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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I'm confused why you think a flat +10-16-22 damage is a waste of a feat. PA is a must take on THF builds not for cleave but for damage output.
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    That's more a Barb thing then a general use thing. On all my fighter builds I take both Power Attack and Precision, because fighter is awesome like that. Throughout all heroics I mainly use Power Attack, into Epics I start turning on Precision because the fort bypass becomes far more useful then +5/+10 to base damage. Barb gets a bunch of boosts to PA, H.Orc also gets boosts that stack with Barb's boosts. LD technically gets a boost, but 0.5W isn't much of anything to write home about and is beaten by a tier 1 twist. IPA should seriously be like +1W on 1H and +2W on 2H weapons. Cleaves are powerful in Heroics where they can take out entire packs of monsters, in Epics they really only become useful to reset Momentum Swing which is awesome sauce.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    Some version of this is how the THF pass needs to be implemented if its going to actually bring THF on board as melee dps

    Yeah Strikethrough needs to be much higher then it's currently projected if we're going to be forced to take it. This includes the ST on DoD, along with keeping DoD's timers the same as now. Cleaves also need updated, the +W stuff works well in Heroics but becomes almost useless in Epics. Give them a percentage boost to melee power instead, like regular Cleave gets +50% MP boost and Great Cleave gets +100% MP boost.

    The common thread I keep seeing is that THF is good at low levels but simply doesn't scale into epics / reapers. The scaling is what needs fixed.

  3. #283
    Community Member chipotle47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    Is it a huge thing to make the cap 300% or 4 targets? That would make the Acrobat capstone more viable (at 100% bonus after a tumble) and give other 2hf builds the hope of potentially hitting more than 3 targets like glancing blows was capable of.
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  4. #284
    Community Member chipotle47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Cleaves are powerful in Heroics where they can take out entire packs of monsters, in Epics they really only become useful to reset Momentum Swing which is awesome sauce.
    Actually they become completely useless in epics because the animation for momentum swing is so long it's a actually a dps loss compared to just just auto attacking. The numbers are pretty sometimes but between the animation and cleaving to reset it, it's not worth it.
    "The definition of success is rebuffing between deaths with great enthusiasm."

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  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipotle47 View Post
    Actually they become completely useless in epics because the animation for momentum swing is so long it's a actually a dps loss compared to just just auto attacking. The numbers are pretty sometimes but between the animation and cleaving to reset it, it's not worth it.
    Your thinking single target, which is definitely a DPS loss on Momentum Swing. On multiple targets Momentum Swing is a big gain because it's three cleaves with +3 Crit Threat Range on all targets. Also you don't use regular cleaves to reset it in the middle of a fight, the cleaves don't need to hit anything to reset Momentum Swing so you use them while running to the next room. Dire Charge into the middle of the pack and hit Momentum Swing, then go about smashing stuff like normal. Doing that usually has at least one if not two monsters instantly dead. Once the pack is cleared you start running towards the next room and use cleaves to again reset Momentum so you can start off with it. Getting 3 high crit attacks on multiple targets in a few seconds is a DPS boost no matter how you slice it.

  6. #286
    Community Member Rauven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Right now Strikethrough caps at [200%], which would mean that with the THF feats you'd be hitting that cap - which makes the earlier enhancements in TA useless. We can keep tinkering with the number to make sure it's worth it, ideally we do keep the tumble mechanic as tumbling is a fun aspect of TA that helps the tree feel unique.
    Except that the thief-acro tree, while not as heavily so as assassin, incentives being a dex build and dex builds don't generally take the THF line. This change to the capstone takes away a dex based thief-acro's ability to consistently hit multiple targets. We were already doing without glancing blows as a build decision, with this change we'll also be losing aoe. This design decision seems to not take into consideration that dex based thief-acro's exist and don't take the THF line

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Yeah Strikethrough needs to be much higher then it's currently projected if we're going to be forced to take it. This includes the ST on DoD, along with keeping DoD's timers the same as now. Cleaves also need updated, the +W stuff works well in Heroics but becomes almost useless in Epics. Give them a percentage boost to melee power instead, like regular Cleave gets +50% MP boost and Great Cleave gets +100% MP boost.

    The common thread I keep seeing is that THF is good at low levels but simply doesn't scale into epics / reapers. The scaling is what needs fixed.
    Disclaimer:
    I have not tested Lama - I need more than two days to find time to hop on.

    As others have said, Strike Through (ST) seems to seriously undermine the cleave mechanics (which don't scale well anyway). What if Cleave added +50 ST, 20MP and +1 possible target and Great Cleave added another +100 ST, 30MP, and +1 target (to your main attacks). If I understand correctly, that would get you a 350 max ST and up to 5 targets. OP? MY main problem with cleaves is they just pale in comparison when put up next to a wizard with the EK burst.

    Seems 50mp would substantially (too much?) bring up single target DPS as well as AOE. Just really feels like my THF is so much further behind than my TWF or SWF, so bump it up!

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    I just want to repeat what I've already posted elsewhere...

    I think its a fundamental design mistake to cap the AOE of THF by number of targets.

    Its supposed to be an AOE build, not just a multitarget build. You dont want to create a situation where you're optimized by pulling 2 or 3 targets at once - that's not the THF fantasy. Its not satisfying and it doesnt feel like an AOE build.

    You should be limited only by how many mobs you can facetank. If there's a huge horde of goblins all swarming around you - slice through them all!

    The balance scalar should be *how much* damage you do, not *how many mobs* you do it to. I'm fine with a percent chance to proc, I'm fine with a percentage of your total damage, as long as it affects all mobs in your AOE zone. - glancing blows as a mechanic werent too far off, it was just a question of how they procced and scaled and didnt carry certain effects that were central to your DPS.

    Its a different question than the potentially unlimited AOE of IPS because there's an inherent tradeoff for being in melee range with trying to have more monsters in your face. There's also a physical limit to how many mobs you can cram in front of you, plus mob AI makes them try to flank you which takes them out of your AOE zone too.

    Go back to the design idea of Glancing Blows, just make them % chance to proc on every attack (20% base, 20% per THF feat, movement restrictions the same) and then change all the other sundry Glancing Blow Enhancements to % Glancing Blow Damage, starting at like 20% and scaling up however you think is balanced. This would be a flat reduction to all damage done by the main attack - crits, imbues, weapon effects, etc. Basically, your Glancing Blows should look exactly like your regular hits, just scaled down proportionally. I realize statistically that's how GBs already worked, basically - again, I think it was just a question of tuning up their average damage, not scrapping the entire mechanic, and I think consistent scaled-down effects feel better than occasional full-power effects. Also making sure every attack rolled for GBs, including doublestrikes.

    I think that would achieve the right feel for THF, wading in and carving your way through hordes of mobs, and separate it better from the "pull and control" style of TWF/SWF.
    Last edited by droid327; 01-17-2020 at 10:55 PM.

  9. #289
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    Default Very important message

    Hello. I just wanted to say.
    Guess what is glancing blow percent on my barbarian - 79!
    Guess what is weapon proc chance on my barbarian - 34!
    Plus extra 10/10 on vorpal(what means 19-20).

    It means that GB adds 90% of regular damage(making it 190% - almost double). Plus almost 50 % effects.

    Overall, this is not A nerf. It is THE NERF.

    ATM barbarian can just stand still at boss and do double damage. After patch damage will be halfed.

    I am sure THF barb will become loot slot in end-game raids. Glancing blows were the only way to improve regular damage.

    It is RIP. Totally. No way.

    PS I didn't mention adrenaline from Fury destiny. Most of damage is dealt by regular hits and cleaves.
    Last edited by AirbornedChild; 01-18-2020 at 02:46 AM.

  10. #290
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    Just my opinion/feedback but i think the devs should reconsider the new strikethrough approach. The new style is good for 2 enemies then falls off from 3+. I think the original glancing blows mechanic was fine and that tweaks would have made it up to par with the other combat styles. Besides that it keeps it simple and doesnt over complicates with new feats.


    From what i gather thf suffers in the higher end content where the glancing blows falls off due to non scalling, non crit and non doublestrike. Perhaps allowing one or more of these to work with glancing blows. Also i notice that glancing blows will occur on your 4th swing if you have GTHF. Perhaps make it so ITHF = 2nd swing GTHF = 3rd swing PTHF = 4th swing.

    Also DoD was fine as it was, if really nerf needed then maybe 3 targets max or slightly longer downtime.


    Either way i prefer the old glancing blows then this new strikethrough

  11. #291
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    This is VERY interesting to me. I will have to mess around with it in order to see which fighting style I like the best. Thanks for keeping the content fresh, devs!

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I just want to repeat what I've already posted elsewhere...

    I think its a fundamental design mistake to cap the AOE of THF by number of targets.

    Its supposed to be an AOE build, not just a multitarget build. You dont want to create a situation where you're optimized by pulling 2 or 3 targets at once - that's not the THF fantasy. Its not satisfying and it doesnt feel like an AOE build.

    You should be limited only by how many mobs you can facetank. If there's a huge horde of goblins all swarming around you - slice through them all!

    The balance scalar should be *how much* damage you do, not *how many mobs* you do it to. I'm fine with a percent chance to proc, I'm fine with a percentage of your total damage, as long as it affects all mobs in your AOE zone. - glancing blows as a mechanic werent too far off, it was just a question of how they procced and scaled and didnt carry certain effects that were central to your DPS.

    Its a different question than the potentially unlimited AOE of IPS because there's an inherent tradeoff for being in melee range with trying to have more monsters in your face. There's also a physical limit to how many mobs you can cram in front of you, plus mob AI makes them try to flank you which takes them out of your AOE zone too.

    Go back to the design idea of Glancing Blows, just make them % chance to proc on every attack (20% base, 20% per THF feat, movement restrictions the same) and then change all the other sundry Glancing Blow Enhancements to % Glancing Blow Damage, starting at like 20% and scaling up however you think is balanced. This would be a flat reduction to all damage done by the main attack - crits, imbues, weapon effects, etc. Basically, your Glancing Blows should look exactly like your regular hits, just scaled down proportionally. I realize statistically that's how GBs already worked, basically - again, I think it was just a question of tuning up their average damage, not scrapping the entire mechanic, and I think consistent scaled-down effects feel better than occasional full-power effects. Also making sure every attack rolled for GBs, including doublestrikes.

    I think that would achieve the right feel for THF, wading in and carving your way through hordes of mobs, and separate it better from the "pull and control" style of TWF/SWF.
    I pretty much agree with you. They have been removing things that affect larges areas recently (EiN for instance), and I don't like the idea of trying to turn THF into some sort of mini implosion/wail. A toggle with buffs to single target dps/AOE dps would be much more appreciated. In both cases a dps increase is needed for THF and by increasing glancing blows chances and average damage you would be where you need to be (GBs should have a chance to crit in today's game ). Heck, add in an untyped damage addition to GBs and you are good to go (1d6/level scaling with MP?). Alternatively just boost up the listed MP addition for each THF considerably; current values simply aren't enough.

    Basically, it is very frustrating to watch a level 5(wizard)/15(X) eldritch burst a circle of mobs every 30 seconds while my mauler (un)happily chips away at the big bag of hitpoints.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Yes, yes, and no.

    Strikethrough targets get full Doublestrike rolls (separate from the "main" target) and weapon procs. Strikethrough currently doesn't work on Special Attacks, only regular weapon strikes; this is something we'll be monitoring through the preview process.
    Please make strikethrough work on special attacks in the next preview. People will look at it far more favorably if you take the best part of the dance of death mechanic and port it to two handed fighting. Being able to use actives on multiple targets is fun and engaging gameplay. It also becomes a proxy buff to barbarians and all of their active attacks in their enhancement trees that cost way tooooo much ap.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by john0 View Post
    Just my opinion/feedback but i think the devs should reconsider the new strikethrough approach. The new style is good for 2 enemies then falls off from 3+. I think the original glancing blows mechanic was fine and that tweaks would have made it up to par with the other combat styles. Besides that it keeps it simple and doesnt over complicates with new feats.


    From what i gather thf suffers in the higher end content where the glancing blows falls off due to non scalling, non crit and non doublestrike. Perhaps allowing one or more of these to work with glancing blows. Also i notice that glancing blows will occur on your 4th swing if you have GTHF. Perhaps make it so ITHF = 2nd swing GTHF = 3rd swing PTHF = 4th swing.

    Also DoD was fine as it was, if really nerf needed then maybe 3 targets max or slightly longer downtime.


    Either way i prefer the old glancing blows then this new strikethrough
    Main problem is low attack speed. And you cannot improve it. Still, THF works on high reaper - for 30 seconds of fury. And pure barbarian is still better than other pure builds. But only with glancing blows.

    If glancing blows would get all properties of regular hit - damage will be higher than other styles could achieve.

  15. #295
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    I agree with J-mman having a base of 100% strikethrough and having an extra 50% per feat would be way better then what you have now.

  16. #296
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    One very basic thing I don't see addressed here in the comments: THF maintaining aggro via DPS.

    Among the things glancing blows had going for them was that you literally hit every mob in range, aggroing them on you. And every swing reinforced that.

    With Strikethrough, you'll damage-aggro at most 3 targets and the rest will stream past you to hit the squishies.

    I admit, I don't do a lot of tanking (almost none, in fact), but this seems to be a major (and possibly substantially problematic) change. I personally have no idea how bad it might be. Anyone who actually does a lot of THF know?
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  17. #297
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Enhancements
    [LIST][*]Artificer Enhancements
    • Each Tier of Hand and a Half Training now grants 2% Strikethrough Chance (replacing the previous Glancing Blow component).
    [*]Barbarian Enhancements
    • Angry Arms now grants +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance.
    • Mad Munitions now grants +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance.
    • Focus Wide's on-Vorpal buff now grants 10% Strikethrough Chance in place of its previous Glancing Blow component.
    [*]Ranger Enhancements
    • Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff. These replace the previous component that allowed you to hit multiple targets directly.
    • Dance of Death's cooldown is now 30 seconds.
    [*]Rogue Enhancements
    • Improved Glancing Blows has been renamed to "Improved Second Strikes", and now grants +3/6/10% Strikethrough Chance
    • Follow-Through's Tumble buff now grants +25% Strikethrough Chance (replacing its previous ability to hit additional targets)
    [*]Racial Enhancements
    • All instances of Great Weapon Aptitude are now +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance
    • Dwarven Axe Training 1 now grants +5% Strikethrough Chance while wielding a Dwarven Waraxe in addition to its other effects
    • Dwarven Axe Training 2 now grants +5% Strikethrough Chance while wielding a Dwarven Waraxe in addition to its other effects
    • Dwarven Axe Training 3 now grants +5% Strikethrough Chance while wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and grants you Dwarven Waraxe as a Favored Weapon in addition to its other effects
    • Dwarven Axe Training 4 now grants +10% Strikethrough Chance while wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and allows you to Strikethrough while moving while wielding a Dwarven Waraxe in addition to its other effects.
    There's no ST bonuses for kensei.
    Can add 3% ST bonus at Weapon Group Specialization and/or cores.

    Any specific reason to leave fighters behind?
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  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    There's no ST bonuses for kensei.
    Can add 3% ST bonus at Weapon Group Specialization and/or cores.

    Any specific reason to leave fighters behind?
    Fair point. I am surprised they did not have that somewhere in the first preview hopefully it was just an oversight. They should also think of adding strike through to some of the possible fighter bonus feats.

  19. #299
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    Default I like the concept but, these changes are a restrictive and punishing NERF.

    Has the thought of having cleave-like abilities grant temporary “stackable” Strike through after performing cleave-like abilities? For example; While your cleave-like ability is on Cooldown, if you have two-handed fighting feat and wield a two-handed weapon, bastard sword or dwarven axe you gain uncapped strike through.

    Cleave and exalted cleave = 50% Great Cleave and avenging cleave = 100%, whirlwind attack=150% for a total of 300% after performing all three.

    Also adding the strike through on ALL special attacks must be done, if not these changes are a massive DPS loss across the board.
    Most Melee types literally click through thousands of special abilities. FORCING A PLAY STYLE to regular attack over the abilities they BUILD and invest AP into is very punishing.
    When these two-handed change goes live without glancing blows, two-handed melee lose DPS every time we perform: KI strikes, Smite, exalted smite, Eldritch tempest opportunity attack, etc..etc.. I’m not going to list every special attack in game but, I hope you consider how much of a nerf this will be before committing to any major changes, so the weakest melee style doesn’t become even weaker.
    Last edited by BLaKxDYNAMITE; 01-19-2020 at 04:54 PM.

  20. #300
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if this is still being read by the devs or if they are already working on the next patch/ nerf but just in case they still do follow this thread:

    Aren't you going a little overboard with the gear requirements for melee?

    Items
    The One Against Many 3-piece Filigree set now grants +5% Strikethrough Bonus (replacing the previous Chance at Glancing Blows).

    Before i quit, on of my pet peeves was the broken state of gear.
    You devs deceided to split up things like:
    Saves, there are now at least 3 bonus types to each save.
    Sheltering, is now broken up to prr and mrr with at least 3 bonus types to each.

    The fort requirements are through the roof, so are the to hit requirements, only a handfull dedicated str builds can pull off power attack, most other melees are regulated to precision, with the exception of the feat starved barb, who can't use the feat when raging anyway.
    And although double strike doesn't fully work on 2hf builds, it's often on gear (or sets) with other required stats.
    Now you want 2hf builds to also gear for strike through? For hitting more then a few targets? Something they can do naturaly atm? Is that fair?

    A 2hf toon used to be the first one in the room (barb speed for example) and used 2hf and cleaves to grab attention.
    Attention wich means you need every defence to be up in order to stay alive.
    Then you break the gear....
    Then you make it impossible to take hits on high reaper and impossible to properly self heal.
    And now you're nerfing 2hf damage and number of targets?

    What are you up to ssg?
    Edit, you are aware that, beides you messing up the ballance a long time ago, that you're nefing a playstyle that already has an equipment slot less then other melee playstyles and 2hf weapons in general don't reflect that. The last system that did was thunderforged crafting and that might just been to boost staff usage over dual casting sticks.
    Most of the time, 2hf weapons have the same amount of augment slots as their 1 handed counerparts.
    Last edited by lyrecono; 01-20-2020 at 01:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

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