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  1. #21
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    This is clearly the weakest tree. Few are even commenting on it.

    Why bother making a tree nobody will even play?

    Dissolve is a lame copy of bard coup de grace, but swash actually has some offensive capabilites. Cure critical wounds yippee. Definately worth tier 5. The tier 5s are the worst I've ever seen in any tree much less a new one. Radiant servant tree, it's terrible but in comparison to this tree it's amazing.

    Buff the tree, make it exciting, because right now it's an underpowered snoozefest.
    Last edited by capsela; 01-17-2020 at 02:11 PM.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    This is clearly the weakest tree.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Buff the tree, make it exciting, because right now it's a snoozefest.
    Why?

    We can't do anything with feedback like this.

    As it goes, we've gotten both strong+useful feedback about Apothecary from places that aren't this thread, so I'm not especially worried, but if you are, I'm going to need to know more about what's going on in your head to figure out if we can/should do anything about it.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
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    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Why?


    Why?

    We can't do anything with feedback like this.

    As it goes, we've gotten both strong+useful feedback about Apothecary from places that aren't this thread, so I'm not especially worried, but if you are, I'm going to need to know more about what's going on in your head to figure out if we can/should do anything about it.
    Just not many healers in the game you noticed? Gotta make the healer trees fun, so people actually play them. Don't you agree?

    Maybe there's some more hidden offense in that tree, I see 1 in the core3 plus the tier 5 coup de grace that's 2 total. The tier 5s are copies of bard swash, and artificer RMM. Both swash and RMM clearly have more offensive capabilities in their trees, RMM less so. (Don't see too many RMM around either.) UMD in tier 5 is pretty pointless too. It's already a class skill.
    Last edited by capsela; 01-17-2020 at 02:52 PM.
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  4. #24
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    One of the inherent issues I see with the tree with a focus on positive/negative spell power is that your key stat in this regard is Wisdom, as that's what the Heal skill is based off of. For a class that rewards scaling Intelligence more than the others, this inherently leaves them at a disadvantage when compared to any other class with healing (except for Bard, who scales on Charisma).

    I'd either think it makes sense to increase the positive/negative spell power boosts of the cores in the tree to offset this, or (if possible) add a feat or ability to where the Heal skill scales off of Intelligence rather than Wisdom.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Why?


    Why?

    We can't do anything with feedback like this.

    As it goes, we've gotten both strong+useful feedback about Apothecary from places that aren't this thread, so I'm not especially worried, but if you are, I'm going to need to know more about what's going on in your head to figure out if we can/should do anything about it.
    I'll give a light shot at this as someone who was curious about the non-offensive tree rumored to come out, though it's less about power and more about aesthetic and look/feel, in my case.

    I hate playing healers of the traditional sort - sitting around monitoring health bars isn't fun to me. But I love playing support, so much that non-traditional healers have been some of my favorite classes (Disciple/Blood Mage in Vanguard, Dancer in FFXI, etc.) When I can be engaged with the game, rather than health bars, and perform a support/healing role, it's enjoyable. Most of DDO's healing sorts tend to lean on the fact that you can also beat face, and do it fairly well in many cases. I imagine part of the Apothecary is that you can still bomb and buff and blast away spell-wise while also especially boosting your healing - or at least that'd be my guess. We haven't seen much of any of the spells (and I logged in to Lammania too late to check it out first hand) so it could be a lot of the 'flavor' comes there and I haven't seen it but then that's Alchemist and less Apothecary.

    So that's the context for my opinion - when looking at the tree there's nothing here that says "wow, that's a real neat twist on heals and totally fits the feel of an Apothecary-type character." Dissolve is good, actually, it hits the feel. But the rest of the tree is passives and abilities that other trees have. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not exciting at a glance. It reminds me of the Sorcerer trees if you took away the few unique actives they have - passives, passives, passives. A bit dull, to some. That isn't to say the tree isn't good - I'm not familiar with healing and spellpower, could be a powerhouse healer, but looking at it, at least for me and my playstyle, doesn't make me "oh yeah, I don't normally dig healers, but that looks fun!" And honestly that's fine, if it's really meant to be "just a healer option" for Alchemist then it fits the bill and, indeed, may do the job just fine. But it doesn't look exciting in the slightest. Plenty of things might be decent but aren't exciting because the way they do them, even if the end result is the same DPS/healing/whatever, it's aesthetic and flavor. I've yet to see any healing in DDO have any real flavor or aesthetic, and it has kept me from playing a healer.

    Some thoughts as to what could push it in a more Apothecary direction - in fact, the Alchemy thing as a whole. The reaction system is neat but, before it was revealed, I had images of something almost Monk-ish and having to memorize ingredient combos and throwing out all kinds of weird stuff based on that. The present buffs and passive boosts are nice but not super interactive, they're something you get, enjoy having, and forget they exist.. because they don't require any real interaction and they're always gonna be there without any real effort beyond simply remembering which order to nuke/heal/buff/debuff in, but that isn't intensely engaging. It kinda just feels like a bit of a stance-dance vibe, cycling a couple abilities to keep up two beefy reactions. It's rhythmic more than alchemic. Possibly some spells have additional effects when in a certain reaction state? Triggered stuff on mobs when you are in a certain one? Reasons to stay IN a state rather than swap just to arbitrarily get a short buff over and over? Synergy is interesting!

    But more to Apothecary - what about some ground-radius stuff in the general vein of Consecreate but more flexible - positive/negative healing/damage? Oils and such they can splatter about for defensive/offensive purposes, Magister-esque but their own flavor/effects? Heck, double that down and make them combine in interesting ways when overlapping to create different effects - NOW we're talking Alchemy, now it's something that makes me, at least, go "huh, I wonder what all that can do". When I think an alchemist doing support I imagine some crazy fellow smashing bottles at his feet and spreading oils on weapons, defensive ointments that prevent damage or ignore effects, burning herbs to ward off the undead. Mixing and making things, combining effects - not just potion chucking.

  6. #26
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    After going back and reading all three trees, there's a bit of a flaw. In the bombardier tree, the alchemist's stone toggle gives +20 mrr and mrr cap if you're pure. That's a pretty big bonus, especially since alchemist is forced to stay in robes unless you want to burn a few feats on armor proficiency. However, apothecary's alchemist stone toggle is +10 healing amp and +20 positive spellpower. Why would you want to use that instead of +20 mrr cap? Seems like a no-brainer, to me. All three stone toggles need to be competitive with each other.

    Also, why is Conjure Component really need 3 ranks? Why would anyone spend 3 AP to get that just to reduce the spell cost? You login, use it once or twice, and you're set for several hours. This is a bit of a waste of time on that one. This almost feels like you guys were at a loss of what to put in this tree and you needed filler AP.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Why?

    We can't do anything with feedback like this.

    As it goes, we've gotten both strong+useful feedback about Apothecary from places that aren't this thread, so I'm not especially worried, but if you are, I'm going to need to know more about what's going on in your head to figure out if we can/should do anything about it.
    It seems to me that the tree has strong tier one abilities (temp HP, CLW SLA), some ok tier 5 abilities, but barely anything in between.

    Tier 2: nothing. conjure components maybe
    Tier 3: nothing. saves you an augment slot
    Tier 4: Six MRR seems weak for a tier 4. Movement Speed is great but...
    Tier 5 abilities:

    CCW SLA: nice

    +15% chance to retain Healing Potions: incredibly weak for a tier 5, move to first core. move UMD to cores as well
    Voila, an empty tier 5 slot for something useful

    Dissolve - ok

    Master Apothecary: ok

    Deadly Neurotoxin: how about +3 per stack? Or straight -10 and no stacking.


    If you don't want to add more killing power to the tree, how about some more debuffs/CC.
    - Perhaps something like Cancer Mage Prestige Class.
    - Rework Poison spell into something useful and grant it here as an SLA.
    - Decomposition is a flavorful spell, wounds fester for extra damage, something like that?

    Or think of something similar to FvS beacon buffs. Toss something adrenalinesque at the group?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    It seems to me that the tree has strong tier one abilities (temp HP, CLW SLA), some ok tier 5 abilities, but barely anything in between.

    Tier 2: nothing. conjure components maybe
    Tier 3: nothing. saves you an augment slot
    Tier 4: Six MRR seems weak for a tier 4. Movement Speed is great but...
    Tier 5 abilities:

    CCW SLA: nice

    +15% chance to retain Healing Potions: incredibly weak for a tier 5, move to first core. move UMD to cores as well
    Voila, an empty tier 5 slot for something useful

    Dissolve - ok

    Master Apothecary: ok

    Deadly Neurotoxin: how about +3 per stack? Or straight -10 and no stacking.


    If you don't want to add more killing power to the tree, how about some more debuffs/CC.
    - Perhaps something like Cancer Mage Prestige Class.
    - Rework Poison spell into something useful and grant it here as an SLA.
    - Decomposition is a flavorful spell, wounds fester for extra damage, something like that?

    Or think of something similar to FvS beacon buffs. Toss something adrenalinesque at the group?
    Agreed, the higher tiers in this tree are very lackluster. There's nothing that really stands out and makes you say "I want that!" higher in the tree except the capstone.
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  9. #29
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    I don't understand what the salves do.
    Toon on cannith

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    I don't understand what the salves do.
    They act like the converter drone in the mastermaker tree for artificers. You basically get two abilities: Life Salve, which allows undead/warforged/bladeforged characters to receive full healing from positive energy effects and Death Salve, which allows fleshies/warforged/bladeforged to take full healing from negative energy effects. It basically allows the apothecary to use curative admixtures and inflict wounds admixtures on anyone and be able to heal them, ignoring any penalties the character might have.

    Example: using Life Salve on a pale master wizard negates the penalty that pale masters receive from positive energy spells, allowing them to be healed for 100% of the spell instead of 50%.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    They act like the converter drone in the mastermaker tree for artificers. You basically get two abilities: Life Salve, which allows undead/warforged/bladeforged characters to receive full healing from positive energy effects and Death Salve, which allows fleshies/warforged/bladeforged to take full healing from negative energy effects. It basically allows the apothecary to use curative admixtures and inflict wounds admixtures on anyone and be able to heal them, ignoring any penalties the character might have.

    Example: using Life Salve on a pale master wizard negates the penalty that pale masters receive from positive energy spells, allowing them to be healed for 100% of the spell instead of 50%.
    Thanks for explaining. I didn't understand what it was because I couldn't believe they would make this.

    Well, I can see that would be useful.

    Lol just kidding. This is terrible imho. 3 minutes lol. Why would u ever use negative if your sla's are positive? Don't make sense.
    Last edited by capsela; 01-22-2020 at 03:36 PM.
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  12. #32

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    Gloves of the Master Apothecary: What's the point of the 15% retain feature when Conjure Component is already available? Even if the 15% retain feature applied to all potions, it's still too niche for a T5 ability. The best case scenario would be saving a limited available potion like Radiant Forcefield.

    Holistically, the current T5 abilities are lackluster: Retreads of other T5 abilities, or not enough pizzaz to lure me away from Bombadier T5 if a 20 Alch, or T5 in other classes if a split class build. Dissolve is cool.

    Life Salve/Death Salve is too niche with a 3 min cooldown. You use it, and then your target dies but it's still on cooldown for you so the target goes without it. And if the target can go without it, then it wasn't really needed in the first place. Kinda lame, just like Converter. At the very least extend the duration to caster level in minutes. The game doesn't need yet another buff duration to micromanage in a dungeon or a raid. Set it and forget it until a target dies or shrines.

    Consider:
    * T3 Flash Freeze SLA -> T4 Flesh to Gold SLA -> T5 Mass Flesh to Gold SLA. 3 Tiers each to reduce SP/cooldown. The class spells for Mass F2G and Flash Freeze have lengthy cooldowns (unsure of Flesh to Gold's cooldown), so having access to a second cast of it with a shorter cooldown is most welcomed.
    * Add an Admixture to remove all negative effects including death penalties. This is such an important ability for a "healer" when pushing difficult content and tanks die. Since it's an AoE, it provides something unique compared to other healers.
    * Extend the Soothing Pultices concept further:
    ** Apply 10/20/30 alchemical heal/negative amp 1min buff to friendly targets affected by your Gildleaf or Cerulite spells, when in Verdanite reaction.
    ** Apply 3/6/10% alchemical fire/ice/acid/electric/poison absorb 1min buff to friendly targets affected by your Gildleaf or Cerulite spells, when in Verdanite reaction.
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  13. #33
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Gloves of the Master Apothecary: What's the point of the 15% retain feature when Conjure Component is already available? Even if the 15% retain feature applied to all potions, it's still too niche for a T5 ability. The best case scenario would be saving a limited available potion like Radiant Forcefield.

    Holistically, the current T5 abilities are lackluster: Retreads of other T5 abilities, or not enough pizzaz to lure me away from Bombadier T5 if a 20 Alch, or T5 in other classes if a split class build. Dissolve is cool.

    Life Salve/Death Salve is too niche with a 3 min cooldown. You use it, and then your target dies but it's still on cooldown for you so the target goes without it. And if the target can go without it, then it wasn't really needed in the first place. Kinda lame, just like Converter. At the very least extend the duration to caster level in minutes. The game doesn't need yet another buff duration to micromanage in a dungeon or a raid. Set it and forget it until a target dies or shrines.

    Consider:
    * T3 Flash Freeze SLA -> T4 Flesh to Gold SLA -> T5 Mass Flesh to Gold SLA. 3 Tiers each to reduce SP/cooldown. The class spells for Mass F2G and Flash Freeze have lengthy cooldowns (unsure of Flesh to Gold's cooldown), so having access to a second cast of it with a shorter cooldown is most welcomed.
    * Add an Admixture to remove all negative effects including death penalties. This is such an important ability for a "healer" when pushing difficult content and tanks die. Since it's an AoE, it provides something unique compared to other healers.
    * Extend the Soothing Pultices concept further:
    ** Apply 10/20/30 alchemical heal/negative amp 1min buff to friendly targets affected by your Gildleaf or Cerulite spells, when in Verdanite reaction.
    ** Apply 3/6/10% alchemical fire/ice/acid/electric/poison absorb 1min buff to friendly targets affected by your Gildleaf or Cerulite spells, when in Verdanite reaction.
    I think the salve abilities are there for multiclass options. I don't particularly care for them, either.

    The tier 5's are definitely lacking. They really need a cure-all potion or something that removes all negative effects and negative levels. This is an apothecary, after all; they're supposed to specialize in curing ailments. Even if it's a 5 minute cooldown clicky like cleric/favored soul/paladin gets.

    The retain essence thing is complete nonsense, especially considering they already have conjure components. The only way I'd see this being useful if it was something like +3% chance to retain the essence of potions used per alchemist level (so maximum 60%): this is an alchemist, they're supposed to be masters of using potions, and if you're going to go tier 5 in this tree, I'd expect to get some use out of those forcefield, stoneskin, greater heroism, invisibility, death ward, jumping, rising fury, and yugoloth potions.
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