you have" as an example. This could also be changed from the current 33% of Hide to any other whether is 25% or 30% etc instead of the flat amount. In future would be easier to re-balance as only a percentage that would have to be adjusted instead of entirely how the feat works.

    Currently I think the max Hide items are 22 comp, 11 insight, 6 quality (LGS) and 11 exception (Ethereal Gaze Raid item). That's two items required while I already don't consider Ethereal Gaze an item I would use with Scion of the Ethereal Plane taken.

    The option for more Hide/Dex skill items with higher bonuses will most probably be released at some point, but so will Deadly/Seeker and Insightful/Quality versions etc and other effects that benefit from the melee power from Scion of Arborea. Deathdefy in an earlier post pointed most of these out.



    Off topic Hiding in Plane Sight from Shadowdancer is broken and not giving any bonuses to hide and move silent while standing still in sneak stance. I would think the same is true for the "enemies don't gain Spot bonuses until they get much closer to you, and the bonuses are smaller. " is also bugged.

    Would it be possible to reduce cooldown for Shadow Training II even at expenses of Sneak Attack bonus as it will no longer give barbarian sprint speed while sneaking?
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 01-20-2020 at 12:06 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Why does Scion of the Ethereal give blur (available at lv4 on item) and not lesser displacement (available as early as lvl 10)? Probably not necessary with end game equipment but any reason it doesn't give Ghostly?
    I'm quoting Aelonwy for no particular reason other than Blurry was mentioned. I also would like to see Lesser Displacement as part of the Scion. But what I very much want to make sure does not happen is that we lose a concealment bonus from this Scion in a corrupt-a-wish fashion, such as Blurry being replaced with Ghostly. It absolutely should either retain Blurry or improve to Lesser D. One of those must remain. This Scion is very valuable to me in freeing up slots in the endgame gear tetris. I (and surely many others) have gear sets specifically designed around the fact that we will be running in Scion of Ethereal and do not have Blurry or Lesser D slotted. These gearsets would be blown up if a concealment bonus is removed entirely from the Scion. My melee rogue is pummeled to death often enough already, he doesn't need a concealment bonus nerf.

    I know it is unlikely that this change (removing Blurry/Lesser D) would happen, but it would be so devastating to me if it did that I felt the need to speak my mind. Thanks for listening.
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  11. #31
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    I'm quoting Aelonwy for no particular reason other than Blurry was mentioned. I also would like to see Lesser Displacement as part of the Scion. But what I very much want to make sure does not happen is that we lose a concealment bonus from this Scion in a corrupt-a-wish fashion, such as Blurry being replaced with Ghostly. It absolutely should either retain Blurry or improve to Lesser D. One of those must remain. This Scion is very valuable to me in freeing up slots in the endgame gear tetris. I (and surely many others) have gear sets specifically designed around the fact that we will be running in Scion of Ethereal and do not have Blurry or Lesser D slotted. These gearsets would be blown up if a concealment bonus is removed entirely from the Scion. My melee rogue is pummeled to death often enough already, he doesn't need a concealment bonus nerf.

    I know it is unlikely that this change (removing Blurry/Lesser D) would happen, but it would be so devastating to me if it did that I felt the need to speak my mind. Thanks for listening.
    I'm sorry, I was unclear, I meant Ghostly in addition to Blurry or Lesser Displacement not in place of. Its named Scion of the Ethereal so I was trying to brainstorm effects that could give it additional oomph since the snk atk dmg is basically being capped despite other scion feats still scaling with various effects such as Scion of Fire's Spell Crit will continue to improve the more spell power you manage to get. But you're most likely correct to voice displeasure with replacement, corrupt-a-wish is a real thing here.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I'm sorry, I was unclear, I meant Ghostly in addition to Blurry or Lesser Displacement not in place of. Its named Scion of the Ethereal so I was trying to brainstorm effects that could give it additional oomph since the snk atk dmg is basically being capped despite other scion feats still scaling with various effects such as Scion of Fire's Spell Crit will continue to improve the more spell power you manage to get. But you're most likely correct to voice displeasure with replacement, corrupt-a-wish is a real thing here.
    You're fine and no need for an apology. I knew exactly what you meant. But I see that you understand my fear over the incorrect corrupt-a-wish interpretation that COULD happen here. My post was meant for SSG. I think that changing the Scion to Lesser D is actually a really good idea, especially in light of the proposed hard cap on sneak attack damage at 34.

    I also wanted to say that the 1.5x cap is too low. I'm just a first life rogue and I easily hit 120 Hide at cap (+40 sneak damage). A cap of at least 1.75*ranks or 2*ranks (+40 , +47 SA damage) seems entirely reasonable and allows us squishy sneak types to retain some of the vital DPS boost that the Scion provides. Do melee rogues really need a DPS nerf? I die often enough as it is.
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 01-23-2020 at 05:13 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hmmmm, I assume most players will take Fire for the probably too high universal Spell Crit Damage if they're going caster, and/or whatever element matches their primary focus. For Thrower/melee it's probably either Ethereal or Arborea. You're right that there's no Poison one, hmmmm....
    ::throws idea into hat::

    Scion of the Plane of Carceri
    +4 to the DCs of Transmutation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
    Immunity to poison and diseases (includes mummy rot).
    +10 Poison spell power, +30 Universal Spell Power
    Add 2d20 poison damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

    Carceri=Forgotten Realms. Talona, called the Lady of Poison, Mistress of Disease, and Mother of All Plagues, was the goddess of poison and disease.
    Abyss=Eberron-ish. Transmutation could represent the toxicity of the ever changing aspects of the planar aspects.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    212/190 = 11.6% decrease in SA.
    The decrease would be even less, actually. The value you should be about 10.38%. There's 2 ways to get this value;

    1) 212-190 = 22 (this is the difference between the old value and the new)
    22/212 ~ 0.10377
    0.10377 x 100 = 10.377%
    Round to nearest hundredth (or tenth if you'd prefer) gives you 10.38%
    We have the difference over the initial value because we want to see the amount over change relative to the initial value, not the new one.

    2) 190/212 ~ 0.89622
    |0.89622 - 1| = 0.10377; -0.10377 if you remove the absolute value sign to express integers
    0.10377 x 100 = 10.377%
    Round like before
    In this case you have the new value over the initial value because you want to describe the change as a ratio that's relative to the old value. Then you subtract 1 from it (one here being = to 100%, so you could do this after the multiplication as long as you are subtract 100 from it afterwards). Absolute value sign because we're just referencing change in general, but if we allow for negative integers, then the change would be -10.38%, i.e. 10.38% decrease.

    All changes should always be made relative to the initial value.

  15. #35
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    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  16. #36
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    Default Scion of the Ethereal Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    Seems a bit meh for a Legendary Feat.
    Maybe change Blur to Lesser Displacement and add Deception or Improved Deception instead of the Invis Guard?
    ------------------------------------------------
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    of Zerg

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    A larger nerf than the current one. Even if you had 17 sneak dice (before the additional) and rolled max on all of them it would be 30.8 damage vs the 40.25 the current change is.

    Math here:

    17×6= (102 + 30 for static sneak damage) × .05 (melee power increase) × 1.5 (sneak melee power multiplyer) = 11.4 + 18×1.075 (for the added mp) = 30.75 So even in the best case scenario you need to make up 10 damage with the 5 extra mp which would require a base damage of 200 for your best case scenario which is doable.

    A more reasonable way to go is to look at the averages so redoing the math you get:

    (59.5 + 30) × .075 + 10.5 × 1.075 = 18 damage vs 40.25 which requires a whopping 445 base damage to break even vs the original nerf.

  18. #38
    Community Member Draxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick draft:

    Scion of the Ethereal Plane
    You are considered Blurry and you have Ghost Touch
    +3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 Melee and Ranged Power
    +4 to all Skills
    Permanent Invis Guard, as per the item effect

    Thoughts?
    It's pretty easy to slot a Blurry or Lesser Displacement effect by 30th level. I guess it's useful for people who can't. But a 5% stacking concealment would be more universally useful.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxis View Post
    It's pretty easy to slot a Blurry or Lesser Displacement effect by 30th level. I guess it's useful for people who can't. But a 5% stacking concealment would be more universally useful.
    Probably true. I'm trying to keep as much of the original feat in place as possible.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    I mentioned earlier in a previous post to change "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have" to "+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 4 points of Hide you have" as an example. This could also be changed from the current 33% of Hide to any other whether is 25% or 30% etc instead of the flat amount. In future would be easier to re-balance as only a percentage that would have to be adjusted instead of entirely how the feat works.

    Currently I think the max Hide items are 22 comp, 11 insight, 6 quality (LGS) and 11 exception (Ethereal Gaze Raid item). That's two items required while I already don't consider Ethereal Gaze an item I would use with Scion of the Ethereal Plane taken.

    The option for more Hide/Dex skill items with higher bonuses will most probably be released at some point, but so will Deadly/Seeker and Insightful/Quality versions etc and other effects that benefit from the melee power from Scion of Arborea. Deathdefy in an earlier post pointed most of these out.


    And when power creep allows to get a hide over 200 your proposal puts the developers in the same predicament. thats what Lynnabel is saying that ethereal scaling with a skill amount rather than a fixed number (23 ranks) is causing the problem.

    Lynnabel just cap the sneak attack damage at a number you see balanced/reasonable (I'd like atleast 50 and make sure it is noticeably more than the 35 from the ranks method) and then keep it based on the skill value not ranks. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

    QED

    Unless there is some reason 50 SA damage is too much please tell me. If it is because ranger/rogue/ inquisitives are a game balance issue then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove SA damage from duel wielding xbow (or atleast make reduced by half or something) users. the more inquisitive nerfs the better

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