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  1. #61
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Melee was allways a side option at ancient times. Armies never marched through eachother with swords and axes. Polearms were used with strict formations and backbone (the majority of the armies on foot were actually peasents/servs (enslaved farmers/the real folk).


    Mounted archery dominated the ancient world aswell as mounted cavalary with polearms (not knights in full plate; they allways stand back around the high lord).

    At very close encounters and trench wars swords and axes were right after spears, (again) composite short bows and javelins. (Further details below)

    Firearms and cannons were allready at the battlefield in the east at early medieval era (not particularly far east but central regions) aswell as hand grenades.


    But at D&D we play a hero that runs dungeons and Chucks armies single handedly. Naturally many players wish for sneaky hit and run tactics including melee and not only ranged aswell as social skills and stealth to bypass encounters and get xp same time without being Norr1z forever. (More satisfying for us n3rdz)



    Ps: If we try to be more realistic, Mounted archery/mounted arcane archery would dominate DDO forever. D&D based mmos should be balancing the styles for the sake of fantasy roleplaying. This is the point.


    If DDO had openworld pvp I would go for mounted arcane archery (shrugs) but would try to go for trps, social skills and avoidance style melee when arrows dont work or got depleted.

    The question is. Do we run out of arrows or spells or vials at DDO ? Is that a positive thing for creativity and resorcefull gameplay and to keep the players in the game ?
    Last edited by Kutalp; 01-18-2020 at 01:41 PM.

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  2. #62
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    Meh
    This is still the best game out there.
    +1 Preach
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Frankly, this is a bit melodramatic. I see no ranged builds "ruined". Inq's are still great, Mech's are still great, Arti's are still decent, heroic AA's were affected less than people realize. All simple thrower builds are now much better. Non-AA bows will be even weaker, but if they weren't ruined before they won't be by a <20% change.

    DDO's problem is retaining new players as much as it is retaining old players, so it's impossible to conclude how balance changes like this will affect future population.
    Yeah, Mech is still great, I see so many of us running around. Oh wait, no I don't. I'm pretty concerned that there is this grand assumption that Mechanic will still be in a great place after the potential 20% IPS nerf. Is it better off than bows? Yes, no doubt. But can you give me any reason why a pure rogue Mechanic not using EF or NHB boosts needs a 20% nerf to IPS damage? It's absolutely unwarranted. That's me, and I am not anything remotely close to OP. Nerfing IPS because of the synergy between IPS and EF/NHB (inquis) firing rate boosts is really a shortsighted and oversimplistic solution. Nerf the interaction of the two if you must, but please leave plain old IPS alone. The nerf to bow users is even more of a reason to come up with a more elegant solution.

    I kind of feel the same way as the OP. I spent a LONG time building my Mechanic (first toon ever) up from level 1 to level 30, longer than most of you would ever believe. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of playing this game 20+ hours a week. Every bit of power was painstakingly acquired. Running Crystal Cove and rangen based gearset from Level 1-20. Slowly filling in epic spheres and filling in my gearset with lower epic named items, which were sadly very useful to me then. Then getting to cap and farming leg Ravenloft items on LH (which is brutal and took over a month). Soon after that, I got Sharn and acquired my artifact, leveled it, and added filigrees, got Rolling Thunder, leveled it, got my Wallwatch set, planned a new set around it, etc. etc. This took a long time. I'm now at the point where I can, with some difficulty, solo LE. I can be a contributor in very low reaper groups, though I'd say I'm almost always the weakest member. This is where the majority of LFMs are. So now I feel like I'm barely at the point where I can hang with most of the players out there.

    My point is that after all of this work, to get barely good enough to not feel like I'm useless to a group and build up the courage to actually join groups, I'm going to get a 20% damage reduction for using what is a core feat for almost all ranged characters. It just makes me really sad to be knocked down this hard after I spent so much time (and money) building power bit by bit so that I could join in the fun. It's depressing really.
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 01-17-2020 at 12:23 PM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    My point is that after all of this work, to get barely good enough to not feel like I'm useless to a group and build up the courage to actually join groups, I'm going to get a 20% damage reduction for using what is a core feat for almost all ranged characters. It just makes me really sad to be knocked down this hard after I spent so much time (and money) building power bit by bit so that I could join in the fun. It's depressing really.
    Honestly, to me this signals that the game will always be balanced around people that have more time and/ or money invested in this game than I ever will, and that adjustments to those high end players will be made in a way that hurts everyone.

    At the extreme high end of what's possible, Inq. really did need to be reigned in. Doing that by taking a sledgehammer to every ranged build that uses IPS, including bow builds that the devs acknowledge are under-powered, indicates a strategy towards managing this game that is completely at odds with making it more fun (to my tastes) over time. Yes, it's going to be rolled back for bows now, after we pointed out the absurdly obvious. But what on earth would possess them to even contemplate nerfing bow users in the first place? And how on earth are repeater builds that have literally been in the game for years OP?

    My highest level characters are all melees, so I'm not directly affected. Even my ranged characters often don't take IPS because of how much I need to give up (or buy from the store) on a first life build to hit 19 inherent dex. It's just the signal that the change sends. Any team that would look at something this drastic and think "That's it right there, that is definitely the best solution!" has a very different vision of what makes for a fun game from mine.

    Guild airship amenities is another case in point. Players using maxed out airships will barely be affected at all. It's only casual players like me that are really going to be affected, and it looks like they won't even be leaving in the crewmembers like the kobold and the House K defender for us. I could buy my way out of being penalized by dropping $100 on shards for a ship with more space, but I refuse to on principle. Every single casual guild that isn't willing to pony up a ton of cash is about to take a huge hit.

    Me personally, it's time to take a break. I'm going to let the dust settle and see if this is a game I find fun in six months or year. The new epics quests look great and Alch. may well be a good bit of fun. It's just not enough to make me stick around while other parts of the game I enjoy are being burned down around me. If I were to summarize my current feelings about all the changes coming, it would be "Does not inspire optimism."
    Last edited by yfernbottom; 01-18-2020 at 01:44 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    Yeah, Mech is still great, I see so many of us running around. Oh wait, no I don't. I'm pretty concerned that there is this grand assumption that Mechanic will still be in a great place after the potential 20% IPS nerf. Is it better off than bows? Yes, no doubt. But can you give me any reason why a pure rogue Mechanic not using EF or NHB boosts needs a 20% nerf to IPS damage? It's absolutely unwarranted. That's me, and I am not anything remotely close to OP. Nerfing IPS because of the synergy between IPS and EF/NHB (inquis) firing rate boosts is really a shortsighted and oversimplistic solution. Nerf the interaction of the two if you must, but please leave plain old IPS alone. The nerf to bow users is even more of a reason to come up with a more elegant solution.

    I kind of feel the same way as the OP. I spent a LONG time building my Mechanic (first toon ever) up from level 1 to level 30, longer than most of you would ever believe. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of playing this game 20+ hours a week. Every bit of power was painstakingly acquired. Running Crystal Cove and rangen based gearset from Level 1-20. Slowly filling in epic spheres and filling in my gearset with lower epic named items, which were sadly very useful to me then. Then getting to cap and farming leg Ravenloft items on LH (which is brutal and took over a month). Soon after that, I got Sharn and acquired my artifact, leveled it, and added filigrees, got Rolling Thunder, leveled it, got my Wallwatch set, planned a new set around it, etc. etc. This took a long time. I'm now at the point where I can, with some difficulty, solo LE. I can be a contributor in very low reaper groups, though I'd say I'm almost always the weakest member. This is where the majority of LFMs are. So now I feel like I'm barely at the point where I can hang with most of the players out there.

    My point is that after all of this work, to get barely good enough to not feel like I'm useless to a group and build up the courage to actually join groups, I'm going to get a 20% damage reduction for using what is a core feat for almost all ranged characters. It just makes me really sad to be knocked down this hard after I spent so much time (and money) building power bit by bit so that I could join in the fun. It's depressing really.
    As I recall it's right there in the patch notes, they said that unbeknownst to them, Mech had also been overperforming a bit. I'm really not sure how much, I honestly don't have any up to date DPS numbers, but kiting AoE ranged needs to have lower DPS than punching-bag single-target melee or nobody that care about power is going to play the latter. Mech is likely still miles better than THF even after the changes, but don't worry, SSG will probably dial back the IPS nerf a bit based on feedback. That means Mech will be almost untouched.

    Still, I'm a bit surprised that you are the weakest member on R1 with that gear. I'm not sure what you mean by that, but perhaps you don't have a reliable way to generate sneak attacks or break fort, or don't have enough RXP for the HP bonuses. I haven't played in a while, but a GXB Mech with good gear in e.g. Shiradi should do good damage.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-18-2020 at 02:42 PM.

  6. #66
    Community Member Drunkendex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yfernbottom View Post
    Honestly, to me this signals that the game will always be balanced around people that have more time and/ or money invested in this game than I ever will, and that adjustments to those high end players will be made in a way that hurts everyone.
    Every MMORPG I played was designed around those who no-life/threw tons of money, so I don't expect different here.

  7. #67
    Community Member Goalt's Avatar
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    You can waste your life or you can waste your money, OR you can waste both. Props to you for not doing any/fooling yourself into doing any, unlike the majority of players/no-lifers in this game.
    (Honestly, it's a bit ridiculous the number of devout followers this game has. SSG could just pretend to be improving the game and these fools would still throw money at it as if their lives depended on it.)
    grammar trigger alert
    lose, not loose
    The problem with focusing on the most extreme of players is that that group will only get smaller and smaller... Oof
    You know you have a problem when a virtual fantasy game ruins your concept of real world money and its value.

  8. #68
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    I play variations of a WC bard as often as possible. That class combo is the whole reason I play the game. The meta of DDO has been ranged for far too long and it’s only gotten worse with inquis. I did a few melee wizard PL’s and went right back to WC because I got tired of all the inquis kiting and the melee chasing.

    Find a class you like to play and stop enjoying the flavor of the month builds.

  9. #69
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbik View Post
    I play variations of a WC bard as often as possible. That class combo is the whole reason I play the game. The meta of DDO has been ranged for far too long and it’s only gotten worse with inquis. I did a few melee wizard PL’s and went right back to WC because I got tired of all the inquis kiting and the melee chasing.

    Find a class you like to play and stop enjoying the flavor of the month builds.
    I feel like there was somewhat less of this war between the playstyles when most people had a stable of alts. But now that most people have only a few they care about... it really seems like (no proof, just feeling) there is this contention between the playstyles where portions of the player base are always advocating for their preference to get moved up. I play my casters more often but I have:
    Aelonwy - Cleric
    Aelurawynn - Artificier
    Aelyrra - Hagglebard but was a bardificier
    Aertimys - Swashbard
    Aurvaeyn - Dwarven Defender
    Crystalorn - Paladin
    Kaelaria - Warchanter
    Lunaura - Ranger Tempest
    Metaluscious - Illusionist Archmage
    Phantastique - Spellsinger
    Saurscha - Warlock
    Vaelyns - Rog Acrobat
    Wydavir - (was elf pure ranger AA, now Inq)
    Wyllowynd - Druid

    A good mix, I think, and again it just feels like most of this nerfage just defeats the purpose of fun.

    P.S. In part I play my casters more often because I duo with my hubby and he usually wants to play a melee or ranged/rog skilled type.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutalp View Post
    Melee was always a side option at ancient times.
    Disagree. The Romans were known for their Gladius, not the Pilum


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  11. #71
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I feel like there was somewhat less of this war between the playstyles when most people had a stable of alts. But now that most people have only a few they care about... it really seems like (no proof, just feeling) there is this contention between the playstyles where portions of the player base are always advocating for their preference to get moved up. I play my casters more often but I have:
    Aelonwy - Cleric
    Aelurawynn - Artificier
    Aelyrra - Hagglebard but was a bardificier
    Aertimys - Swashbard
    Aurvaeyn - Dwarven Defender
    Crystalorn - Paladin
    Kaelaria - Warchanter
    Lunaura - Ranger Tempest
    Metaluscious - Illusionist Archmage
    Phantastique - Spellsinger
    Saurscha - Warlock
    Vaelyns - Rog Acrobat
    Wydavir - (was elf pure ranger AA, now Inq)
    Wyllowynd - Druid

    A good mix, I think, and again it just feels like most of this nerfage just defeats the purpose of fun.

    P.S. In part I play my casters more often because I duo with my hubby and he usually wants to play a melee or ranged/rog skilled type.
    I have a full stable of alts that I am interested in, still. However, I played ranged builds that weren't welcome in parties unless they knew they weren't going to fill in a reasonable amount of time if they rejected me. My classic example of this is VoN 5/6 on a pure Ranger AA when the only acceptable AA in the meta was the monkcher build. Fast forward from that a couple of years, and I had a lot of heat for a FvS AA in the same raid, but got a whisper from one of the main players that was objecting to it, asking me for my build, or if it was posted here in the forums, because it managed to place 3rd overall in the kill sheet, something I wouldn't have known if they hadn't pointed it out. I wouldn't have known because it simply doesn't matter to me. It's not why I'm running content.

    When I'm pointing out the flaws I see with this update, I'm not only focused on me, however. I use my own experience because it's quantifiable, it is, after all, my own experience, so I have first hand knowledge, but I'm looking at what I see the impact as on the entire game. The point being that I'm not playing ranged because it suddenly found it's way into being considered OP in the meta, I'm playing ranged because in every game where it's an option, I play ranged. I didn't play sniper in swtor because it was considered OP, I played it because it's ranged, that it was strong was icing on the cake. The same for Operatives/Smugglers in the same game. Now, my Bard/Assassin/AA that I built in Neverwinter Nights? It was OP, and it was OP by design, and it wasn't because I built all of it's gear in the toolset so it would be. I found all the synergies that came with the combination, including the Assassinate ability working with ranged weapons, and built it up from there, and in the PvP arena on the server where I built it, local vault, so no outside gear could get in, it proved it's dominance. Building these characters is what I love to do, theory crafting, and my stable reflects that. I have all sorts of "strange" stuff. Some of it's even surprisingly effective, initially. Some of it's "what was I thinking" bad, but that's what happens when you take builds that look good on paper and translate them to the game, sometimes you strike gold, and sometimes it's iron pyrite. If anyone ever sees me running a build off the build forums, it's a safe bet that it's an accident. I found something that someone else found.

    I see that as a larger problem with today's game than anything else, the top x% of the population determines how the game is built/played going forward, and if you're not playing the builds that are top x% approved, you're left behind. I want to say it was Delirium in the 12, where one of my guild mates had hit the LFG panel for an elite run, and posted in guild chat that it was up. I was fixing to run it on my Arti, so figured I'd join in. The cleric latched onto me as soon as I was in, complaining that I only had 297 HP, instead of the 300 she wanted me to have to qualify for the quest. After 15 minutes of her tirade, I dropped group. Since I was standing right outside the quest, I went ahead and ran it solo, on Elite, and finished before they did. Ironically, according to my guild mate that was in the group, the cleric that went on that tirade was the first one to die, in the first room. This is the largest part of the problem with grouping, and it's not just here, I have similar stories in just about every MMO I've played, where some classes, or specs of classes, aren't "optimal" or "optimized according to (insert arbitrary condition here)" and so aren't allowed. My guild has players all over the spectrum, from new players, to players that can, and will play in top tier content. I group in the guild, when I group. It's not because I'm worried about being exposed as a weak player, I'm a long way from that, but because I'm not willing to listen to the sermons about how only x build works for y class, and playing anything else is gimped.

    Sorry for the wall of text, I didn't know it was going to be this long, and I had to curtail it, because there's a lot more where this came from, and the tl;dr would be tl;dr.

  12. #72
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Yeah I've wished for years they would just remove the quest kill count. All it does is cause strife and it really only tells you who got the killing blow. If you want to keep track of what you personally have slain this life... purchase the Monster Manual it will tell you.
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  13. #73
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    The biggest issue here is that the devs really do not seem to understand the game's actual player base. They are balancing things for the smallest percent of the player base, which are the loudest screamers on the forums.

    The vast majority of the player base would be more casual players who play to relieve stress, not to run stressful content regularly. The devs do not seem to realize the effect the changes of this update will have.

    Most of the players DO NOT frequent the forums, they will have mostly no idea what Is about to happen.

    What WILL happen, is that the vast majority of the players will log in after the update, and find the entire base of their playing experience gutted.

    MOST players rely on the resistance buffs. It is literally the number one thing they take for granted. It makes the 2 or 3 hours you spend at the lowest leves not a slog, but a fun easy run with characters who can't do much of anything, on the way to the character becoming what they eventually become. When they log in to find this gone, it will be profoundly negative to a vast amount of the player base.

    AT the moment the build most fun for most non power gamers is the Inqu. Not because it is uber powerful, but because it is FUN, and it doesn't take a lot of skill or knowledge to be useful with. When they find this build, which they had to actually spend money to acquire, totally nerfed, it WILL give them a vastly negative response.

    So I will make this point again, when the vast majority logs in to find the casual fun they were having gutted for no good reasons, how do you think they will react?

    How much leverage will most give to a 13 year old game, which the devs have absolutely prioritized profit margin over enjoyment of the player base?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krumm View Post
    I been playing DDO for many years...

    Lately, it's been getting harder and harder to grind out the past lives and run raids at cap (in between lives)...


    Logically, I know Inquisitive builds are OP.
    I know because I tried every build combo during my last 12+ racial/epic lives or so.

    But upcoming nerf on Inquisitives is a real downer as I quite enjoyed playing inquisitive builds.
    Inquisitives got hit big and while I have some ideas still left (finally try the zombie inquisitive idea?) it's still a big downer.

    Also, epic quests and items at levels 23/27 is frankly as uninteresting as it gets.

    For me at least, I level so fast that I swap a set of crafted items at level 20/26/29.
    More epic items bound to account is pretty useless for me.
    While more quests to run during leveling is nice, no new legendary gears to loot is a pretty big let down.
    I wish SSG would of made at least one of the packs legendary...

    I am 7 racial lives from completing my past lives (+ alchemist lives when they come out) but frankly I am loosing the will to continue.


    I've taken many breaks from DDO... perhaps it's time.
    Maybe DDO will look better in 6 months or so...


    Rohden of Khyber
    Inquisitive nerf was expected...

    I think u can have fun in the same way u have now.

    Then i'm against other changes in particular elemental res shrine. They are hitting mainly the new population here and there is no balance because all are affected.

    Dont remove things that help new players or the game will die faster...

    Stop balancing for hard core server please. Let these hardcore players survive lvl 2 quests...
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  15. #75
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    I like that Inquis is being nerfed for the same reason I liked Warlock being nerfed.

    This game has an infinite number of builds and play styles available to us, the players, yet, I'd say at least 30% of the people I run with are currently Inquis. I understand its "new" but if it weren't the easiest decent-to-high dps out there, people wouldn't play it.

    Alchemist is coming...and it will be the next Flavor of the Month, probably with really good dps, too. So, nerf inquis and we'll see 30% of our population playing alchemist most likely.

    My wife has played this game with me for years...she's not a gamer. She struggled and was frustrated a lot of the time as melee, and didn't really find her grove with mechanic or arty. Then came Inquis. I farmed her a Ratcatcher, put auto attack on her hotbar as well as a "select next target" hot-key on her mouse.

    Now she follows me around, contributes REAL dps, and loves the game. She often leads the kill-count. And all she's doing is auto attacking and "tab-targeting"...with the occasional cool-down thrown in.

    While its great for her gaming ability, is it really a remotely balance play style in its current form?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Yeah I've wished for years they would just remove the quest kill count. All it does is cause strife and it really only tells you who got the killing blow. If you want to keep track of what you personally have slain this life... purchase the Monster Manual it will tell you.
    I don't think we'll see a change as long as there's a DDO store that sells more than cosmetic items.

    Low kill count = feel bad about your contribution
    Feel bad about your contribution? DDO store to the rescue

    We know it's not the only success factor in a quest and isn't even necessarily an indicator of top contribution, but there's still a psychology to it, and I feel pretty confident the kill counts are there to drive sales.

  17. #77
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    The population will not change ... at all.

    Every time they make a big change or add something new...
    same doom sayers.

    The game will die.
    Everyone is going to leave.
    I am leaving right now.

    and.....nothing happens.

    Where you going to go?
    NWO ? If that was your style, you would already be there.

    Doom Saying does NOTHING.

    Instead, try making suggestions.
    Try the stuff on LAM and give feedback

    Stop crying.
    Nothing happens!!?!!

    Good lord have you not seen what has happened to the game over the last couple of years.

    Yeah, it hasn't shut down yet. But it has definitely lost players.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Low kill count = feel bad about your contribution
    You shouldn't feel bad about your kill count in a game where the rogue is only getting kills because someone else grabbed aggro.

    In fact, you shouldn't even care about kill count. It's not a competition, and it's sad to see people trying to compete against someone playing a cooperative game like DDO.

  19. #79
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    ....

    I see that as a larger problem with today's game than anything else, the top x% of the population determines how the game is built/played going forward....
    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    The biggest issue here is that the devs <...> are balancing things for the smallest percent of the player base....
    <redacted for brevity w/o changing statement.>

    There is merit to these statements.

    Do I have any idea how to get around this fact? No.

    Reaper was supposed to be the 'fun' for the uber-set to keep them entertained while the rest of us could still play the game as we always had. Things started changing as Reaper became the 'normal' thing to do, and then the slope got slippery. ...and here we are.

    [edit: I will admit that what I'm stating isn't because of *only* U45, but is rather a continuation of a slide that began many updates ago. Heck, even pre-Reaper.]
    Last edited by cdbd3rd; 01-19-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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  20. #80
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    <redacted for brevity w/o changing statement.>

    There is merit to these statements.

    Do I have any idea how to get around this fact? No.

    Reaper was supposed to be the 'fun' for the uber-set to keep them entertained while the rest of us could still play the game as we always had. Things started changing as Reaper became the 'normal' thing to do, and then the slope got slippery. ...and here we are.

    [edit: I will admit that what I'm stating isn't because of *only* U45, but is rather a continuation of a slide that began many updates ago. Heck, even pre-Reaper.]
    It's true, updates do not happen in a vacuum, and one must look at everything if they want to truly evaluate how things might go.

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