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  1. #1
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    Default Please Adjust Alchemist Before Going Live - Avoid the Future Nerf

    I realize there is very little evidence at this early stage, but the initial videos I am seeing appear to show that the Alchemist is very OP. Please make the appropriate adjustments to its power BEFORE going live, and avoid having to nerf it 12 months from now after folks purchase it. The standard practice of selling OP stuff, just to nerf it in the near future, makes people upset, even if they know that is how the company operates.

    Thank you for considering this suggestion.

  2. #2
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    Links?

    Without evidens the claim is less credible.
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  3. #3

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    R.I.P Inquisitive, ALL hail the new king Alchemist!!!

  4. #4
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    Of course our intentional is to release a balanced and fun class. That being said, without specifics, I'm kind of unsure as to what specifically you think is overperforming. If you have any details we're all ears.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  5. #5
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    Thank you for the response. I saw a couple brief videos in a Guild Discord Channel that seemed to show OP DPS. I will ask for permission to link to the videos after I leave the office today. Need to first earn some money to pay the bills.

  6. #6
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    I checked out alcey
    Not my cup of tea.
    Planescape City of Doors for DDO endgame. Even dying in certain places can create new adventures.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Of course our intentional is to release a balanced and fun class. That being said, without specifics, I'm kind of unsure as to what specifically you think is overperforming. If you have any details we're all ears.
    It's difficult to find a build that works well or over-performs in 2 days, even if I devote my entire time to just that. If you want proper feedback on Alchemists then leave Lamannia running for a week or two. I've only really taken a cursory look at it because I knew there wasn't time to do more and my main priority was seeing how badly you'd nerfed my Inquisitive (where you gave me a 40% hit where a 20% - 25% hit would have been about right).

  8. #8
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    I am sure Alchemist will be a fun class. I just hope we get a rogue/warrior class or universal enhancement tree this year.

    Several Monstrous races to play around the game would also be alot of fun (Rakshasa sigh) Bugbear, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Sahuagin, Gnoll, Minotaur and many other folks we are used to see around the settlements, wilderness and at quests. I would really prefer a monstrous race with extra feat and skill bonuses, healing amplification etc instead of a Human (shrugs).

    Please no more elves and similar beings, exegarated casters and ranged last action heroes...


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  9. #9
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    As an observation, majority of new PC's are put out massively overpowered and then nerfed.
    Its almost like it was bait and switch.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-2 View Post
    As an observation, majority of new PC's are put out massively overpowered and then nerfed.
    Its almost like it was bait and switch.
    Overpowered how? Tell us where you think Alchemist is OP and we can take a look and iterate. If you don't provide details it's very difficult to make changes. Our goal is something balanced and fun and provides new ways to play, you can help us provide that and prevent a future rebalance with feedback.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  11. #11
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Overpowered how? Tell us where you think Alchemist is OP and we can take a look and iterate. If you don't provide details it's very difficult to make changes. Our goal is something balanced and fun and provides new ways to play, you can help us provide that and prevent a future rebalance with feedback.
    It's as much a historic problem as it is a current one, I have no input on Alchemist, it's a caster type, basically, and I don't do them, but since this latest round of nerfs was ostensibly aimed at Inquis, maybe take some notes on it's original release state, and what you've had to do to the entirety of a playstyle to "fix" it? That seems like a good starting place to me, since all the meta data on it is readily available, to you.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-2 View Post
    As an observation, majority of new PC's are put out massively overpowered and then nerfed.
    Its almost like it was bait and switch.
    In their defense, the recent Falconry and Vistani did a pretty good job toeing the line (on different sides of it). It was definitely the case with the old class balance passes under Turbine though. All except the recent ones like War Priest basically contributed to power creep. PM might also have been a bit too strong, but Inq is definitely an outlier.

    Falconry just got much more appealing in this patch actually.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-16-2020 at 02:55 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    In their defense, the recent Falconry and Vistani did a pretty good job toeing the line (on different sides of it). It was definitely the case with the old class balance passes under Turbine though. All except the recent ones like War Priest basically contributed to power creep. PM might also have been a bit too strong, but Inq is definitely an outlier.

    Falconry just got much more appealing in this patch actually.
    Unfortunately for warpriest though it still sucks.

  14. #14
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    At level 1, Alchemist isn't overperorming. Seriously. I'm so much tired of all of this end-game-crowd cries "it is overperforming !" who are at the same time thinking of the lowest levels like some stinking dirt, angrily put.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  15. #15
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    At level 1, Alchemist isn't overperorming. Seriously. I'm so much tired of all of this end-game-crowd cries "it is overperforming !" who are at the same time thinking of the lowest levels like some stinking dirt, angrily put.
    I wonder if this is the same logic that SSG used to justify "Inquis isn't overperforming"? We can see where that got us, right?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Overpowered how? Tell us where you think Alchemist is OP and we can take a look and iterate. If you don't provide details it's very difficult to make changes. Our goal is something balanced and fun and provides new ways to play, you can help us provide that and prevent a future rebalance with feedback.
    I've mentioned this here and there on the Lama forums but since you ask...

    Its got too many features all at once. The key to meta builds in DDO is finding optimal synergy, and this class synergizes way too much. Its the same complaint people had about Inqui - its got everything all nicely tied up together in one package, freeing up opportunity choices that can be used to pair it with other stuff.

    You have a class that has INT to everything including 2 saves with Evasion, full support for simple throwers (including multiple ROF boosts, +1/+1 crit and Poison imbue with built-in immunity break), self-heals and buffs and cleanses, a temp HP bubble, lots of AOE helpless CC and debuffs, high AOE DPS, INT to hit/dmg native, and bonus feats. Just about the only things its lacking are armor (no big deal) and a trance (which is just 8 AP away in Harper).

    The goal may have been to force some internal tradeoffs through the Reaction system but that really didnt materialize - there's usually one Reaction that's obvious BIS for a given build, giving you something much more useful than what you're giving up in the other Reactions. Same for the Alch feat list, there's an obvious choice at 4/8/12 and the others arent really useful.

    The end result is a class that offers a whole lot as a small splash, offers even more as a deep splash, or can be built pure and have all the best parts of Divine and Arcane casting all rolled into one. Its like its supposed to be a "jack of all trades" profession but ends up being a master of them all. Its not that any one element is inherently OP, they're all just "full power" - but its having ALL those elements available simultaneously that makes it too strong. When you look at the other options for INT builds - Rogue, Wiz, Arti, or any Martial class with Harper - there's just way too much synergy possible. Same as Inqui was, being able to tack a complete ranged toolkit onto any build.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Unfortunately for warpriest though it still sucks.
    If Warpriest were built with the same philosophy as Alch, it'd have like EK-level Light Damage imbue on Favored Weapons in the cores, WIS to hit/dmg with trance, Haste Boost, a ticking Temp HP bubble based on WIS, a whole slew of MP and PRR/MRR and Doublestrike bonuses, +1/+1 crit without War Domain, and some AOE attacks. In other words, it'd be everything you'd want for a complete Warpriest playstyle.

    And it'd be crazy OP, but would be a lot more fun than the tepid broth of Warpriest we actually got

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Unfortunately for warpriest though it still sucks.
    From what I recall, they got a slight direct and indirect buff in the patch though. They also aren't that much worse than other melee late-game when their lack of MP/+dmg is comparatively less.

    Biggest problem with War Priest is just that it has no interesting combat mechanic.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-16-2020 at 04:21 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I've mentioned this here and there on the Lama forums but since you ask...

    Its got too many features all at once. The key to meta builds in DDO is finding optimal synergy, and this class synergizes way too much. Its the same complaint people had about Inqui - its got everything all nicely tied up together in one package, freeing up opportunity choices that can be used to pair it with other stuff.

    You have a class that has INT to everything including 2 saves with Evasion, full support for simple throwers (including multiple ROF boosts, +1/+1 crit and Poison imbue with built-in immunity break), self-heals and buffs and cleanses, a temp HP bubble, lots of AOE helpless CC and debuffs, high AOE DPS, INT to hit/dmg native, and bonus feats. Just about the only things its lacking are armor (no big deal) and a trance (which is just 8 AP away in Harper).

    The goal may have been to force some internal tradeoffs through the Reaction system but that really didnt materialize - there's usually one Reaction that's obvious BIS for a given build, giving you something much more useful than what you're giving up in the other Reactions. Same for the Alch feat list, there's an obvious choice at 4/8/12 and the others arent really useful.

    The end result is a class that offers a whole lot as a small splash, offers even more as a deep splash, or can be built pure and have all the best parts of Divine and Arcane casting all rolled into one. Its like its supposed to be a "jack of all trades" profession but ends up being a master of them all. Its not that any one element is inherently OP, they're all just "full power" - but its having ALL those elements available simultaneously that makes it too strong. When you look at the other options for INT builds - Rogue, Wiz, Arti, or any Martial class with Harper - there's just way too much synergy possible. Same as Inqui was, being able to tack a complete ranged toolkit onto any build.
    Stellar analysis.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with droid's summary.

    In addition to droid's general summary, 2 specific points of concern I have are

    1. Big burning ambition dots: Too easy to accumulate and apply as riders to other base damage spells (unlike more traditional dots that the dot is the whole thing, not an extra on top of damage)
    2. Darts may get out of control. Please preemptively reduce the 16-20 / x3 crit profile of NightForge Spike.
    Cilon can be found on Orien.

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