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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Every time I do the math I've shown Arborea to have better DPS than current Ethereal until a bunch higher than 104 Hide (between 120 and 160 depending on build/gear etc). Also it's not limited by stuff immune to SA, and scales all your other effects (active attacks etc) which I didn't factor in the previous calculations.

    I guess where I'm at is if you're only hitting 100 Hide, just take Arborea and save yourself the hassle.

    Astral could be worth on Monks, the Dodge & Cap is pretty nice in conjunction with the 8% DS; but if you're near DS cap or use DS boost, it's fairly doable to overcap so I haven't run numbers on that. My instinct is outside of Monks it's not worth considering next to Arborea, but please run some numbers
    What is your math on this, and what class? It becomes less attractive if you already have a bunch of sneak attack (e.g. Rogue/SD), because both base and sneak damage scales with MP, while the +sneak only adds to base damage. On the other hand, if you just have plain 150 base damage, Arborea's 20 MP is only 30 extra damage, times the crit mult (e.g. 1.8) = 54 , while 100 hide would give you 33 sneak*1.5*MP, which should be much higher.

    High Base damage and Sneak, Low MP => go Arborea. Low Base damage and Sneak with high MP => Go Ethereal. I haven't calculated the cut-off points though.

    I would say that Ethereal was a bit OP initially when you could burst high MP and base damages were lower, but it's less clear to me now.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-16-2020 at 03:48 PM.

  2. #122
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    • Scion of the Ethereal Plane now adds 1.5 Sneak Attack Damage per rank of Hide you have, instead of 1 for every 3 points of your total Hide score.

    Seems strange that you would base a Legendary Scion on heroic invested skill ranks Its a Legendary fear for Legendary levels.

    This change also screws over classes that do not have full skill rank access and effectively makes Scion of Ethereal Plane undesirable for more players than it should.
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  3. #123
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    The nerf. to ethereal plane is big, most end gamers using it are 150-200 hide. The flip side to this nerd is at least for melee users hours can switch to arboreal which is less r10 dmg bit still a boost.

    Ranged users can use arboreal now to offset the 20% ups nerf. Just taking a big hit losing all that juicy sa.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This.

    Right now, the fighter and paladin stances are worthless to fighters and paladins as far as hp boost. They'll just take EDF in epic levels for 25% instead of 20%. The EDF impact is limited for them.

    It's silly that the fighter and paladin hp boost from stances are not needed by fighters and paladins.

    Put them higher in the tree so they can't be abused by other characters splashing fighter or paladin, if that's what you are worried about.

    Right now, rogues and rangers get the exact same hp boost as fighters and paladins.
    I agree this is silly. If not making them a different bonus, perhaps they should just convert the PAL/FHT %hp stances to a flat level-based bonus like on FvS. Currently FvS get more HP than a PAL/FHT once they pick up EDF. I guess FHT could buy 300hp w/ their feats, but FvS get their HP for free. Actually, they should probably just nerf FvS HP a bit anyway :-)

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    On live with buffs and consumables it is higher, but this should be high enough to illustrate some sort of context relative to melee and ranged builds. Feel free to prove my point wrong with an equally impressive screenshot of any heroic melee or ranged build.
    Good job not talking about the points I raised at all. SSG nerfs impact epic+ levels far more than heroic. Reduction in doubleshot and reduction in ranged power scaling have a far lesser impact in heroics than they do in epics and especially at cap. So your response is to say "look at this heroic damage output!". Golf clap.

    Also, go ahead and ask for a screenshot that compares melee or ranged sustain with caster burst? What? What kind of screenshot is going to show the difference between a sorc throwing chain lightning and an inquisitive triggering No Holds Barred for 18 seconds into a red name after popping a reaper +30% doubleshot boost?

    Screenshots don't prove anything.

  6. #126
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    Remember, wizards are a base d4 hitpoint class, fighters are d10. In order to get 25% EDF, you're not just given it for free, it costs 4 feats. Last I checked, clerics/FvS and wizards weren't exactly swimming in feats, so you should probably check to see what feats you need to give up and make sure they're not things like the shield mastery line, shield deflection, insightful reflexes and/or force of personality, etc, etc. Also, while you can certainly build a pale master for positive healing amp, I'm not sure how that's going to work for your self heals. You get the self healing penalty stacked on top of the 50% reduction and you've got lower caster levels to boot. I'm still dubious that the game is going to be overrun by 12 Cleric, 3 Fighter, 5 Wizard zombie tanks. That class mix won't be good at anything other than tanking, and I don't think it would be top of the heap at that job either.

    Wizard tanks are more likely going to be upwards of 15-17 wizard with a small splash of paladin for proficiencies and the defensive toggle. Screw EDF, take 3 paladin, get the 20% hitpoint bonus out of Sac Def, and have spellpower / DC swap gear for when tanking isn't required, trading off theoretical max hitpoints for a HUGE increase to self healing. Again, just my opinion.

    5 Wizard gets free Quickened and Extended Displacement for extra avoidance. You could use clickies, but it's more convenient. You could go Purple Dragon Knight for extra feat as well as Shield Deflection feat from racial tree. You can also take into account a whole lot of imunities that you get from being undead.

  7. #127
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    So some generic feedback, this seemed the most appropriate place to post it. The last time sweeping changes were made to classes (reworking most classes, adding in prr/mrr, and a bunch of other things), it obliterated my guild. Nobody ran a tweak build, but the changes completely devastated their current builds (lesser hearts were given freely the changes were so substantial, but their play styles were, at least in their mind, so fundamentally broken the heart didn't help). Most just slowly disappeared, including myself, and a few remained. I'm not really sure how long I was gone but it was certainly more than a couple of years. Ravenloft dragged me back and I actually purchased it and a few other packs and outside of some pretty heinous lag had been pretty much enjoying the game again, and the changes brought back a couple of guildies, but the majority of my guildmates expressed zero interest in returning. The ones that returned have more or less returned to being away again (logging in less and less) after Sharn newness wore off and I get the pretty strong feeling that if these changes proceed as planned, I won't be be far behind them. Really think twice about sweeping changes classes/trees, especially with respect to nerfing or invalidating, I have a feeling we weren't the only guild that collapsed in that era and I'm concerned we won't be the last after U45 goes active.

    For whatever its worth, probably not much.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    The Ethereal Plane is located proximately below the Legendary Trash Can Lid
    Scion of the Ethereal Plane now adds 1.5 Sneak Attack Damage per rank of Hide you have, instead of 1 for every 3 points of your total Hide score.
    - Even where Ethereal Plane wasn't optimal (the vast majority of the time) it was nice that you felt you'd built to maximize the feat by having high Dex and gearing for Hide.
    - It was fun vs Arborea's flat, boring increase.
    - There's no way the dps is overperforming now, much less into the future compared with the far more strongly scaling 20RP/MP from Arborea.
    - I literally cannot see a situation where I take this over Astral (anything in Shadow Dancer) or Arborea (anything else doing physical damage).
    - Could we get a rationale on it please so we know where it's coming from?
    It sure feels like the fun police wanted to reduce variety.

    There seems to be a need to clarify if this means the max is 23, or (23+10) 33, or something else? If it’s 23 it inflects to a nerf for folks with a current Hide score over 104 (I think Vrynxr has the infection point pegged).

    Which maybe is an advantage for some INT rogues or people who haven’t invested in gear. As a number of folks (Thrudh and Hit Fido) have pointed out, investments in getting a big score have opportunity costs, and making it easy to max it out without trying reduces a fun option.

    And since having a big Hide score isn’t all that useful for HIDING, because tremorsense and other anti-stealth design features, this feels like it’s just shrinking the number of viable ways to play and gear a toon.

    Or maybe I’m unclear on how the math works, and more stuff counts than I think does. If I understand it, I don’t like it, but not at all sure I understand it.
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  9. #129
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post

    Sneak Speed Nerfs
    'We've also fixed the Antirequisite flags on these abilities to more reliably prevent players from taking more than one.'

    - There are no anti-requisites or any sort of indication at all in place to indicate we shouldn't be taking more than one of these enhancements.
    - You give up a lot by doing so on assassins; literally 1 DC per rogue level; more if it's the capstone, and this ignores the enhancement points.
    - I'd be stunned if anyone thought there was a balance issue in 'moving up to 150% faster than base speed while stealthed, but capped at that point, and with heavy compromises in terms of class selection and DCs'. Just fix SD Core II to not be literally broken with rocket speed and cap it at 150% movement speed like sneak speed the rest of the time. This feels like enormous overkill with a double-nerf.
    - I'm conscious the tone of this announcement with the thing about 'more reliable prevention' is odd and I feel we're missing context.
    - Again, could we please get a rationale on it so we know where it's coming from?
    Indeed, re the rationale: What problem was this intended to fix? Rogues beating barbs to the puzzles in Old Baba’s Hut?

    As a trapper, I’m often behind groups after I’ve stopped to deal with a trap, and it’s a useful way to catch up.

    And Saekee’s gang of folks having fun with these get hammered, but boy, I don’t know how they got so high on the hit list of the fun police.
    Last edited by Scortius; 01-16-2020 at 07:06 PM.
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  10. #130
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post

    - Fix stealth by binning 'All-Seeing and All-Hearing' outright save on Purples or Reds then increase Spot tons as you need on reapers but it means they at least have to search etc.
    - Make Tremorsense beatable with insane amounts of Move Silently, like with land mines.
    - There's already more than enough anti-stealth in place with doors, mob kill requirements (both to earn reaper xp and open doors/finish quests), and the mob-chain-alerting.
    "Monster's sight detection of stealthed players has been decreased by 28% (was 25 meters, now 18) if their Stealth score exceeds the monster's spot skill. "
    "Hearing range on "All-Hearing" monsters (aka monsters with Tremorsense) has been reduced by 10% (from 20 meters down to 18)."

    Why's the detection range matter if my Hide beats the monsters Spot? What is it that happens at 18 meters in that case?

    Is the idea this is the same as non-stealthed detection ranges? And so the trick of auto-grabbing aggro by being stealthed doesn’t work anymore ?

    Otherwise I’m not sure I see any point here: are there important paths between 18 and 20 m out that were closed but are now open? But I assume this was on the radar for a reason… and I hope it isn’t just to fend off the stealth-fans by saying you threw them a bone.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It's a boring way to do it... Just get 23 ranks of Hide and you're done. No bonus for fitting in a Hide item, or making a Dex build, or using a Hide boost (you've made the Rogue active PL feat worthless), or even buying (from the store!), a Hide +skill tome.
    Or the Druid in party bothering to cast Spiderskin on DPS to help them out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Right now, the fighter and paladin stances are worthless to fighters and paladins as far as hp boost. They'll just take EDF in epic levels for 25% instead of 20%. The EDF impact is limited for them.

    It's silly that the fighter and paladin hp boost from stances are not needed by fighters and paladins.
    Apparently Fighter tanks not being able to cast ranged spells severely warps their play-style or something, I've heard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Shadow Training II in Shadowdancer now gives a 150% Enhancement bonus to Stealth Movement Speed instead of setting you to the normal base movement.
    Please confirm that the bonuses that SD II are supposed to provide to Hide, MS, SA die, and SA to-hit were corrected so that they properly stack with other common bonus types. This is a great time to fix it. I was going to test it tonight but I just saw that the preview has been closed.

    Thank you
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  14. #134
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post
    Love "Spring Attack" ! Very impressed with changes!
    Yes, Spring attack looks fun and usuable!
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    5 Wizard gets free Quickened and Extended Displacement for extra avoidance. You could use clickies, but it's more convenient. You could go Purple Dragon Knight for extra feat as well as Shield Deflection feat from racial tree. You can also take into account a whole lot of imunities that you get from being undead.
    Hey, if you think wizard is the be-all end-all tank class, then roll it up. I'm not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerio's. I know that for my tank, I have extended displacement and it I'm typically too busy running around managing agro to deal with re-applying it. Also, my AC tends to take care of most of the trash swings coming in, and the truly dangerous swings come from mobs that have true seeing anyway, so it doesn't much matter. I think splashing 5 levels of Arti for RMM Paragon Body was easier to accommodate than splashing 5 wizard for Zombie Form simply because the form itself has some negative implications for healing, base hitpoint die, base attack bonus, movement speed, and attack speed. Paragon body has none of those downsides. I can't remember the last raid boss I tanked that had abilities that undead or construct form makes you immune to.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    Screenshots don't prove anything.
    You should have seen them before they nerfed helpless damage. ***shakes fist angrily*** Again, I'm just showing context to what real AoE dps for leveling looks like for reference to melee and ranged builds.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-16-2020 at 09:02 PM.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    You should have seen them before they nerfed helpless damage. ***shakes fist angrily*** Again, I'm just showing context to what real AoE dps for leveling looks like for reference to melee and ranged builds.
    Yea, I hear ya. I shook my head in disbelief when they increased spell damage pretty much across the board for Sorcs and Wizards while still nerfing melee, knowing full well that Sorcs would be insane in heroics. The problem is, if they do the same treatment for Sorcs as they did for Warlocks, then you're going to end up in the same situations warlocks are in. Good for heroic and low skull, and forced into DC builds at cap for anything higher than R2. They really need to come up with a smoother damage scale through epics that matches the kind of stacking multipliers that ranged/melee get so their power curve can match everyone else's, or they will either be way overtuned in heroics and way undertuned at cap.

  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.
    [*]Aasimar's Healing Hands is now capped at 20 character levels.

    Known Issues
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    I had my toon on live and lammania at the same time. Same buffs. Everything identical. On live it was doing 2448 heals and on lam it was doing 586. So it was doing less than 24% on lamania. Even if u had it at CL10 instead of CL 20, CL10 of normal CL30 is 33% (816 a heal) and i was only getting less than 24% (586).

    Was there additional reduction in aasimar healing on lam beyond the CL10?
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  19. #139
    Community Member chipotle47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    Epic defensive fighting and the pally and fighter stances should 100% stack. These 2 classes need a buff and this would help to some extent. If you worried about only the 3 levels of fighter or pally being abused then moving them into the cores at around 12 or so. That way you still have to put more of an investment into the class to get the benefit.
    Completely disagree. If they stacked, the 3 levels of paly and fighter would be mandatory in any melee dps build and make capstones inferior. If you moved them further away into the 4th core, you are now isolating every melee build into have 12 of either of these two classes and then splitting or going pure. This dilutes your build choice even more than having it in the 2nd core because again, it would be ridiculously op and mandatory in any melee dps build.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladywolf View Post
    I had my toon on live and lammania at the same time. Same buffs. Everything identical. On live it was doing 2448 heals and on lam it was doing 586. So it was doing less than 24% on lamania. Even if u had it at CL10 instead of CL 20, CL10 of normal CL30 is 33% (816 a heal) and i was only getting less than 24% (586).

    Was there additional reduction in aasimar healing on lam beyond the CL10?
    Both Healing Hands and Lay on Hands had a behind the scenes bug for Preview 1 that erroneously capped your healing at roughly 33% of what it should be. This is fixed internally, thanks for the feedback
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