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  1. #261
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    Default Thief-Acrobat Core 6

    The Thief-Acrobat core 6 enhancement allows two-handed attacks to hit two enemies instead of just one. The change to giving 25% strikethrough seems like quite a large nerf considering it only lasts for 6 seconds. I'd like to see it boosted to 100% since that's essentially what it is now, or made a passive 25% and removing the tumble requirement.
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  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Of course :P However, Strikethrough is a functional rebuild of the now-depreciated Combat_BaseAttack_MaxTargets system, which necessitated a redesign of every ability that used it. Luckily, this only ended up being about 3 abilities (5 total effects if you'd like more details).

    I don't really know what you're asking for, here - if you'd like us to not write new things or iterate, you're asking us to just ship what was on Lamannia, which seems like the opposite of what you're advocating for. New stuff isn't actually that difficult to implement in DDO - in fact, sometimes modifying legacy code is a lot more complex :P



    Staging a Lamannia is a lot of work on our end for a lot of people and disrupts our ability to quickly iterate on major designs when things are still in early stages of development when things tend to change rapidly. That being said, player feedback and testing is valuable to us, which is why we try our best to put out at least one preview per major update.
    That first bullet is exactly what I was talking about when I said things are already too far to have major changes (new prototypes / new algorithms), we're now pretty much stuck with the new Strikethrough system, meaning we're stuck with that being used in DoD and THF. In theory you could throw it out, but that would necessitate a new new function be built, possibly from scratch to replace what you were going to do with the new one, and you guys already have too much to do.

    My request specifically and generally. Generally far more communication with the playerbase during the modeling and prototyping phase of changes, the spitball ideas at a board part. This is because players actually play the product and have discovered all the strengths, weakness's and work-around's that exist. This can prevent what happened here as the ship could be righted before it hits the storm.

    Dev: Hey guys we're doing a THF buff but it's super secret
    Players: YAY, finially, this is awesome, THF is finally going to be useful again, what are you changing again?
    Dev: Can't tell you, it's super secret
    Players: Ok we'll build up anticipation that we can do THF and feel useful again.
    ~Months Later~
    Dev: Hey guys, we're just about done our update, here is a preview of what we *intend* to do.
    Players: Ok lets see .... *** IS THIS! They nerfed THF, and ... what the hell nobody said anything about nerfing Tempest *firestorm happens*

    All that could of been avoided with simple communication like "hey the idea we settled on was StrikeThrough and we're gonna use these values", or "while updating the attack code for StrikeThrough we thought Dance of Death was a little too powerful, how do you guys feel about that". You would of got the same feedback, but in a far more constructive and less damaging matter. Players would of told you that Tempest Ranger is actually working fine and that DoD was a major component of that class's DPS tree. We understand that you want to nerf those taking 5 levels of Ranger to abuse DoD on other class's, and some sort of adjustment that kept Tempest solid but prevented abuse would of been found. And all those updates could of been treated this way with the result being a package the community felt involved in producing instead of the community feeling the developers just pushing stuff onto them.

    Specifically for several things.

    Don't mess with Dance of Death on Ranger, for those with 12~20 levels of Ranger it's amazing. These is some abuse going on with those doing 13 Rogue, 5 Tempest, 2 Monk, but that's a much bigger problem with multi-classing to get Tier 5's. Practically every broken build in this game can be traced to someone abusing a T5 outside of it's intended class.

    THF needs a speed increase, it's performance problem is centered around attacks per minute. I play all four of the melee fighting styles and by far the best is Single Weapon Fighting, followed by Two Weapon Fighting and Sword + Shield with Two Handed Being at the far back. Attacking faster allows more crits, doublestrikes, effect procs to happen while also killing the monster faster. THF animations simply take too long to play out, notice another poster shows how dramatic an increase animation canceling gives them. We're talking straight 20% damage increase by simply moving a little to cancel out the third swing and repeat the first two swings. That is your root cause right there, fix that and many of the balance issues will start to go away. Give all animations the same swing time, then bump up the attack speed by 15~20% (make it part of the combat style feats). THF will still do less single target damage then the rest, but at least people won't laugh at it.

    If we're stuck with a Strikethrough system in place of Glancing blows, then you need to radically alter how it works. Instead of a chance to get a second target, make it a chance to proc an extra attack on *any* target in the arc. Meaning a THF Fighter / Paladin / Barb swinging a Great Sword would have a ~30% chance to proc a full second attack on all targets in that arc past the first (this might be hard to do). Or keep the GB style percentage damage but allow that attack roll to crit, possibly with a lower multiplier. These are just ideas being spit-balled while I'm on break, specific numeric values would have to be tuned for balance.


    About the legacy code, trust me I know the pain. Right now I am responsible (amongst other things) for supporting a bunch of legacy applications written in ... Java 1.6 ... running on an older Weblogic 11g platform. The people who wrote this stuff are long gone, their replacements are long gone, there is like two people left who learned from the replacements, and there is practically zero documentation. I write most of the automatons code that goes from source to artifact to platform deployment. BTW these applications are responsible for transactions with an average value of 1.5 million USD so mistakes have extreme repercussions. So if I seem harsh it's because I'm a peer in this field.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What's actually super weird - and I didn't know this until I overheard some other designers doing a deep dive on Glancing Blows - is that if a Crit delivers a Glancing Blow, that Glancing Blow actually does scale and become proportionally stronger. Wild, right? I've played a lot of Greataxe Fighter/Paladins and only just now learned that this week.
    On the primary target this would make sense as glancing blows are treated as additional damage on that strike. The amount of additional damage scales as a percentage of the original hit, so if the original hit does 500, the GB @60% does 300, if the hit does 3500 (crit) then the GB would do 2100. It's the only thing that let THF even be remotely relevant on boss fights. Of course double strikes don't produce GB's and most high end melee builds sit around 90~100% DS rate. The splash damage on the other hand is calculated as through it was a percentage of a regular hit and on higher end fights (Reaper / Epic) monsters have so much HP that it's better for melee to burn them down one at a time then try to cleave them down together. Monsters with 10% HP deal the same damage as monsters with 100% HP. Monsters with 0% HP deal 100% less damage then monsters with 1% HP.

    Having said that, I don't think this works on Prod. I'll check it later tonight after I get home, should be **** easy to check.
    Last edited by palladin9479; 01-17-2020 at 04:04 PM.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    "while updating the attack code for StrikeThrough we thought Dance of Death was a little too powerful, how do you guys feel about that".
    That's kind of what Lamannia notes are. Nothing here is set in stone. That's why we do the preview in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hipparan View Post
    The Thief-Acrobat core 6 enhancement allows two-handed attacks to hit two enemies instead of just one. The change to giving 25% strikethrough seems like quite a large nerf considering it only lasts for 6 seconds. I'd like to see it boosted to 100% since that's essentially what it is now, or made a passive 25% and removing the tumble requirement.
    Right now Strikethrough caps at 300%, which would mean that with the THF feats you'd be hitting that cap - which makes the earlier enhancements in TA useless. We can keep tinkering with the number to make sure it's worth it, ideally we do keep the tumble mechanic as tumbling is a fun aspect of TA that helps the tree feel unique.
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  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Staging a Lamannia is a lot of work on our end for a lot of people and disrupts our ability to quickly iterate on major designs when things are still in early stages of development when things tend to change rapidly.
    I don't doubt that a single bit. But that doesn't justify limiting trying out the latest Lamannia build to just 2+ days.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That being said, player feedback and testing is valuable to us, which is why we try our best to put out at least one preview per major update.
    The longer Lamannia is open, the more player feedback that can be given.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

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  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What's actually super weird - and I didn't know this until I overheard some other designers doing a deep dive on Glancing Blows - is that if a Crit delivers a Glancing Blow, that Glancing Blow actually does scale and become proportionally stronger. Wild, right? I've played a lot of Greataxe Fighter/Paladins and only just now learned that this week.
    This 100% does not occur on live servers, and never has as far as I'm aware. If this is true then either the developers literally ARE playing a different game than the rest of us, or that specific code section is not functional.
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  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That's kind of what Lamannia notes are. Nothing here is set in stone. That's why we do the preview in the first place.



    Right now Strikethrough caps at 300%, which would mean that with the THF feats you'd be hitting that cap - which makes the earlier enhancements in TA useless. We can keep tinkering with the number to make sure it's worth it, ideally we do keep the tumble mechanic as tumbling is a fun aspect of TA that helps the tree feel unique.
    Question,

    What level range and difficulty are these changes being adapted to?

    I say that because different ranges and difficulties produce radically different results. Glancing Blows is actually very useful in Heroics, so much that THF is probably the best melee fighting style there. This is because monsters don't have nearly as much HP and are dead within a few swings, meaning a handful of GB's splashed around is enough to take out a group of mobs. As we enter epics or reaper difficulty, monster HP / defenses grow such that GB's stop being a significant part of the monsters HP bar and single target damage becomes far better.

    In that regard, Strikethrough at such a low level of power ends up being a huge Nerf to THF in Heroics and only a moderate Nerf to THF in Reaper / Epics.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    In that regard, Strikethrough at such a low level of power ends up being a huge Nerf to THF in Heroics and only a moderate Nerf to THF in Reaper / Epics.
    Ah, as a reminder, the intention is to not reduce single target damage at all, which is why we're iterating on THF :) It's not meant to be a nerf at all.
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  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Right now Strikethrough caps at 300%, which would mean that with the THF feats you'd be hitting that cap
    This is either wrong, or the notes on page one are wrong. Assuming a barbarian/rogue build of some sort, your strikethrough would look something like this.

    20% base
    20% THF
    20% ITHF
    20% GTHF
    20% PTHF
    20% cumulative barbarian enhancements
    35% cumulative rogue enhancments
    10% twists from Fury of the Wild
    5% filigree

    For a grand total of 170% strikethrough. Not even remotely close to the 300% cap.
    Last edited by Fivetigers33; 01-17-2020 at 04:23 PM.
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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    This is either wrong, or the notes on page one are wrong. Assuming a barbarian/rogue build of some sort, your strikethrough would look something like this.

    20% base
    20% THF
    20% ITHF
    20% GTHF
    20% PTHF
    20% cumulative barbarian enhancements
    35% cumulative rogue enhancments
    10% twists from Fury of the Wild
    5% filigree

    For a grand total of 170% strikethrough. Not even remotely close to the 300% cap.
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
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  11. #271
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    The more and more I think about this the more I'm not sure of how much of a buff this will really be in practice. Just because for groups THF already has lots of cleaves for multiple targets. And cleaves obviously don't benefit from this strikethrough change. So they're already getting a lot the benefit of full attacks on multi targets on live already just by cycling cleaves constantly (granted cleaves can't doublestrike, but are losing glancing blows). And I already am someone who cleaves all the time. I wanted to test on Thursday after work but sadly it was down before I could get a chance to hop on Lam.

    I've primarily played as THF since forever, and yeah as others have said THF's poor attack speed compared to other styles really is its primary issue and afaik that isn't being altered. I get that THF should be worse at single target, but I don't know if these buffs are going to enough to keep it from still being the worst melee fighting style.

    It will be a solid buff if not cleaving and you have 2-3 targets around, sure. But if it's now better than cleave for that size of mobs you may just see less cleave use absorbing a lot of the effects of this buff rather than a big additive AoE buff.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    That makes more sense, thank you for the clarification. I think only Dwarf Dwarven Axe builds even have a prayer of hitting cap.
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  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    This is a totally arbitrary number though. 2hf was already weak and the new mechanic does nothing to improve it. Increase base strike through to 100% with the first feat and 50% for every there after. Strike through needs to also apply to special attacks just like ips and 2wf do. If you think this is remotely OP lol you haven't seen sorcs lately have you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    Not to mention the ap cost for the st enhancements is insultingly high

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    So is strikethrough actually capped, as in the value can't go above 200% even if other factors are applied?

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread (page12) %400 is very easily done in short bursts, %300 more consistently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Blargh, 3 targets = 200% not 300%, my bad. You're correct. Cap is 200% or 3 targets.
    Oh and is the dev team planning to make cleaves useful again? Not only do they require power attack which dev's made useless by ac and base damage bloat, they just got a heavy nerf with crummy strike through. 2hf is the bottom of the pile AND melee, I dont see why the dev's think such tepid "buffs" are nearly sufficient.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Oh and is the dev team planning to make cleaves useful again? Not only do they require power attack which dev's made useless by ac and base damage bloat, they just got a heavy nerf with crummy strike through. 2hf is the bottom of the pile AND melee, I dont see why the dev's think such tepid "buffs" are nearly sufficient.
    I'm confused why you think a flat +10-16-22 damage is a waste of a feat. PA is a must take on THF builds not for cleave but for damage output.
    Base 5
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  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I'm confused why you think a flat +10-16-22 damage is a waste of a feat. PA is a must take on THF builds not for cleave but for damage output.
    Base 5
    +3 Racial
    +3 Ravager tier 1
    x2
    Good luck hitting anything with your effective-30+ to hit. Precision is all but required in epic/legendary play due to mob ac bloat. Not to mention the fort bypass with the fort bloat in the recent packs....

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Good luck hitting anything with your effective-30+ to hit. Precision is all but required in epic/legendary play due to mob ac bloat. Not to mention the fort bypass with the fort bloat in the recent packs....
    This isn't really the forum for it but most melee I play have 130+ STR and accuracy items, to hit is a non-issue on r10 sharn.
    I wish people would stop conflating "I can't do/don't have the thing" with "the thing is broken and the game design is bad"
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  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    This is a totally arbitrary number though. 2hf was already weak and the new mechanic does nothing to improve it. Increase base strike through to 100% with the first feat and 50% for every there after. Strike through needs to also apply to special attacks just like ips and 2wf do.
    Some version of this is how the THF pass needs to be implemented if its going to actually bring THF on board as melee dps
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