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  1. #221
    Community Member catfumaster's Avatar
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    So many salty ranger fans. DoD was OP from inception and needs a decent nerf. They can't try and make THF the best AOE melee and leave DoD as is. Worth noting Tempest still gets more attacks per target at double the item effects and at a higher rate for crit damage. Max targets down and cooldown increase = good, but standing still and no special attacks (for all strike through) = bad. Also DoD needs to be a buff not an attack, that was always a silly limitation for the sole purpose of easier coding.

    And one more I will cry for strike through or glancing blows or whatever option they end up with to be a stance I can turn off. I don't want to be forced into standing around doing nothing or having to completely screw myself by changing out weapons and losing sentience and the like just because a Vengeance Reaper is hanging out in a group of mobs.

  2. #222
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DANTEIL View Post
    I'm not an expert player by any measure, but my main character is currently a lvl30 THF barbarian that I've enjoyed playing very much. Reading this thread is a bit confusing, but I guess it's good that my single-target damage will be going up. However, I'm unsure on what's happening with cleaves -- will they become obsolete? And also: so much of the recent DDO quest design has involved mobs and mobs of enemies, so it is absolutely crucial to have effective AOE (especially has a mostly solo player, as I am) -- but now the number of targets that I'll be able to damage (effectively) seems like it's going down?
    the best info right now is that single-target damage will go down in the current proposal, but the devs don't want it to so they have pledged to make more changes. since we still don't know what specific scenarios the devs are balancing around let alone what those "more changes" entail, we have no way of knowing if your personal single-target damage will go up or down in the iterated changes

    cleaves are definitely getting worse (devs have stated this could potentially change but have not pledged to do anything). under the current proposal they are inarguably obsolete against exactly 2 targets, but since...

    your auto attack's damage to large groups of mobs is also definitely getting worse, cleaves will still be valuable there. devs have stated AoE is the design goal for THF so it doesn't make sense they would implement changes making any part of THF AoE worse, but since they haven't addressed this point directly your guess is good as anyone's if that's what we'll end up with

    .

    overall i am much less eager to TR into a THF build i had planned, but i think that while the net effect is negative at L30 it is not strongly negative

  3. #223
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catfumaster View Post
    So many salty ranger fans. DoD was OP from inception and needs a decent nerf. They can't try and make THF the best AOE melee and leave DoD as is. Worth noting Tempest still gets more attacks per target at double the item effects and at a higher rate for crit damage. Max targets down and cooldown increase = good, but standing still and no special attacks (for all strike through) = bad. Also DoD needs to be a buff not an attack, that was always a silly limitation for the sole purpose of easier coding.

    And one more I will cry for strike through or glancing blows or whatever option they end up with to be a stance I can turn off. I don't want to be forced into standing around doing nothing or having to completely screw myself by changing out weapons and losing sentience and the like just because a Vengeance Reaper is hanging out in a group of mobs.
    of course they can. give THF a base strikethrough of 100% with +100% per feat, have weapon effects be scaled 2x when THF, presto, THF is the best AoE in melee

  4. #224
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catfumaster View Post
    So many salty ranger fans. DoD was OP from inception and needs a decent nerf.
    Don't you find it sad that to even make tempests a decent B class build they NEEDED an OP enhancement like DoD? But you're okay with nerfing it along with archer's focus and precise shot? This leaves rangers as a flavor build now.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

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  5. #225
    Community Member Rykka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Don't you find it sad that to even make tempests a decent B class build they NEEDED an OP enhancement like DoD? But you're okay with nerfing it along with archer's focus and precise shot? This leaves rangers as a flavor build now.
    Steel stated in discord that Tempest ranked better in single target dps. I'm pretty sure his magic dps measuring box is wrong, but that's because I see a lot more Assasines instakilling things rather than dpsing it and still doing about the same damage as Tempest when they DPS. And monks can instakill as well as almost always cause helplessness through their CC.

    Tempest by comparison doesn't do any of that. With the DoD nerf it won't be doing much of anything.
    People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.

  6. #226
    Community Member blackzombie's Avatar
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    Default my opinion

    I didn't like this strikethrough thing, and here is why:


    To me, THF is the most fun to play style, exactly because of the fluidity of the movements. The cleaves seens like an extension of the first swing, and nothing is more rewarding than dancing around with cleaves in a wave of mobs.

    So, this new stuff just kills what i like to do, move around and cleave a bunch of mobs.

    I can be wrong of course, but it seens that THF with this thing will need to stand still taking everything to the head to kill faster.

    If so, this is just pointless to me, i'll keep cleaving around making the monsters to look like a bunch of fools instead of using this.

    to give a suggestion, just give us a lot of melee power.

    Remember, we are Two Handed Fighters and we are easy to please. Just give us a bigger weapon

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  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    Steel stated in discord that Tempest ranked better in single target dps. I'm pretty sure his magic dps measuring box is wrong, but that's because I see a lot more Assasines instakilling things rather than dpsing it and still doing about the same damage as Tempest when they DPS. And monks can instakill as well as almost always cause helplessness through their CC.

    Tempest by comparison doesn't do any of that. With the DoD nerf it won't be doing much of anything.
    The board they throw darts at to determine DPS is definitely wrong. I actually know for a fact that they do not know what they are doing, I can't give details because secrecy and all that, but the devs know a helluva lot less about this games spaghetti mechanics then they pretend to. They inherited this code from someone else, and that someone else didn't document a lot of stuff very well and what they did document is frequently wrong.

    That is why they thing doing really stupid stuff like nerfing DoD is a good idea.

  8. #228
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Any chance you could modify this item to work with Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes?

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodrage_Chrism

  9. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackzombie View Post
    I can be wrong of course, but it seens that THF with this thing will need to stand still taking everything to the head to kill faster.
    You do not need to stand still to effectively use Strikethrough. Unless you did not take the THF feats, which allow you to Strikethrough while moving.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  10. #230
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Hello, all! Glancing Blows game-wide have been replaced with a new mechanic: Strikethrough. While wielding a Two-Handed Weapon, or while wielding a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe in your main hand and a Shield, Orb, Rune Arm, or nothing in your offhand, your attacks can Strikethrough. When your attacks can Strikethrough, every attack has a chance ("Strikethrough Chance") to hit an additional target. By default, players have a 20% Strikethrough Chance (which can be improved through feats and enhancements), and cannot Strikethrough while moving. If your Strikethrough Chance is over 100%, you are guaranteed to hit a second target (if in range) on your attacks, with a chance to hit a third. By default, you can only Strikethrough while standing still.

    Feats
    [LIST][*]Combat Style Feats
    • The Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% Strikethrough Chance. You can now Strikethrough while moving. You also gain a +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. For the purpose of this feat, you are considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while using a Two-Handed Melee Weapon (not including Handwraps). You are also considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while wielding a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in your main hand and a Shield, Orb, Rune Arm, or Nothing in your off-hand. You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape."
    • The Improved Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% additional Strikethrough Chance. You also gain a +4 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting."
    • The Greater Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% additional Strikethrough Chance. You also gain a +6 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. While using a Two Handed Weapon (not including Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe), your Ability Score bonus to damage improves to 2x the Ability Score you use for damage. "
    • The Perfect Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: You gain +20% Strikethrough Chance. You also gain a +10 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. "
    [*]Class Specific Feats
    [LIST]


    Enhancements
    [LIST]
    [*]Barbarian Enhancements
    • Angry Arms now grants +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance.
    • Mad Munitions now grants +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance.
    • Focus Wide's on-Vorpal buff now grants 10% Strikethrough Chance in place of its previous Glancing Blow component.




    Miscallaneous
    • Fury of the Wild Destiny Enhancements
      • Malicious Weapons now grants +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance.
      • Wild Weapons now grants +1/3/5% Strikethrough Chance.
      • While Unbridled Fury is active, you gain a +100% bonus to Strikethrough Chance (replacing the previous Glancing Blow component).
    • Items
      • The One Against Many 3-piece Filigree set now grants +5% Strikethrough Bonus (replacing the previous Chance at Glancing Blows).


    Conclusion: Strikethrough will help give THF it's own unique niche as an AoE focused melee combat style. We hope you enjoy it when you check it out in-game!

    Known Issues
    • Perfect Two Handed Fighting doesn't currently grant any Melee Power

    why am i spending 4 feats to consistently hit a 2nd target?
    and another 20% (30 after a vorpal?)chance if i spend 8 enh and 6 ED points in a bad ED?

    Wouldn't i be better of picking up cleaves and using the LD destiny?

    anyway, i tested this out on a lv 30 toon (lv 20 horc barb, 10 epic), the damage is better with just the cleaves, i just hit more targets at the same time at a higher rate and overall doesn't require you to bend over backwards wasting enh&ED points on the (remote) chance of hitting a third target?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    why am i spending 4 feats to consistently hit a 2nd target?
    and another 20% (30 after a vorpal?)chance if i spend 8 enh and 6 ED points in a bad ED?

    Wouldn't i be better of picking up cleaves and using the LD destiny?

    anyway, i tested this out on a lv 30 toon (lv 20 horc barb, 10 epic), the damage is better with just the cleaves, i just hit more targets at the same time at a higher rate and overall doesn't require you to bend over backwards wasting enh&ED points on the (remote) chance of hitting a third target?
    Yup, 2hf needs to start with100% (50% untrained, 50% per feat seems a good place to start, not this 20 rubbish) and go up from there. It also needs to apply to special attacks JUST LIKE IPS AND 2WF. Maybe if it's in caps dev's will get it? And yes the enhancements are grossly overpriced for what they do. 5% for 1ap might be acceptable, 5 for 3 is insane.
    Last edited by J-mann; 01-16-2020 at 09:00 PM.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    You do not need to stand still to effectively use Strikethrough. Unless you did not take the THF feats, which allow you to Strikethrough while moving.
    Not getting strike through on special attacks whereas ips and 2wf works with them is bad change this please.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    You gain the ability to Strikethrough while moving by taking the first Two Handed Fighting feat, as it says in the OP.

    This matches Live, where you cannot Glancing Blow while moving until you take the first Two Handed Fighting feat. I do not know why the ancients never put this in the tooltip for that feat, but it's been that way for an extremely long time. We're keeping it because it provides incentive to take the feat line and helps curb the power of Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe users in Single Weapon Fighting style (though Dwarves can bypass this with enhancement investment).
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but glancing blows didn't used to work while moving. This was also how you would avoid doing AoE damage, when you didn't want to. Having the option to not deal AoE damage is very important in a lot of situations, so I hope you have a solution for this.

    Taking away glancing blows also reduces cleave damage. Usually you wouldn't just stand there and auto attack for AoE damage. You would use different cleave attacks and because of their low cooldown, you wouldn't actually attack that much. I don't know how the math works out here, but this might actually reduce AoE damage in general. It also means, that it is even more important to keep moving in some way to maximize single target DPS, which is at least very annoying.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Cross-posting this from Severlin's thread for people who might have not seen it yet:

    While you are looking at this, please pay attention to THF KOTC builds -- this update is being billed as "fixes" for both, yet with the KOTC core damage historically proccing on all glancing blows, this hits them especially hard, arguably harder than other THF class builds that have higher base dmg. And this in an update meant to ENHANCE those two styles (KOTC and THF).

    Thanks!

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Don't you find it sad that to even make tempests a decent B class build they NEEDED an OP enhancement like DoD? But you're okay with nerfing it along with archer's focus and precise shot? This leaves rangers as a flavor build now.
    Also, isn't it interesting that you have to be a ranger to be one of the best races, Aasimar Scourge? That was sold to you as a key part of the Ultimate Fan Bundle for the rloft expansion ($129 US), or for a pile of points later, and isn't available via VIP subscription? And now, since Rangers will suck at everything they're supposed to be good at, you'll probably want to remove the ranger level(s), which just happens to cost a lot of points?

    Yeah, "interesting".

  16. #236
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Default Correct me if I'm wrong

    The THF feat line takes you to %100 ST.

    Dance of Death no longer cares about your weapon style and grants for a short period %200 ST

    Unbridled Fury grants +%100 ST

    There are a handful of effects that will be applying smaller bonuses, it seems quite manageable to get over %400 ST.


    Steelstar said over 300% wasn't currently possible so maybe I missed something because it seems quite easy.
    Last edited by Bloodskittle; 01-17-2020 at 01:19 AM.
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  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    The THF feat line takes you to %100 ST.

    Dance of Death no longer cares about your weapon style and grants for a short period %200 ST

    Unbridled Fury grants +%100 ST

    There are a handful of effects that will be applying smaller bonuses, it seems quite manageable to get over %400 ST.


    Steelstar said over 300% wasn't currently possible so maybe I missed something because it seems quite easy.
    Nice catch (unless for some insane reason the epic 100% doesn't stack with the 100% from feats). I wonder if he was thinking the 200% from DOD couldn't stack with the THF line because DOD is (currently) restricted to TWF style, but you're right, there's nothing in Coco's descriptions to prevent stacking. Oh, the irony is delicious: Tempest TWF would stink with the new DOD (and 1st tier of DOD would do nothing if you're TWF!), but a THF Ranger Tempest with DOD is now tops for Strikethrough. Whoops?

  18. #238
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Default Strikethrough cap

    I did see that Steelstar said that ST was capped at 3 targets but I wonder if that is because he thought that the limit was under 300%.

    I also don't think that my catch is unbalanced. Strikethrough seems like a good mechanic I just think it needs to be implemented well.

    Here is my suggestion of progression by feats:

    No THF: Hit 1 target base, ST % to hit more targets

    First THF feat: Hit 1 targets base, ST % to hit more targets, ST works while moving (current proposal)

    Improved THF feat: Hit 2 targets base, ST % to hit more targets

    Greater THF feat: Hit 3 targets base, ST % to hit more targets.

    Perfect THF feat: Hit 3 targets base, Proceed with current proposal


    Two handed fighting melee's won't be OP with those changes, they will be functioning well and in an enjoyable manner, its also the simplest implementation I've read on the forums here.

    My catch of %400 ST is for a very short moment and is essentially a little power boost for when you encounter too many enemies. In live play it will feel Strong enough to build to but it won't feel OP. You're a melee after all and things hurt you.
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  19. #239
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Default Cleave builds

    So I've seen some talk about cleave, here is my 10 cents.

    The issue with cleave that THF players have is that the animation is slow and interrupts the attack animation. It also cannot doublestrike.

    Here is my suggestion:
    REMOVE the current cleave animation and ADD a weapon trail effect to the current attack that is in motion
    (if none player makes a simple attack with a weapon trail as though they had left clicked).

    Allow cleave to doublestrike.

    Cleave hits all enemies in a defined arc relative to the power of the cleave regardless of ST% (roughly how it currently operates on the live server)

    This change would be similar to the Smite Evil changes that were made previously and smite evil now sees play.
    Last edited by Bloodskittle; 01-17-2020 at 03:20 AM.
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  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    I did see that Steelstar said that ST was capped at 3 targets but I wonder if that is because he thought that the limit was under 300%.

    I also don't think that my catch is unbalanced. Strikethrough seems like a good mechanic I just think it needs to be implemented well.

    Here is my suggestion of progression by feats:

    No THF: Hit 1 target base, ST % to hit more targets

    First THF feat: Hit 1 targets base, ST % to hit more targets, ST works while moving (current proposal)

    Improved THF feat: Hit 2 targets base, ST % to hit more targets

    Greater THF feat: Hit 3 targets base, ST % to hit more targets.

    Perfect THF feat: Hit 3 targets base, Proceed with current proposal


    Two handed fighting melee's won't be OP with those changes, they will be functioning well and in an enjoyable manner, its also the simplest implementation I've read on the forums here.

    My catch of %400 ST is for a very short moment and is essentially a little power boost for when you encounter too many enemies. In live play it will feel Strong enough to build to but it won't feel OP. You're a melee after all and things hurt you.
    Yeah this seems closer to right. The current amount of st the dev's are proposing is pathetically small and it doesn't work with special attacks.... unlike twf and ips..... st should be in increments of 50 imo, so you get 250% with all the feats, and the enhancements need a major buff, 3ap for 5 st is insulting. 1 ap might be acceptable. Also special attacks need to work with st and cleaves need to be fixed to work with speed, doublestrike, and mods like adrenaline. Anyways they still haven't addressed the biggest issue.... actually surviving hits...... so I guess we can continue to welcome our caster overlords.

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