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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    I disagree with everyone calling for attack speed increases to THF

    I am also concerned with Strikethrough causing lag on the main servers since DoD is known to cause lag when you get two of them going at once in an instance. In a raid you can lock the raid up pretty easy with 3 tempests.

    Alacrity lag is a real thing and I hope we can go towards melee power benefits (say that THF melee power scales at 150% similar to their stat bonus) in order to solve the issue of DPS.

    I believe THF melee power scaling better would fix the inherent single target imbalance.
    I choose ~15% increase and 2.0 stat mod because that would bring it somewhat inline with the other styles while still having it's own benefits. You could use a +25~50% bonus to melee power and achieve the same result, the problem then becomes how to manage melee power growth long term. We don't want to create another issue three or four years down the road. Right now everyone already gets a 15% alacrity bonus, SWF gets 30%, S&B gets 20%, TWF just attacks twice and Haste Boost adds another 30%. With all that present, adding a 15% to THF wouldn't have a large change.

    Tempests do not lock up an instance, not remotely. I frequently run with other tempests these past few lives and we've never locked up an instance before.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Part of the stated goals of Strikethrough is to not reduce single target damage at all. If what we've previewed didn't hit that mark - and it sounds like we didn't - we can and will continue to iterate.
    Ok then address the nerf to the more than 3 mobs situation. If 2hf is going to be weak st dps (which it already is) and being massively inferior to casters aoe (which it is and will be moreso) what's the point? At a minimum Strike through needs to work with special attacks (special attacks work with offhand hits......) and cleaves need a massive boost (at a minimum double strike, speed, and adrenaline need to work with them). I honestly think strike through needs to START at 100% and go to 200% with basic feats and the enhancements definitely need a massive buff, 3ap for 5 strike through is an insult.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Has there ever been a case where people have taken a certain tack on an item based just on the stats in the forums, but then its proven to be completely different in practice? Usually I think people on the forums generally get it right, they're not promulgating false perceptions. Things like numerical balance and interactions with other loot items are things you dont need to actually put it on to talk about.

    I think there's lots of value in pure academic theorycraft for items. Its not detracting from the testing process. It doesnt discourage people actually using them, and I dont think its something you need to or should discourage in future patches. Plus it makes a lot of us happy to be able to be involved in the process if we cant go test things in-game.
    We know the games mathematical interactions far better then the developers precisely because we spend all our time experimenting with them on our builds. The developers refuse to accept this and think they know how the game is played better then the players do, resulting in all sorts of very bone headed decisions, like insisting on nerfing Dance of Death.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    Oh yeah? Well someone should have chosen their words with a little more care. That, or they were just being honest. I'm going with door #2.
    To be clear, none of what I said is in contradiction to Sev's clarifying statements.

    We are timing character build changes into pooled updates between hardcore seasons (the goal is a little before the start of a season) instead of during hardcore seasons. Timing of release is the only thing that Hardcore League is factoring into character build systems changes. This is simply a big update where we have pooled the vast majority of systems changes that we've wanted to do for the past 6 months or so. We're doing this now as opposed to piecemeal or during the season because it both allows us to get a good consistent systems update cadence and we want to avoid interrupting a hardcore season midway through with large character build changes. The stretch goal is for a systems update/patch to occur a little before a Hardcore season so that if there is a meta shakeup it hasn't been solved before people get going in the new league. But, again, the meta shakeup was planned to happen regardless of hardcore existing. The part that I was talking about in the notes is the timing of the release in relation to when Hardcore will be running and the fact that we want it all in one big update as opposed to spread around in multiple small patches over the course of months.
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  5. #65
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    To be clear, none of what I said is in contradiction to Sev's clarifying statements.
    ....
    Thanks Coco.

    I think most people understand this. I also think that those people who want to misinterpret what you said and cast dev efforts in the most negative light will not be comforted by your post because they just want to be angry. Good luck dealing with them.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Nerfs look great. A changing meta keeps the game fresh. Players get mad but it's something that needs to happen.
    Yep, until server merge talk isn't needed any more, because there aren't enough people left to justify one server. It's one thing to nerf an enhancement tree, it's another to nerf every single playstyle that uses these skills, even if it's minimally, such as my assassin for perched mobs that I can't get to any other way, or artis, mechs, thrower builds, or non-ranger AAs. You can attempt to rally with "but nobody's going to quit" or "the number of players that do quit will be insignificant", and for the latter you may be right, this time. But how many times have population dips occurred during, or after "balance passes"? But let's look at something else here too, have you seen the updated weapons list yet? The current Serpentbranch has two gem slots, one red, and one purple, I believe. Using these allows one to keep that weapon relevant for a good while, if used wisely. The new iteration? One slot, and the focus is entirely poison based. I noticed this right off because this is something that I actually use in the main game, and this nerf is stupid. How long has that bow been in game, and it's never been listed on the "this weapon is stupidly OP and needs to be revamped" list? They could have left the heroic versions alone, and I don't think it's "we need better feedback" that drove not posting the list in appropriate topic, I think, given everything else with this "update", that they knew they'd catch a lot of flack, and tried to minimize the damage by making people actually have to jump in. I mean, the less people that test it, the more they can say "see, it's only a few people that think we're not doing it right" because silence is consent, right?

  7. #67
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Part of the stated goals of Strikethrough is to not reduce single target damage at all. If what we've previewed didn't hit that mark - and it sounds like we didn't - we can and will continue to iterate.
    i really don't understand why the devs don't just post the numbers they used to come to the conclusion that it wasn't going to

    a bunch of players have posted questions, optimism, and doubts. none of that matters to the numbers, so none of it should matter to what iterations you make

    a bunch of players have posted calculations, some showing ST ahead, some showing GB ahead. none of that matters to the numbers either, so none of it should matter to what iterations you make either

    'don't post numbers' is just not working as a communications strategy. if the devs didn't run any numbers in the first place that's a much bigger problem, obviously, but i don't think that's likely. this whole debate could be dramatically cooled with a simple copy and paste, and as a team you refuse to do so. this is really hard to understand

  8. #68
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    Thanks Coco.

    I think most people understand this. I also think that those people who want to misinterpret what you said and cast dev efforts in the most negative light will not be comforted by your post because they just want to be angry. Good luck dealing with them.
    this is really bad advice

    the straightforward way to read "As part of the pass of balance changes for Hardcore Season 2" is that the changes are for Hardcore. in order for it to read as the devs intended it would say something like "As part of the pass of balance changes before but not because of Hardcore Season 2"

    additionally, these misunderstandings were always going to be compounded by the recent dev strategy (especially with Inquisitive) to declare that "new data" prompted the changes without specifying what that data was - nothing about Inquisitives had changed, so it had to be something else significant in game, and with the preview notes peppered with Hardcore references it was an easy conclusion to draw

  9. #69
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    Thanks Coco.

    I think most people understand this. I also think that those people who want to misinterpret what you said and cast dev efforts in the most negative light will not be comforted by your post because they just want to be angry. Good luck dealing with them.
    Is it "misinterpreting", or damage control. I can't count the number of times I've seen "we're not nerfing because of (insert suspect here)" from game developers over the years, only to find that this is exactly what they're doing. My pet example will always be BioWare and Orbital Strike, now called Orbital Tickle by the player base. They claim they didn't nerf it due to PvP, but, and there's always a but, the only version of the skill they nerfed is the class skill. You see, there's two versions, one that could be used in War Zones, and one that couldn't. The one that can't be used in War Zones? They left it alone completely. Sorry, I've been around the industry far too long to buy the "but that's not what we're doing", especially when they state that that's what they're doing. Is it just coincidence that they nuked ranged combat from orbit after a season, and just before another one? I suppose the more gullible amongst us could believe that. Some of us have seen this before, and we've even seen it here too. I was against Reaper since it came up, because I saw this kind of thing coming, along with "but it's too hard", or my personal favorite "it was stupid hard". I can't discuss the aftermath of me pointing out the obvious "play a lower difficulty", but suffice to say that I paid for it. I have 0 trust, all things considered, in some damage control posts countering what was the original stated goal.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    I was there 5 years ago for the original discussion. It was determined at the time it was better not to remove to resist shrines. It was settled by the devs. This is a walk back specifically to balance the game for the HC server. That is really not cool to those of us who spend as much as we do on this game.

    Or I should say used to spend as much as I did.
    I was also there. With the updated guild airship amenity releases devs specifically said cargo hold buffs would go away at some time. Everyone in our guild took an alt character and bought a ton of resist shrines in case the hook points stayed around for a longer time. A few releases later there was a secondary dev confirmation that they weren't going away "yet", but that did not change the original statement that they would go away.

    Since we have obviously different memories of this - one of us who actually cares should find and quote that secondary communication that MODIFIED the original statement that cargo ship buffs would either STAY FOREVER or NOT GOING AWAY YET.

    A few of the other devs have commented that they'd like to remove those buffs over the past few years because it makes balancing early content painful (or possibly game-code interaction with the older style buffs).

    If you want to blame anyone - blame the dev who originally put in resist 30 buffs that were not level scaling as per the spell.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    this is really bad advice

    the straightforward way to read "As part of the pass of balance changes for Hardcore Season 2" is that the changes are for Hardcore. in order for it to read as the devs intended it would say something like "As part of the pass of balance changes before but not because of Hardcore Season 2"

    additionally, these misunderstandings were always going to be compounded by the recent dev strategy (especially with Inquisitive) to declare that "new data" prompted the changes without specifying what that data was - nothing about Inquisitives had changed, so it had to be something else significant in game, and with the preview notes peppered with Hardcore references it was an easy conclusion to draw
    Actually, the Epic Destiny pass hit shortly after Inquisitive did, and Shiradi received a very significant bump to ranged power in its cores. The same ranged power that inquisitive scales law damage 200% with. The same ranged power that scales sneak attacks 150%, which inquisitives get more of because sneak attacks land with the offhand crossbow, which can also double attack. The ED pass took a tree that, if it wasn't splashing lots of rogue may have been in line with what they were going for, and made the rogue version into a monster while lifting all other versions like Favored Soul or uncentered Monk into places that no rational person would say they should be.

    It seems odd to me that any nerf to inquisitive isn't relegated to the inquisitive tree itself. Why mess with rapid reload? IPS? Decrease doubleshot while dual wielding makes sense. Decrease law damage and scaling makes sense. But why make changes that hit all ranged when those ranged classes aren't inquisitives?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post

    We are also reviewing changes to Dance of Death, and doing more testing to see how it compares to Cleave based builds.
    I am glad you are looking at this. I made a first life ranger because I was challenged that this can do quite nice dps (not the top top uber dps but quite nice) as is. And it is good to understand a character that I can recommend to friends who might want to try out the game and who can quickly create for end game - scourge Asimar ranger beautifully fits the bill. You can gear it out quite quickly and get lower tier reaper points without too much trouble while getting in a learning the game - all on a first lifer starting from 15.

    But this change to Dance of Death would have just killed rangers and stopped that idea.

    I sincerely hope also that you look again at tactics based CC like trip to be in line with the effects of dire charge one day so that we can see more variety of builds that way (and would help even first lifer rangers) - eg stick builds.
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  13. #73
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    Keep up the good work devs. Balancing is difficult and pleases nobody. Sad there is so much angry feedback. Don't take it personally.

    Just wanted to remind you the Archmage tree hasn't been updated since Update 7, October 20th 2010.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    insisting on nerfing Dance of Death.
    Per the OP of the thread we're going to be further adjusting Dance of Death, don't worry :) preview notes are just that - preview notes. We can and will continue to iterate.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Per the OP of the thread we're going to be further adjusting Dance of Death, don't worry preview notes are just that - preview notes. We can and will continue to iterate.
    Given the stated design goals of TWF vs THF, is Strikethrough even the right thing to give DoD? Something like stacking bonuses to melee alacrity and off-hand double strike seem like they'd be much more in flavor with the concept of a Tempest while letting that particular TWF style be really good at single-target dps.

  16. #76
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    Actually, the Epic Destiny pass hit shortly after Inquisitive did,
    update 42.4 dropped in August, before the dev statements in October that Inquisitive wasn't OP, but not before Hardcore wrapped up in November

    i recognize i didn't specify that in the post you're quoting but the timeline is crucial

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Per the OP of the thread we're going to be further adjusting Dance of Death, don't worry preview notes are just that - preview notes. We can and will continue to iterate.
    Is the option of not messing with it at all being seriously considered? Because right now the overwhelming response from the community, those that actually play the game and the builds your discussing, is that Tempest is perfectly fine where it is. Nobody is complaining about hordes of tempests swarming around shooting everything to death.

    You guys have enough to deal with trying to actually fix Two Handed Fighting that there shouldn't be any screwing with Tempest.

  18. #78
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We are also reviewing changes to Dance of Death, and doing more testing to see how it compares to Cleave based builds.
    Number one thing - you cannot make it only work when standing still. Either remove that restriction entirely from Strikethrough or give the first feat of TWF and SWF the same power as the first feat of THF, removing that restriction.

    That's the most important. Not being able to move is a total deal-breaker.

    Number two, I strongly dislike the idea that I can't use special abilities with DoD.... but that may not be a deal-breaker... I'd have to test it.

    Number three, I think you are nerfing it too much at once. Either cap the number of mobs at 3 or increase the cooldown - don't do BOTH on your first pass.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  19. #79
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    Default Another Thing I Noticed

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    There has been some concern by players, based on the wording of some of our notes, that the Hardcore server is prompting us to make balance changes that we otherwise wouldn’t consider. All of our balance changes are aimed at the game as a whole. We do want players playing on the Hardcore server to have consistent play during the season and to be able to adopt strategies that won’t drastically change, and we did mean to say that we plan to target balance changes so they mostly happen between Hardcore seasons. We don’t want balance changes to be driven by Hardcore play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    We are timing character build changes into pooled updates between hardcore seasons (the goal is a little before the start of a season) instead of during hardcore seasons. Timing of release is the only thing that Hardcore League is factoring into character build systems changes. This is simply a big update where we have pooled the vast majority of systems changes that we've wanted to do for the past 6 months or so. We're doing this now as opposed to piecemeal or during the season because it both allows us to get a good consistent systems update cadence and we want to avoid interrupting a hardcore season midway through with large character build changes. The stretch goal is for a systems update/patch to occur a little before a Hardcore season so that if there is a meta shakeup it hasn't been solved before people get going in the new league. But, again, the meta shakeup was planned to happen regardless of hardcore existing. The part that I was talking about in the notes is the timing of the release in relation to when Hardcore will be running and the fact that we want it all in one big update as opposed to spread around in multiple small patches over the course of months.
    So the rest of us receive 0 new classes, 0 new enhancement trees, 0 new races, 0 updates to existing classes throughout the Hardcore League Season? That seems like development to cater to the Hardcore League crowd. If something needs fixed, shouldn't it just... happen? Now there are new arbitrary boundaries when updates to the game can/will happen based on a new server that only a certain percentage of the player population even choose to engage with?

    Why can't changes to the Hardcore League Server simply be separate from the other servers? Is it because you would need to release a third client?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistaMagic View Post
    Instead of messing around with these why not just ban airships from the HC Server (problem solved)
    This would be a much better solution. Especially when compared to making a change which hurts new/returning players or people in a smaller guild based on nothing other than a personal pet peeve. Airship buffs are optional, everyone who doesn't want to use them because it makes their gaming experience "not fun" can opt not to use them.
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  20. #80
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    So the rest of us receive 0 new classes, 0 new enhancement trees, 0 new races, 0 updates to existing classes throughout the Hardcore League Season? That seems like development to cater to the Hardcore League crowd. If something needs fixed, shouldn't it just... happen? Now there are new arbitrary boundaries when updates to the game can/will happen based on a new server that only a certain percentage of the player population even choose to engage with?
    This doesn't change the amount of new systems features released each year. This just addresses the release cadence to account for periods of time where it would be detrimental to one of our game environments to introduce systems shakeups. Obviously, we'll still have small patches/hotfixes to address problems regardless of whether Hardcore is mid season or not. We just don't want to purposefully introduce meta shifting changes/new features while hardcore is underway.

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Why can't changes to the Hardcore League Server simply be separate from the other servers? Is it because you would need to release a third client?
    We are doing that. None of the currently previewed features are meant to be exclusive to Hardcore. None of the features/changes currently being previewed were created "for hardcore".

    We do have, however, changes "for hardcore season 2" planned. These changes are not being previewed at the moment. These changes (which aren't character build related) will be active only on the hardcore server and not the rest.

    My main point here is: Everything in this preview was designed and intended for all DDO servers.
    Last edited by Cocomajobo; 01-16-2020 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Added some clarification in the first two sentences.
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