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  1. #1
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    Default Hold Buffs - Keeping new players viable

    I flatter myself to think that I'm the "type" of new player the game is trying to attract. I play a minimum of 3 hours a day (usually more), cashed up enough to keep the wheels of progress rolling, study hard, read the forums, watch live feeds etc, etc. My brother and fellow guild founder have been around for 13 years, play daily and have patiently mentored me for the last 9 months. My main is now 2nd life L27 (yup, inquisitor based) and I'm trying to keep up with their main characters who have been around the block 66 times! I do not want, nor expect them to lower their game enjoyment to my actual level of play, I work hard, do my homework, try not to be a burden and accept raises gratefully. The rest of the group doesn't need to use the hold buffs, they have past lives, KNOWLEDGE, resources, gear, *dribbling* the list goes on. I buff in the basement . every . single . time....... Along with bringing high end spell point and heal potions (and cakes when I can) hold buffs have enabled me to be less of a burden. Are the basement buffs "balanced" for low characters? Hell no! Are they helping new players stay in the game? Yes!!!!!

  2. #2
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    I agree...I dont think they're actually a problem that needs to be solved.

    They're OP, but only for levels where its OK to be OP - lower levels where gameplay is naturally less fun because your build is still missing fundamental elements.

    Plus with how many PLs most players are looking at, a little kickstart is a welcome thing when you start a new life. Slowing down progress in those early levels will hinder players trying to climb the power curve, and we should be accelerating not decelerating that process.

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    I find this sort of thing amusing because my guild is largely made up of new or casual players--you know, the people everyone claims RELY on cargo hold buffs? We don't have ANY cargo hold buffs on our ship. Why? Because I consider them a nuisance and don't put them down there myself.

    Periodically someone joins the guild, goes down there, complains that there aren't any buffs, and I promote them to officer so they can place the buffs themselves, saying "I don't care if they're down there. I will not place the buffs. If you want them, take charge of them."

    One week later, we're back to having no cargo hold buffs again.

    This has happened six times so far.

    Come join my guild. Within a week you won't miss them and you'll wonder why you ever bothered with the silly things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I find this sort of thing amusing because my guild is largely made up of new or casual players--you know, the people everyone claims RELY on cargo hold buffs? We don't have ANY cargo hold buffs on our ship. Why? Because I consider them a nuisance and don't put them down there myself.

    Periodically someone joins the guild, goes down there, complains that there aren't any buffs, and I promote them to officer so they can place the buffs themselves, saying "I don't care if they're down there. I will not place the buffs. If you want them, take charge of them."

    One week later, we're back to having no cargo hold buffs again.

    This has happened six times so far.

    Come join my guild. Within a week you won't miss them and you'll wonder why you ever bothered with the silly things.
    Lol I keep trying to top them up, but my baby brother keeps them in tickety boo, up to date shape (dead/sad sisters do not a happy guild make.......who knew!) We are a tiny guild with three regular players on three different continents, with other family members dropping in. If the damn certificates stacked or at least weren't bound to character I could work on a stockpile strategy for when our mains are too low for +30 by other means.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I find this sort of thing amusing because my guild is largely made up of new or casual players--you know, the people everyone claims RELY on cargo hold buffs? We don't have ANY cargo hold buffs on our ship. Why? Because I consider them a nuisance and don't put them down there myself.

    Periodically someone joins the guild, goes down there, complains that there aren't any buffs, and I promote them to officer so they can place the buffs themselves, saying "I don't care if they're down there. I will not place the buffs. If you want them, take charge of them."

    One week later, we're back to having no cargo hold buffs again.

    This has happened six times so far.

    Come join my guild. Within a week you won't miss them and you'll wonder why you ever bothered with the silly things.
    Let me guess, your airship has all of the amenities from the new system available?

    Yes, on a maxed out airship the hold buffs are really borderline. However, on a smaller ship that can be up to half the buffs you have available.

    New players that come in as a group often want to start their own family / casual guild. Right now it does not take long at all to get a lot of functionality out of a new guild, and a large part of the reason for it is the cargo hold buffs. They let you have the buffs you decided are most important last a long time (from the new system), and fill out that selection with additional buffs that are less convenient (from the old system). The net result is that you have a strong incentive to level your guild up and get better versions of all the buffs, without leaving a small guild so completely gimped out that there's no point in starting one.

    The current system is good for all guilds, small or large, new or old. Stripping all of the cargo hold buffs guts the functionality of the system for small guilds. Any airship that doesn't have at least two floors for different amenities is completely gimped.

    Now if they want to add an extra floor for amenities to the smaller airships, I will get 100% behind this change. But I don't think that will be happening.
    Last edited by yfernbottom; 01-17-2020 at 12:43 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tria View Post
    I flatter myself to think that I'm the "type" of new player the game is trying to attract. I play a minimum of 3 hours a day (usually more), cashed up enough to keep the wheels of progress rolling, study hard, read the forums, watch live feeds etc, etc. My brother and fellow guild founder have been around for 13 years, play daily and have patiently mentored me for the last 9 months. My main is now 2nd life L27 (yup, inquisitor based) and I'm trying to keep up with their main characters who have been around the block 66 times! I do not want, nor expect them to lower their game enjoyment to my actual level of play, I work hard, do my homework, try not to be a burden and accept raises gratefully. The rest of the group doesn't need to use the hold buffs, they have past lives, KNOWLEDGE, resources, gear, *dribbling* the list goes on. I buff in the basement . every . single . time....... Along with bringing high end spell point and heal potions (and cakes when I can) hold buffs have enabled me to be less of a burden. Are the basement buffs "balanced" for low characters? Hell no! Are they helping new players stay in the game? Yes!!!!!
    Get lost, newb.

    I'm totally joking. Welcome. It sounds like you are that "type" of new player I'd like to see in the game, anyway.

    Personally I don't care that much if they remove the cargo buffs or not. I do think at the lower levels they tend to remove some of the excitement and just allow people to zerg content faster. I can appreciate that people don't like to have things taken away though, and the reasoning/timing for it really struck a chord with a lot of folks.

    If you haven't done this before, here's something fun (and super useful) to try. Go into some quests solo on a low difficulty setting - normal, casual, whatever - a setting where you can take quite a few hits without turning into a soulstone. Go in over level if you want.

    Practice NOT getting hit by things, just by moving. Watch for the animations that tell you when that kobold shaman is about to sling a lightning bolt at you, and practice moving out of the way at that moment so you don't get hit by it. I went through several lives before I realized just how effectively you can do this.

    Also practice identifying what is the biggest threat in the room (maybe that kobold shaman as opposed to the kobold fighter) and taking it out first. If you die trying just release and go do it again until you succeed. It's not 100% foolproof. Sometimes, especially on high difficulty settings you can just get flat outnumbered and out-gunned. But this will help you a lot to see how you can succeed without the extra buffs. And maybe see some things that your past-life-havin' guildies are doing instinctively and just forgot to tell you about because it's such second nature to them they no longer realize they do it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I agree...I dont think they're actually a problem that needs to be solved.

    They're OP, but only for levels where its OK to be OP - lower levels where gameplay is naturally less fun because your build is still missing fundamental elements.

    Plus with how many PLs most players are looking at, a little kickstart is a welcome thing when you start a new life.
    Slowing down progress in those early levels will hinder players trying to climb the power curve, and we should be accelerating not decelerating that process.
    bold: This is a vet point of view. None of what you stated here is an issue for a new player.

    unbolded: There are better ways to accelerate catch-up, way more effective ways that don't sacrifice gameplay.

  8. #8
    Community Member Clemeit's Avatar
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    1) They're great for getting you through the first few levels; 2) after that their relative power tapers off and they aren't anything special.

    #1 Is why they're getting removed from the game thanks to HCL.

    #2 Is why they should be left alone.

    Also,
    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Come join my guild. Within a week you won't miss them and you'll wonder why you ever bothered with the silly things.
    With this logic, I guess they don't make a whole lot of difference anyways, which means they should just be left alone.
    Last edited by Clemeit; 01-17-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    bold: This is a vet point of view. None of what you stated here is an issue for a new player.

    unbolded: There are better ways to accelerate catch-up, way more effective ways that don't sacrifice gameplay.
    No its not. New players are just as incomplete at L3 or L5 as a vet is. You still benefit from the hold buffs letting you play a little more aggressively even if you havent acquired a basic kit of defense/healing tools yet.

    And how is it vet-ism to say new players deserve faster progression?

    I dont think its sacrificing gameplay either. Low levels arent challenging because you arent playing well - they're challenging because you often dont have the things you need yet to answer those challenges, the things that your build will make use of after you pick up your T4s or get a second level in your multiclass, etc. Having an extra safety net like 30 Elemental Resists doesnt prevent gameplay, it means you actually CAN play your build without having to be totally overcautious and hesitant.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Practice NOT getting hit by things, just by moving. Watch for the animations that tell you when that kobold shaman is about to sling a lightning bolt at you, and practice moving out of the way at that moment so you don't get hit by it. I went through several lives before I realized just how effectively you can do this.

    Also practice identifying what is the biggest threat in the room (maybe that kobold shaman as opposed to the kobold fighter) and taking it out first. If you die trying just release and go do it again until you succeed. It's not 100% foolproof. Sometimes, especially on high difficulty settings you can just get flat outnumbered and out-gunned. But this will help you a lot to see how you can succeed without the extra buffs. And maybe see some things that your past-life-havin' guildies are doing instinctively and just forgot to tell you about because it's such second nature to them they no longer realize they do it.
    Lol Thanks relic! Apriciate it. All sound advice. I’m slowly getting there, R1 and baby raids at the moment but the boys are still being kind. I know they do sneaky reaper level stupid when I’m not around. I spent the first 8 levels doing exactly what you have suggested. Build didn’t help too much I admit, I quote “ I want to be a wizard, it looks pretty” shortly followed by “I like pointy ears” discovered I wasn’t as badass as I thought, just squishy. I dabbled with sorc and arti alts, decided I could survive better with ranged weapons and became addicted to chain lighting too. Lol learned to run backwards shooting. Had fun staying alive. Took IPS. Learned to stand still, kill more, die more. Think I can go back to running backwards in the new update (lamannia was a huge learning trip) Living, learning, dieing, learning, visiting Fred, learning but always having fun, except when trying to find something in the TR cache then I mutter and curse like a sailor.

  11. #11
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Come join my guild. Within a week you won't miss them and you'll wonder why you ever bothered with the silly things.
    My guild has a lot of new players, and a few of our officers make sure the buffs are always up. Personally I use them like 1-2x right after TRing to level 1, and that's it for me (Electric Resist for kobold shamans mostly); however, I know quite a few players (mostly newer) who use them religiously

    Electric Resist makes the Harbor much more fun. I don't care about the rest of the hold buffs 98% of the time, but that one is pretty major for reducing oneshots earlygame.
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    1) They're great for getting you through the first few levels; 2) after that their relative power tapers off and they aren't anything special.

    #1 Is why they're getting removed from the game thanks to HCL.

    #2 Is why they should be left alone.

    Also,


    With this logic, I guess they don't make a whole lot of difference anyways, which means they should just be left alone.
    Has everyone on the forums lost the ability to read? Or is everyone just getting secondhand info and taking it as gospel?

    I know I know, everyone is just losing their minds on this HCL thing, but sometimes a bug is just a bug and nothing to read into.
    However even with this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I want to reiterate that the removal of those amenities is a bug that has since been corrected, and furthermore, the feathers/horseshoes passing flag has been corrected for this very update. I again apologize for dropping the ball on making sure that landed into a patch before now.
    I would say wait and see if it actually happens on live (or hell, even next Lam Preview)


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Has everyone on the forums lost the ability to read? Or is everyone just getting secondhand info and taking it as gospel?

    I know I know, everyone is just losing their minds on this HCL thing, but sometimes a bug is just a bug and nothing to read into.
    However even with this post:
    The ammenities that Lyn was referring to that were removed that was a bug, were those related to the auction house, bank, store, and bar. Not resistances. They do intend to remove the resistances. That is not a bug.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amundir View Post
    The ammenities that Lyn was referring to that were removed that was a bug, were those related to the auction house, bank, store, and bar. Not resistances. They do intend to remove the resistances. That is not a bug.
    I hadn't seen a post saying that, but the dev tracker did go off a lot on lam forums. Or did they say it during the dev event?

    Also, resistances are overrated, I haven't used those buffs in years. Currently on a Pure Barb life with no way to cast my own duo'ing R3 with my wife. Probably would have made things a little easier for me XD


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  15. #15
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    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e7#post6283714


    I haven't found the thread again yet. But they stated that most of the cargo hold ammenities should remain, just not the resistances. Then someone posted a screenshot of what the vendor guy offered and it had like one or two items in there, clearly more than just the resistances were gone. Which prompted Lyn to reply that that was a bug and that they would address that.

    EDIT:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...the-nerf/page5


    Page 5 had the screenshot.
    Last edited by Amundir; 01-17-2020 at 04:51 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    *Snip*
    Having an extra safety net like 30 Elemental Resists doesnt prevent gameplay, it means you actually CAN play your build without having to be totally overcautious and hesitant.
    So an "Easy Button", Ok.
    We don't want to have an "Easy Button" removed. We might actually have to play the game at low levels rather then just running to the end for a completion then kill whatever might have been an obstacle.

    Actually I'm thankful I still have the majority of my single element resist clothing and jewelry items that we used to deal
    with elemental damage before the resist shrines even existed in the game. I'll get good use out of my "Resist Acid 20 cloak" again.

    Again, I speak only for myself and only state my own opinions.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Goalt's Avatar
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    Well, it should be common knowledge by now that removing hold buffs is just SSG trying to show players that they paying attention to the game. Exempting Hardcore League (aka the joke to keep addicts thinking the game is alive), I don't believe I've ever seen a single post every since I started playing actually complaining about how O.P. ship buffs are. Why? Because they're not.

    They threw balance out a long time ago when they released Ravenloft. Don't know what you peeps are talking about...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tria View Post
    Lol Thanks relic! Apriciate it. All sound advice. I’m slowly getting there, R1 and baby raids at the moment but the boys are still being kind. I know they do sneaky reaper level stupid when I’m not around. I spent the first 8 levels doing exactly what you have suggested. Build didn’t help too much I admit, I quote “ I want to be a wizard, it looks pretty” shortly followed by “I like pointy ears” discovered I wasn’t as badass as I thought, just squishy. I dabbled with sorc and arti alts, decided I could survive better with ranged weapons and became addicted to chain lighting too. Lol learned to run backwards shooting. Had fun staying alive. Took IPS. Learned to stand still, kill more, die more. Think I can go back to running backwards in the new update (lamannia was a huge learning trip) Living, learning, dieing, learning, visiting Fred, learning but always having fun, except when trying to find something in the TR cache then I mutter and curse like a sailor.
    Ha, Relic - I like that. Definitely better than "geezer." XD

    I'm not a big fan of kiting, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the red bar from going black.

    Here are a few more things to try besides running backward if you haven't experimented with them.

    1. Strafing
    I like to go into my key bindings and overwrite Q and E with strafe right and left. I think they're that important. Try it out and see what you think. You can always change them back. You can strafe left or right and easily side step an incoming spell or projectile. Q or E plus W or S will set you off running diagonally. I'm pretty sure diagonally is the fastest you can run. Q or E plus A or D and you can learn to run circles around things while still facing them.

    2. Tumbling
    It's not just for acrobats. Any class can do this, and if you pump the skill high enough, I'm pretty sure this is the fastest that you can move a short distance. (There's a short delay before you can tumble again so it's not a good way to move a long distance). You'll need to invest some points in it for it to be decent - maybe supplement with a tumble item or augment.

    3. Turn Key Speed
    There is a slider in the settings for this under Key mapping. I like to turn it up a bit.

    You can practice these movement techniques anywhere, even a public area. If you get really good at moving your character, you'll reduce your need for heal pots, rez cakes, and resistance shrines quite a bit. Not being there when whatever nasty thing hits is a great defense you can use on pretty much any build. Just requires a little practice. Don't forget to make sure your run speed is as maxed as possible. Speed item or spell for +30% movement unless you're on a class that has enhancements to make it even faster.

    As for the TR cache... yeah, it's a pain. The best thing you can do is to not let too much get into it, and just find a way to remove it all right after you TR. I don't practice what I'm preaching here, completely but I do my best and keep trying to get better each life. Life is better not trying to use that thing as free storage.
    Last edited by SuperNiCd; 01-17-2020 at 08:16 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I agree...I dont think they're actually a problem that needs to be solved.

    They're OP, but only for levels where its OK to be OP - lower levels where gameplay is naturally less fun because your build is still missing fundamental elements.

    Plus with how many PLs most players are looking at, a little kickstart is a welcome thing when you start a new life. Slowing down progress in those early levels will hinder players trying to climb the power curve, and we should be accelerating not decelerating that process.
    Right... are we really trying to slow the pace at which everyone runs the Depths chain? Is it so we can stare at the elaborate visual excellence of the same sewer pattern in quest after quest just a bit longer and we'll finally get it like a painting at MoMA?

  20. #20
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I find this sort of thing amusing because my guild is largely made up of new or casual players--you know, the people everyone claims RELY on cargo hold buffs? We don't have ANY cargo hold buffs on our ship. Why? Because I consider them a nuisance and don't put them down there myself.

    Periodically someone joins the guild, goes down there, complains that there aren't any buffs, and I promote them to officer so they can place the buffs themselves, saying "I don't care if they're down there. I will not place the buffs. If you want them, take charge of them."

    One week later, we're back to having no cargo hold buffs again.

    This has happened six times so far.

    Come join my guild. Within a week you won't miss them and you'll wonder why you ever bothered with the silly things.
    So they DO want them. You realize they are very expensive for a low level noob to afford. I suspect the players simply move on to a guild that does have them.

    Send them over to my guild. I will happily keep them up. It isn't a problem for me. I used to go through the market and find non guilded low level players and send them mail asking if they would like to join my guild specifically to get the guild buffs because they are such a bonus at the low levels. I had a lot of response and a lot of people join.

    The issue became the fact that most new players, even with the buffs didn't seem to stick around very long. So I soon had hundreds of inactive accounts.

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