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  1. #1
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    Default Two-Handed-Fighters are constantly moving.

    Strikethrough. At the end of the day, a full-damage melee hit to multiple targets is a step in the right direction for THF. I'd still like large, sweeping weapons like greatswords, greataxes, mauls and falchions to hit more than 3 targets at max, but I acknowledge the fact that strikethrough percentages, target caps, etc are all up for adjustment.

    But there isn't a moment in combat where I'm not moving on my two-handed-fighter. It is simply a requirement - in reaper1, even elite - to strafe around to avoid damage and go in for more decisive attacks.



    Two-handed-fighting is a VERY active combat style. I hope the new strikethrough mechanic reflects that, and can be used while moving.
    Last edited by Drachmoril; 01-15-2020 at 06:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    Worth noting that, just as before when you could not Glancing Blow while moving without the first THF feat, the movement restriction of Strikethrough is only for use without the first THF feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    The Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% Strikethrough Chance. You can now Strikethrough while moving. You also gain a +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. For the purpose of this feat, you are considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while using a Two-Handed Melee Weapon (not including Handwraps). You are also considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while wielding a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in your main hand and a Shield, Orb, Rune Arm, or Nothing in your off-hand. You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape."
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  3. #3

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    Ahhh, ninja'd by Lynnabel.

    But yes. For context, this is also true about Glancing Blows on Live - You need the Two Handed Fighting feat to use them while moving. We kept this restriction to incentivize use of the feat at lower levels and to keep a check on Single Weapon Fighting with Hand-and-a-Half weapons.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Worth noting that, just as before when you could not Glancing Blow while moving without the first THF feat, the movement restriction of Strikethrough is only for use without the first THF feat.
    Before, it only penalized people who could be expected to take the THF feat line. Now, Tempests will need to take THF to make their Stand Still of Death slightly more dancelike again.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsotate View Post
    Before, it only penalized people who could be expected to take the THF feat line. Now, Tempests will need to take THF to make their Stand Still of Death slightly more dancelike again.
    Seriously the STUPIDEST THING EVER from SSG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Seriously the STUPIDEST THING EVER from SSG.
    I'm gonna be *that* guy. Anyone that expected one of the trees with particularly solid single-target DPS to keep an ability that lets them essentially quadruple that 66% of the time is just silly.

    If there is something in DDO that is amazingly better than anything else it will probably be balanced, probably down, at some point or another. That people are so shocked by this, and talk about how ranger is "worthless" otherwise and such hyperbole is just proof of how much it's likely necessary and, worse, how much people lean on specific, obviously over-performing builds rather than spreading it out a bit.

    Quite frankly the solution to me seems relatively simple - if the ability's goal is to make it AE-like in melee and THF is supposed to be THE melee AE then, reasonably, it should give the Tempest a not-quite-as-good bit of access to the THF, with some tradeoff. Lot of options - cooldown, damage penalty, etc.

    I think it'd be reasonable to give the Dance the ability to strikethrough while moving, but other than that.. I dunno what people expect.

    Also, everyone panicking that strikethrough "only works with more than one target and is therefore worthless" and also throwing a fit about dance, which only works with more than one target.. c'mon folks. I am downright shocked, though I shouldn't be by now, with how much exaggerated complaining there is on the forums. But it's not just that - it's that it ALL is undermined with this tone of "the devs are evil/hate us/are bad." I've never seen a forum community with people so hell bent on brewing up conspiracy theories about the devs.

    You're not helping make the game better. And, frankly, the devs give way too much time and attention to that kind of attitude that I think, frankly, encourages it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by losian2 View Post
    I'm gonna be *that* guy. Anyone that expected one of the trees with particularly solid single-target DPS to keep an ability that lets them essentially quadruple that 66% of the time is just silly.

    Tempests are currently a solid B+ dps build, they aren't awful but certainly aren't in need of such a massive nerf to one of their main abilities.

    If there is something in DDO that is amazingly better than anything else it will probably be balanced, probably down, at some point or another. That people are so shocked by this, and talk about how ranger is "worthless" otherwise and such hyperbole is just proof of how much it's likely necessary and, worse, how much people lean on specific, obviously over-performing builds rather than spreading it out a bit.

    Tempest is not overperforming, New inquisitive even after it's nerfs is still going to be stronger than tempests and much stronger than bow rangers, bow of which got nerfed this update despite being 'OK'

    Quite frankly the solution to me seems relatively simple - if the ability's goal is to make it AE-like in melee and THF is supposed to be THE melee AE then, reasonably, it should give the Tempest a not-quite-as-good bit of access to the THF, with some tradeoff. Lot of options - cooldown, damage penalty, etc.

    I think it'd be reasonable to give the Dance the ability to strikethrough while moving, but other than that.. I dunno what people expect.

    I'd be willing to accept lossing one additional target if they both didn't increase the cooldown and fixed DoD so if you miss the first attack you still get the buff, unlike on live where if you roll a 1 or even if the mob just takes a step back then your ability is on cooldown and you get nothing. and now the cooldown is even longer to make you feel extra bad when it whiffs

    Also, everyone panicking that strikethrough "only works with more than one target and is therefore worthless" and also throwing a fit about dance, which only works with more than one target.. c'mon folks. I am downright shocked, though I shouldn't be by now, with how much exaggerated complaining there is on the forums. But it's not just that - it's that it ALL is undermined with this tone of "the devs are evil/hate us/are bad." I've never seen a forum community with people so hell bent on brewing up conspiracy theories about the devs.

    The complaints about strikethough are that it's worse than glancing blows for single target because you can't strikethough your main target, it is a completely separate complaint from the DoD nerf and you presenting them as being mututally exclusive is either ignorant or a lie

    You're not helping make the game better. And, frankly, the devs give way too much time and attention to that kind of attitude that I think, frankly, encourages it.
    If you're happy with everything then there is no need for the devs to concern themselves with your opinion, but if you're going to dismiss actual criticism with ignorant arguments then you're the one hurting the development of the game. Critisism is how things improve.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavoredSoul View Post
    If you're happy with everything then there is no need for the devs to concern themselves with your opinion, but if you're going to dismiss actual criticism with ignorant arguments then you're the one hurting the development of the game. Critisism is how things improve.
    Positive feedback is also valid feedback.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  9. #9
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by losian2 View Post
    I'm gonna be *that* guy. Anyone that expected one of the trees with particularly solid single-target DPS to keep an ability that lets them essentially quadruple that 66% of the time is just silly.

    If there is something in DDO that is amazingly better than anything else it will probably be balanced, probably down, at some point or another. That people are so shocked by this, and talk about how ranger is "worthless" otherwise and such hyperbole is just proof of how much it's likely necessary and, worse, how much people lean on specific, obviously over-performing builds rather than spreading it out a bit.

    Quite frankly the solution to me seems relatively simple - if the ability's goal is to make it AE-like in melee and THF is supposed to be THE melee AE then, reasonably, it should give the Tempest a not-quite-as-good bit of access to the THF, with some tradeoff. Lot of options - cooldown, damage penalty, etc.

    I think it'd be reasonable to give the Dance the ability to strikethrough while moving, but other than that.. I dunno what people expect.

    Also, everyone panicking that strikethrough "only works with more than one target and is therefore worthless" and also throwing a fit about dance, which only works with more than one target.. c'mon folks. I am downright shocked, though I shouldn't be by now, with how much exaggerated complaining there is on the forums. But it's not just that - it's that it ALL is undermined with this tone of "the devs are evil/hate us/are bad." I've never seen a forum community with people so hell bent on brewing up conspiracy theories about the devs.

    You're not helping make the game better. And, frankly, the devs give way too much time and attention to that kind of attitude that I think, frankly, encourages it.
    OR... you could correctly recognize that Tempest has decent but not amazing single target DPS and doesn’t even come close to top tier AOE even with the current Dance of Death and you could correctly recognize that being able to clear grabs successfully doesn’t make the class as a whole or the enhancement as a specific ability into anything game breaking - especially since it’s already bugged to not work correctly sometimes now and it’s getting nerfed in multiple ways even WITHOUT needing an extra feat to function.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Positive feedback is also valid feedback.
    Anyone giving possitive feedback to these changes clearly has questionable game knowledge.
    Last edited by Kaboom2112; 01-15-2020 at 08:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  11. #11
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Positive feedback is also valid feedback.
    Not when it’s based on incorrect premises and bad analysis.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by losian2 View Post
    I'm gonna be *that* guy. Anyone that expected one of the trees with particularly solid single-target DPS to keep an ability that lets them essentially quadruple that 66% of the time is just silly.

    If there is something in DDO that is amazingly better than anything else it will probably be balanced, probably down, at some point or another. That people are so shocked by this, and talk about how ranger is "worthless" otherwise and such hyperbole is just proof of how much it's likely necessary and, worse, how much people lean on specific, obviously over-performing builds rather than spreading it out a bit.

    Quite frankly the solution to me seems relatively simple - if the ability's goal is to make it AE-like in melee and THF is supposed to be THE melee AE then, reasonably, it should give the Tempest a not-quite-as-good bit of access to the THF, with some tradeoff. Lot of options - cooldown, damage penalty, etc.

    I think it'd be reasonable to give the Dance the ability to strikethrough while moving, but other than that.. I dunno what people expect.

    Also, everyone panicking that strikethrough "only works with more than one target and is therefore worthless" and also throwing a fit about dance, which only works with more than one target.. c'mon folks. I am downright shocked, though I shouldn't be by now, with how much exaggerated complaining there is on the forums. But it's not just that - it's that it ALL is undermined with this tone of "the devs are evil/hate us/are bad." I've never seen a forum community with people so hell bent on brewing up conspiracy theories about the devs.

    You're not helping make the game better. And, frankly, the devs give way too much time and attention to that kind of attitude that I think, frankly, encourages it.
    I've played tempest more than 30 lives. It's not top tier damage by any means. Tempest pass put it at A- for a few months before other class passes. Then I wouldn't even rank it near B+ by the time power creep tripled down and everything else was brought up to "balance." The DoD nerf brought tempest down. I'm a tempest on live and came into Lamma and tried it. It took an ability that functions 70% of the time and further killed it. If tempests were capable of closing the melee power gap by about 30 points, consistently instead of 15 out 90 seconds, I'd say this would not be as bad but it is. It is atrocious. DoD only makes a difference from about 24 on anyway.

    So tempest aren't overperforming. I'd say it's the only build that feels just right. Sure it got 3-4 skulls done, but no one was soloing R7-10s with it, like every other class in the game. Will it look good in a group playing R10s, yes, because it is propped up by a group. Losing one addition target would have been fine. Hell, I would have accepted the loss of 2 targets, if the up time had been left alone or was more proportionate. Now they're just making more money while I lose 20 seconds of consumable time between mobs.

    They will see a spike in DWS capstone moving forward. It's about 20% more DPS off the top, anyway. Ranger will become lawful outsider and construct assassins and that will about be their place. I see no reason to go t5 anymore. I'll just go DWS and daggers and be more meta OP like I should have done ages ago. Wait, I see no more reason to really invest time playing ranger when I can just play a paladin with the same abilities and better DPS version the same amount of targets.

    Strikethrough and DOD are seperate issues. People are complaining about losing base GBs damage off the top of single targets, which never required a feat despite supposedly now it did, but it never did.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrian69 View Post
    . . .but no one was soloing R7-10s with it . . .
    Whistles innocently . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  14. #14
    Community Member Clemeit's Avatar
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    While we're on the topic of destroying core systems despite 90% of the players protesting, let's get rid of this limitation:

    Last edited by Clemeit; 01-15-2020 at 10:46 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    While we're on the topic of destroying core systems despite 90% of the players protesting, let's get rid of this limitation:

    I had to ask a few people to stop being so awesome quite a few times.

    You're yet another victim of their own awesomeness.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Anyone giving possitive feedback to these changes clearly has questionable game knowledge.
    Pretty much this..... the change is a straight nerf in all situations for 2hf except 2 targets. It's sad too when all they had to do to fix it imo is let gbs crit ds and let cleaves ds and get speed bonuses. Oh and let cleaves get adrenaline....

  17. #17
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    got you covered there
    psykopeta is finally baconpletionist because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS: I post only in the latest thread shown in main page, in the weird case u want something from me, feel free to send pm

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Pretty much this..... the change is a straight nerf in all situations for 2hf except 2 targets. It's sad too when all they had to do to fix it imo is let gbs crit ds and let cleaves ds and get speed bonuses. Oh and let cleaves get adrenaline....
    That's pretty funny, given that when I suggested making glancing blows better everyone came back with "NO THAT'S DUMB GLANCING BLOWS ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO ALL DPS".

    Given that you're fighting more than one target pretty close to 90% of the time in this game, straight up hitting two targets on every single swing as opposed to getting a secondary strike that does about 60% of your base damage, can't crit, can't doublestrike, and only triggers on every OTHER attack is *far* from a "straight nerf".

    It'd be interesting to try out where your strikethrough can hit the same target more than once, so if you're fighting a SINGLE target you do multiplied damage, but that might push way too much advantage onto strikethrough. I dunno. It'd be good to test it. Alternatively, it could be that you hit a single target for a reduced percentage (as it is now with glancing blows), so there's no question of a nerf, it's a straight improvement.

    I'm not sure why ranger Dance of Death had to become a strikethrough effect, though, except for wanting to get *all* of the hit multiple targets abilities on the same system for coding simplicity (wise). It's still a pretty rough nerf, but, it's also a trash clearer, it doesn't affect Ranger SINGLE-TARGET DPS in any way whatsoever. It's a bit disingenuous to talk out of both sides of your mouth and complain that removal of glancing blows is a "straight nerf" for THF except in the (implied) RARE circumstances where you're fighting 2 targets and ALSO complain about the nerf to rangers that only affects them AT ALL . . . when they're fighting 2+ targets . . . and then talk even more disingenously about "ranger DPS" without qualifying that Dance of Death only affects their DPS AT ALL WHEN THEY ARE FIGHTING MULTIPLE TARGETS.

    So, let's be clear--yes, rangers are not "top DPS" against a SINGLE TARGET, such as a solitary boss mob. When it comes to clearing groups of mobs with Dance of Death their damage is INSANE compared to EVERYTHING ELSE OUT THERE melee-wise. Using their SINGLE TARGET DPS as a marker for their MULTI-TARGET ability is ludicrous. DoD is extremely powerful, a slight nerf won't hurt the class overall or even touch their overall "dps standing" because THOSE NUMBERS ARE BASED ON SINGLE-TARGET DPS.

    And just remove the whole "doesn't work while moving without the feat" nonsense altogether. Does two weapon fighting proc while you're moving even without the feat? YES. Do people need "encouragement" to take the two-weapon-fighting feat? No. Does it make any dang difference what level you take the feat at? Extra no.

    And get Strikethrough working properly on bear so I can friggin test it, dammit.

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