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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    maybe cleaves can get increased threat or something?
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
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  2. #82
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
    potentially

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
    Could you explain how that ties into the larger picture of potential future changes to melee and how it would balance out this style of play across the many classes which would be affected by that change?

    What is the end goal? Are you aiming for flat melee DPS over time regardless of the source (IE: crits, doublestrike, cleave, etc)? Or is this one set of changes which will be replaced in the future to "shake things up" before another Hardcore League launches?
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
    That's interesting for SWF users that still use cleaves, at least. Sources of attack speed for THF are far and few in between, whereas it's built in SWF.

    I've used Cleaves on THF fighters to get faster attack speed than I would because I could time my cleaves to get more attacks in.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
    Let Cleaves doublestrike and be effected by adrenaline (like IPS.......) would be something we would be interested in..... additional defenses on melee feats would be nice as well since the difference in ranged and dps melee defenses are really small atm (read nonexistent for similar builds).

  6. #86
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    4 melee power is negligible. Going from 1.5->2x doesn't seem compensatory for losing glancing blow damage on a single target.

    Lets say we have....130 strength on a THF melee. That's a 60 modifier. As compared to 1.5x, 2x scale is like 30 points of extra front number damage. As compared to glances that were like 60-70% off your previously 1.5x front number.

    Seems like weak compensation, single target damage is suffering.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
    And cleaves should work with Adrenaline. That fact that it doesn't while ranged toons can still hit multiples with IPS is dumb
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    This is the first time in this game where I look around and there is no build that I want to play. Making a Ranger a weak copy of a level 1 fighter, then nerfing the Rangers ranged damaged is a huge slap to the class. Why? What makes it unique? Why would anyone play a full Tempest now?
    Not just tempests, they've killed bows. Bows sucked, they now suck worse.

    Why does the ranger class still exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  9. #89
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    Angry So THF is taking a substantial single target DPS Hit?

    With the proposed implementation of scrapping glancing blows, THF stands to lose a ton of damage versus single target enemies. The image below shows a somewhat Best-Case-Scenario vs single target. The cannon is helpless so the base is higher than normal, and glancing blows do not scale with helpless nor criticals, so this is the largest gap shown between Base hits and Glancing Blows. The glancing blow damage accounts for a significant portion of my character's damage. On attacks that produce glancing blows (3 out of the 4 attack animations) they account for over 2k damage added per swing.

    Scrapping glancing for strikethrough, neuters single target damage, while simultaneously reducing efficacy versus mobs counting greater than 2. Currently glancing blows will proc on MANY more than 2 enemies, if you're fighting 6 people, you get 6 glances, and from the image shown, that's ~12k whereas with the implementation of strikethrough you're limited to 2 enemies.

    While I understand that you may critically hit with strikethrough, the limit of only hitting 2 enemies is much more detrimental than the extra damage it brings to the table. Additionally, strikethrough has been stated to not proc on clicky/cleave attacks, whereas glancing does, so there is another source of damage lost.

    All I'm asking is for SSG to seriously reconsider the idea. I'd rather leave THF the way it is now, than to screw it up with strikethrough.

    Last edited by Ultramaetche1; 01-14-2020 at 11:59 PM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramaetche1 View Post
    With the proposed implementation of scrapping glancing blows, THF stands to lose a ton of damage versus single target enemies. The image below shows a somewhat Best-Case-Scenario vs single target. The cannon is helpless so the base is higher than normal, and glancing blows do not scale with helpless nor criticals, so this is the largest gap shown between Base hits and Glancing Blows. The glancing blow damage accounts for a significant portion of my character's damage. On attacks that produce glancing blows (3 out of the 4 attack animations) they account for over 2k damage added per swing.

    Scrapping glancing for strikethrough, neuters single target damage, while simultaneously reducing efficacy versus mobs counting greater than 2. Currently glancing blows will proc on MANY more than 2 enemies, if you're fighting 6 people, you get 6 glances, and from the image shown, that's ~12k whereas with the implementation of strikethrough you're limited to 2 enemies.

    While I understand that you may critically hit with strikethrough, the limit of only hitting 2 enemies is much more detrimental than the extra damage it brings to the table. Additionally, strikethrough has been stated to not proc on clicky/cleave attacks, whereas glancing does, so there is another source of damage lost.

    All I'm asking is for SSG to seriously reconsider the idea. I'd rather leave THF the way it is now, than to screw it up with strikethrough.

    Pretty much what ive been saying. The only situation where the new 2hf is better is against exactly 2 opponents. In literally every other it is inferior. I still think the better solution would have been to allow GB's to crit, doublestrike, and let cleaves doublestrike and work with adrenaline. Im not sure how they can get the current iteration to a workable level, maybe 150% base strike through and a bit of a buff to ST some how? or even a straight 300% strike through and trade off your st damage?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Pretty much what ive been saying. The only situation where the new 2hf is better is against exactly 2 opponents. In literally every other it is inferior. I still think the better solution would have been to allow GB's to crit, doublestrike, and let cleaves doublestrike and work with adrenaline. Im not sure how they can get the current iteration to a workable level, maybe 150% base strike through and a bit of a buff to ST some how? or even a straight 300% strike through and trade off your st damage?
    What if Strikethrough, in the absence of valid other targets, hit your main target for half? Or alternatively, strikethrough hits all qualifying targets (basically just making it glancing blows, but with full striking power)? Or boost THF stat bonus a little bit to fill in the missing damage of GB (partially done with increasing to 2x)?

  12. #92
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    Please reconsider DanceOfDeath implementation? This is my favorite build. My concerns are: longer cool down, fewer targets affected, & mechanics of movement while under its effects w/out feats in THF. I'd propose 15 second cool down, 300% strike through, and no penalty for movement. This is a loss of one target from existing implementation, so may satisfy the requirement to alter? Though, if it was left as is in current production environment I'd be happy too! Feedback here would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by amessi1; 01-15-2020 at 12:21 AM.

  13. #93
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    Default Strikethough Value on Character Sheet

    Is there anyway of seeing what your current strikethrough value is?

    There was nothing obvious on the character sheet when I tried it on Lamannia.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am potentially poking into making the cleave animation scale with your melee attack speed, would that be something you'd be interested in?
    It could lead to nerf. On live, when you are affected by some effect which is reducing of you attack speed (slow spell, reaper debuff, or many other), cleaving out from that situation is your save, because cleaving attack aren’t reduced. Also Palemaster Zombie melee build working with cleaves to avoid zombie’s 20% attack speed reduction.

  15. #95

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    After playing my Tempest build on Lammaland, I can tell you that the Dance Of Death duration and cool down times are a bad idea. (And the activation is laggy AF.). The number of targets need is enough.
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    4 melee power is negligible. Going from 1.5->2x doesn't seem compensatory for losing glancing blow damage on a single target.

    Lets say we have....130 strength on a THF melee. That's a 60 modifier. As compared to 1.5x, 2x scale is like 30 points of extra front number damage. As compared to glances that were like 60-70% off your previously 1.5x front number.

    Seems like weak compensation, single target damage is suffering.
    Those 30 points can crit though, your 60% gb can't. And it's on every hit while gbs were only on some. And DR doesn't apply to it separately.
    Last edited by droid327; 01-15-2020 at 02:43 AM.

  17. #97
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    Not happy with the triple nerf to Dance of Death, also not happy with the nerf to Follow Through. Tempest rangers and especially quarterstaff rogues don't strike me as overpowered and crowding out all other melee play styles.

    Strike through seems interesting, it is potentially a very large increase in damage against a second target; but against larger groups not so useful. Meanwhile it's entire power seems to have glimmers of good scaling and opportunities to shine, but when it comes down to doing the math this feels like this won't have enough targets to deal with lower difficulty content's swarms of enemies, and won't have enough single target damage to keep up with previous builds.

    Meanwhile the idea of cleave scaling with attackspeed is... interesting. Currently cleave (and other fixed rate attacks) can do wonders for finishing off an enemy when you're slowed/etc. On the other hand it might help cleave scale better into higher levels and with SWF builds.
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  18. #98
    Community Member lronEnema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    Not happy with the triple nerf to Dance of Death
    It's worse than that. It's a quadruple nerf - there is another feature that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet.

    If the DOD triple nerf is:
    Nerf to number of targets hit
    Nerf to cooldown
    Nerf to being able to move

    Then I would like you to consider the nerf to special attacks.

    Currently while using DOD many special attack clickies will hit all targets you are eligible under your tier of DDO

    To give an example. Activate DOD and then hit exposing strike. You will see multiple targets get the yellow blob and turn around indicating they qualify for taking sneak attack damage. Activate merciful strike and multiple targets (below 50% health and vulnerable to sneak attacks) take the extra 500 damage (scaled by reaper, melee power etc).

    Hard to quantify the effect of this nerf as it will be big for some, small for others depending upon playstyle. For most it will be very significant.

    Every time you use a special attack it will only proc on one target. You will actually lose DPS by using them when DOD is up.

    Yeah, you read that right. Using any those fun abilities will lose you DPS because each time you click them you effectively lose the extra attacks from DOD for that 'round'

    I am not aware of any developer suggestion that Tempest Ranger DPS is out of line with other classes. Certainly not to the extent that an ability that is central to the gameplay of the Tempest is going to be nerfed into the ground. The DPS loss from hitting fewer targets, activating less often and special attacks not qualifying removes most of the DPS and the nerf to being able to move makes the enhancement redundant in challenging combat.

    Please, either justify by explaining by how much tempests are out DPS'ing other melee characters or reconsider the whole DOD nerf and translate the ability so that it is equivalent in the game's new strikethrough mechanic.
    Last edited by lronEnema; 01-15-2020 at 04:56 AM.

  19. #99

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    As someone currently playing a colorful hammer-and-sickle tempest main (and generally tending towards fun, non-convenient builds), which cannot outDPS literally anyone including wizards if those go into melee, I'm definitely not amused by DoD nerf.
    Please reconsider.

  20. #100
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    This is my thoughts and conclusion after testing and some math.


    THF vs Singel target damage


    Glacial Blows (GB) that was proc on every target even main target was removed. To balance this lose we gain +0.5 Ability Score with GTHS feat (Req: 17 STR, BAB: 11, ITHF feat). First, It’s a straight nerf for all THF characters who leveling. Second, this +0.5 bonus is overall worse than additional GB on main target like was shown on Ultramaetche1 post.

    My concultion: THF will be worse vs single target fight.

    My solution: Progressive and bigger bonus with THF feat line:
    - Base (without feats): 1.50 Ability Score to damage (same as live)
    - THF feat: +0,25 Ability Score (total: 1,75) (Req: 15 STR)
    - ITHF feat: +0,25 Ability Score (total: 2,00) (Req: 17 STR, BAB: 6, THF feat)
    - GTHF feat: +0,25 Ability Score (total: 2,25) (Req: 17 STR, BAB: 11, ITHF feat)
    - PTHF feat: +0,25 Ability Score (total potential: 2,50) (Req: 26 level)

    That should solved two problems: remove nerf for THF characters who leveling, and probably will be sufficient compensate for fully developed GB THF players.

    THF vs 2 targets

    New idea will made THF king versus 2 target at once. This is probably the only good power increase after these changes. Don't get me wrong, this is very good change, and I can’t waits to play this in live servers. BUT…

    THF vs more than 2 targets

    … limitation to strike only 2 targets (sometimes 3) will made this improvement only situational. Right now when you questing, you don’t really care much about how many enemies you fight. All you do is runing from one group of monster to another. Sometimes is one target, sometimes 2 but most THF players fight against multiple enemies at once (4-10). So for most THF players this changes are consider a big NERF. GB (even with their drawbacks - low dmg, DR, no crits) are just better when you face 4 and more enemies. Additional to gain ANY value of this new mechanic you require additional target.

    My conclustion: THF will be better against 2 target, but worse against 3 or more target. And the more target you will be fighting, then this nerf will be more perceptible

    My solution: Remove Target Cap, Add additional Toggle in THF feat and adjust Strikethrough chance overall (To compensate need for additional target to gain any value)
    - Base (without feats): 30% Strikethrough chance, Remove Target Cap
    - THF feat: Active Toggle: While activated your Strikethrough attacks, do only 50% damage, but your Strikethrough chance is tripled (can’t be use simultaneously with Dance of Death). Passive: +20% Strikethrough chance (total: 50%, in Stance: 150%) (Req: 15 STR)
    - ITHF feat: Passive: +20% Strikethrough chance (total: 70%, in Stance: 210%) (Req: 17 STR, BAB: 6, THF feat)
    - GTHF feat: Passive: +30% Strikethrough chance (total: 100%, in Stance: 300%) (Req: 17 STR, BAB: 11, ITHF feat)
    - PTHF feat: Passive: +20% Strikethrough chance (total potential: 120%, in Stance: 360%) (Req: 26 level)

    That should solved problem with more targets than 2.

    Dance of Death nerf

    You double nerf this ability, without real reason. First you limit maximum number of targets from 4 to 3 (it’s 25% worse than live) . Second you triple cooldown time from 5 second to 20 second (it’s 300% longer!). That could be acceptable if Tempest build was massive overpowered compare to other melee style (like Inq is compared to other ranged style), but it’s was not (anyone have different data?). DoD was surly one of the best TWF ability, but on class (Ranger) that is not fully melee oriented because of lack of survivability in melee combat. I don’t understand this nerf. If you want remove DoD mechanic, and replace it by new one (better coding? less lag?), then do it right, without unnecessary nerfs. BTW: You can DoD and Strikethrough while moving, I tested it.

    My conclusion: Unnecessary and incomprehensible nerf, without any warning.

    My solution: Remove Target Cap, Adjust Strikethrough chance, Adjust cooldown.
    - Base: Remove Target Cap
    - Dance of Death: Strikethrough chance +30% / +130% / +220 % per Tier
    - Dance of Death: Cooldown 30 / 25 / 20 or 15 second per Tier
    - Core 18: Additional +10% Strikethrough chance with DoD
    - Core 20: Additional +20% Strikethrough chance with DoD

    That will allow (with proper other sources) to gain 300% Strikethrough chance (so 4th target) and even give chance to hit 5th target (a small one but still).
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