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  1. #41
    The Front Side Gratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    So a net nerf to DoD, going from 2/3/4 targets to 1/2/3?
    Also 2x the cooldown... oof. Less of a tempest and more of a summer breeze now. Plus TWF already has a weird (smaller than THF especially in front of you) attack hit box.

    So the only real thing going for TWF now is having a pair of differing weapon properties... TWF already being sort of bottom of the pile outside of tempest and monk.
    Happy 14th DDO.

  2. #42
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    Default A comment on Two-Handed-Fighting, with regards to fun and design philosophy.

    TL;DR at the end!

    When I heard THF changes were coming in Update 45, all I could imagine is that they would receive a buff to mass-target DPS. (I don't expect THF to compete in single-target DPS with the likes of tempest rangers, or monks, or rogues, by design).

    My train of thought follows: Tempest rangers were among the few melee builds that could consistently hit multiple targets in the satisfying way that I believe a THF should (, but don't). Warlocks can deal consistent aoe damage, TWF can deal consistent aoe damage; consistent aoe auto-attack damage is satisfying and powerful. This is a logical fit for large, two-handed weapon players (which, currently, are rare in heroics, and exceedingly rare in epics).

    I only assumed that THF - a combat style designed to hit multiple targets - would be receiving the buff to this element of performance that it so desperately needed. Not just striking through to another enemy... but hitting enemies in that large, sweeping arc that these weapon paths imply. A buff to complement the implications of THF animations themselves.

    I wasn't expecting glancing blows to be removed altogether. They weren't very powerful, but had the right idea as a matter of THF design; they were satisfying in theory. Even something as drastic as a level 1 "80% chance to produce glancing blows" would only bring the niche of THF to a level of utility in epics that it currently lacks. (This may be too powerful in heroics, but isn't so much an explicit suggestion as it is the general direction I was expecting this change to go).

    I wasn't expecting Tempest Rangers - one of the few performant melee builds extant in U44 - to be robbed of the functionality for which one rolls a tempest ranger. But I cannot speak to the strength of aoe damage on a ranger, as a design choice.

    I can speak to the strength of aoe damage on Two-Handed-Fighters. And strikethrough, as a mechanic, seems to be a step in the wrong direction for this particular combat style.

    As a melee player, these updates are, at a glance, disheartening.


    TL;DR - An excerpt from above that I believe summarizes my opinions: "I only assumed that THF - a combat style designed to hit many targets - would be receiving the buff to this element of performance that it so desperately needed. Not just striking through to another enemy... but hitting enemies in that large, sweeping arc that these weapon paths imply. A buff to complement the implications of THF animations themselves."

  3. #43
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    Overall love the changes to glancing blows, though as you're now capped to 2 or 3 targets for strike through I'd like to see cleaves get a little love too.

    Please reconsider the massive nerf to DOD, Tempest rangers have been a solid B tier build for a long time but they haven't been dominating in well over a year. raising the cooldown while also reducing the amount of targets hit is not good.

    If DoD is reworked to use strikethrough (resulting in less total targets hit) it should not having an increased duration to cooldown ratio, Also I think letting the buff proc even if the initial attack misses either do to accuracy or just a lag miss would be enough to balance out the loss of targets.

  4. #44
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Why are you nerfing DoD? Max 4 target -> max 3 target and ADDITIONAL 300% longer cooldown from 5 sec -> 20 second. There was someting wrong with this ability?
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  5. #45
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    I want to suggest a thing for the THF fighting style that actually helps fight groups.

    Make every fourth swing in the THF animation an actual cleave. No [w]s, no extras, just one big swing against any number of monsters facing you.

    This would be a huge boon to fighting swathes of mobs without buffing their single-target DPS.
    It would also only work while standing still, which is a limiting factor, but being slow to move and hard-swinging sounds like something you'd expect the THF fighting style to do.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    I want to suggest a thing for the THF fighting style that actually helps fight groups.

    Make every fourth swing in the THF animation an actual cleave. No [w]s, no extras, just one big swing against any number of monsters facing you.

    This would be a huge boon to fighting swathes of mobs without buffing their single-target DPS.
    It would also only work while standing still, which is a limiting factor, but being slow to move and hard-swinging sounds like something you'd expect the THF fighting style to do.
    I agree that a THF's auto-attacks should have some draw over other melees, other damage dealers. And mass-hitting in an arc in front of you is the logical choice. Something to match that largest swinging animation. This would also correct the tendancy to jitter the animation, as following through for that swing will be worth the aoe damage.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kielbasa View Post
    I used to play a lot of tempest before inquisitive came out. It is fun to play once you get to level 12 and pick up dance of death. The changes to dance of death are going to gut tempests. People hardly play them now. The double nerf to number of targets from 4 to 3 and the uptime nerf from 20 seconds out of every 30, if lag doesn't make you miss your target, to 10 second out of every 30 is huge. The buff to spring attack does not make up for the nerf. I hope you look to reduce the enhancement costs of the tree especially the T5 costs to help alleviate this or just roll back the proposed nerf.
    This... is it possible my THF PDK Cleric will be more melee effective than my dex built twin scimi Tempest Ranger?

    I've only just finished the ranger (or at least got his Heroic Completionist and Pally lives) and was finally starting to enjoy playing a Ranger in the lvl 20-30 range again after a very long time stuck in 1-20.....

    Slight trepidation being felt at this point.....

    Coit out :P
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  8. #48
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    So a net nerf to DoD, going from 2/3/4 targets to 1/2/3?
    With double the cooldown timer...
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    With double the cooldown timer...
    And no benefit while moving

  10. #50
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    Overall I like this, the only issue I have is with the changes to tempest. This is already an underutilized class and build and doubling the cooldown on something that already winds up not going into effect thanks to lag or a mob moving at the last second while also dropping the target limit seems way harsh. Would perhaps a better change be keep it the 3 targets, only while dual wielding, and treat it as an action boost style effect or even permanent uptime via a stance toggle that is unique to certain other toggles?

  11. #51
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caarb View Post
    And no benefit while moving
    Wow, triple nerf. Bye bye tempests.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  12. #52
    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Regarding cleaves:
    Every hit can proc Strikethrough?

    I mean, if i have 6 mobs around me, use cleave and successful hit 3, i'll have a chance to proc Strikethrough on another 2-3 mobs for every hit on cleave?
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kielbasa View Post
    I used to play a lot of tempest before inquisitive came out. It is fun to play once you get to level 12 and pick up dance of death. The changes to dance of death are going to gut tempests. People hardly play them now. The double nerf to number of targets from 4 to 3 and the uptime nerf from 20 seconds out of every 30, if lag doesn't make you miss your target, to 10 second out of every 30 is huge. The buff to spring attack does not make up for the nerf. I hope you look to reduce the enhancement costs of the tree especially the T5 costs to help alleviate this or just roll back the proposed nerf.

    We knew a nerf to melee Ranger was coming from Discord.... -sigh-

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Correct! Think of them like a whole entire other attack. It can crit, doublestrike, your weapon procs will work, etc. Your basic attacks can simply strike more targets now.



    Full damage.
    Why not just call it 'Doublestrike' and avoid all the confusion?

    -THF now works just like TWF- correct? Except, wait a minute, it is now worse against a single target?
    Last edited by Sho-sa; 01-14-2020 at 07:13 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    By default, you can only Strikethrough while standing still.
    I tried WoW back in the day, before Pandas and all that jazz. I wanted to give it a shot and see what the fuss was about. You can't move while attacking in that game (at least you couldn't at the time - I haven't tried it in years). Moving while attacking is the best part of DDO.

    I get that you don't want people to increase their attack rate by twitch fighting, but why not just FIX THE COMBAT ANIMATIONS so that you get the same attack speed whether you're moving or standing still?

    The new idea of Strikethrough is pretty interesting (I don't know if it's good or not, but it's at least interesting), but making people stand still is not fun. I'm not a fan of this part.

    Edit: the worst insult in the bunch -
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    • Ranger Enhancements
      • Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff. These replace the previous component that allowed you to hit multiple targets directly.
      • Dance of Death's cooldown is now 30 seconds.

    Stand Very Still of Death Because Dancing Will Prevent Your Strikethrough.
    Last edited by HungarianRhapsody; 01-14-2020 at 07:14 PM.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballrus View Post
    Regarding cleaves:
    Every hit can proc Strikethrough?

    I mean, if i have 6 mobs around me, use cleave and successful hit 3, i'll have a chance to proc Strikethrough on another 2-3 mobs for every hit on cleave?
    At the very least cleaves should get double strike. I'm not sold on the changes, they still feel a little underpowered vs where we were. What percent of our damage is .5 our stat mod? I am hard pressed to believe that its 38%+ of our base damage that gbs were. These changes are a need at 4+ targets which is very normal for ddo. And the dev's still haven't addressed melee survivability much at all, my ranged tons with no ap invested in defensive talents get 85+% of the statistical defenses of my melee who spend points on defensive talents but lack ranged attacks, the literal ultimate defense in ddo. Gear creep has made many defensive talents less valuable.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]Ranger Enhancements
    • Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff. These replace the previous component that allowed you to hit multiple targets directly.
    • Dance of Death's cooldown is now 30 seconds.
    [/LIST]
    Tempest rangers aren't top of the heap, they might not even be a top 10 build after the THF and paladin buffs. Nerfing something middle of the road is, silly.

    If you need to lower the targets lower the targets, but don't change the cooldown.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  18. #58
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    Strikethrough is not working AT ALL on Lamannia with a bear druid. In the + tab on the character sheet it still states glancing blows and there's no display anywhere of your strikethrough chance, but I'm not hitting secondary targets EVER.

    This kinda sucks since I'm ALSO not doing glancing blows!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho-sa View Post
    Why not just call it 'Doublestrike' and avoid all the confusion?

    -THF now works just like TWF- correct?
    No, it only affects a non target mob. And without special enhancements it maxes out at 1 extra hit and doesn't apply to special attacks (not sure if 2wf doesn't get its bonus on special attacks or not). Seems rather underpowered to me at this point, 2wf gets 100% uptime of its extra attack, 2hf does not if there is no second target. It also requires you being in range to take hits from 2 mobs to get your damage unlike 2wf. The strike through chance on base 2hf feats need an increase imo to be worth it.
    Last edited by J-mann; 01-14-2020 at 07:25 PM.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Strikethrough is not working AT ALL on Lamannia with a bear druid. In the + tab on the character sheet it still states glancing blows and there's no display anywhere of your strikethrough chance, but I'm not hitting secondary targets EVER.

    This kinda sucks since I'm ALSO not doing glancing blows!
    Thanks, we'll get that fixed ASAP.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

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