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  1. #1
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default U45 Preview 1: Alchemist Apothecary Enhancement Tree

    Hello, all! This is the First Look thread for Alchemist's Apothecary enhancement tree. If you haven't looked at the Base Class thread yet, I suggest you do that first, then come back here.

    Utilizing their Alchemical knowledge to aid their allies, Apothecaries focus on creating potions that heal allies and remove debuffs. Apothecaries primarily take on a Support role, keeping themselves and their party on their feet.



    Cores:
    Core 1: Determination: +1 Will Save
    Core 2: Alchemical Shield: While wearing Light or no armor (or in Mithral Plating), you have a +4 Shield bonus to AC and are protected from Magic Missiles.
    • Passive: While your Reaction is Verdanite, +5 Positive & Negative Spell Power

    Core 3: Curative Admixture: CSW SLA (Gildleaf spell)
    • Passive: While your Reaction is Verdanite, +5 Positive & Negative Spell Power

    Core 4: Spill the Bad Stuff:
    • Gildleaf Offensive SLA: Deals 1d6+4 per Caster Level of a random type of damage to enemies in a short cone. The damage all scales with Positive Spell Power. Affected enemies have a chance to be Blinded, Dazed, Silenced, Tripped, Stunned, or Paralyzed. (Fortitude save negates).
    • Passive: While your Reaction is Verdanite, +2% Positive & Negative Spell Critical Damage & 5% Magical Efficiency (reduced spell point cost)

    Core 5: Curative Admixture: Heal
    • Passive: While your Reaction is Verdanite, +1 Transmutation DC

    Core 6: Genius Never Dies!: +4 Intelligence. +20 Concentration. You gain +1000 Unconsciousness Range and the Diehard feat.
    • Passive: While your Reaction is Verdanite, +2 Transmutation DC


    Tier 1

    • Curative Admixture: CLW SLA (Gildleaf spell)
    • Skills: +1/2/3 Haggle, Concentration, and Heal (3rd Rank: +1 Will Saves)
    • Spell Crit Chance: Positive and Negative 2%
    • Energy of the Scholar: +30/60/90 Spell Points
    • Soothing Poultices: While in Verdanite, casting a friendly spell leaves temp HP equal to 33%/66%/100% of your Int.


    Tier 2

    • Conjure Component SLA
    • Hale and Hearty: +3/6/10 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification
    • Spell Crit Chance: Positive and Negative 2%
    • Stone of the Scholar: Alchemist's Stone Toggle: While wielding an Orb in your off-hand, you gain +10 Healing Amp, +20 Positive Spell Power. You can only have one Alchemist's Stone Toggle active at a time
    • Salves: You gain both of the following SLAs:
      • Life Salve: Cerulite Spell SLA: Target player, hireling, or pet (but NOT self) takes 100% base healing from Positive spells for the next three minutes, or until the target dies. Has no effect on NPC allies or any creature that already takes 100% base healing from Positive spells. This overrides their innate base healing from Positive spells for the duration. (Cost: 4 spell points. Cooldown: 3 minutes)
      • Death Salve: Cerulite Spell SLA: Target player, hireling, or pet (but NOT self) takes 100% base healing from Negative spells for the next three minutes, or until the target dies. Has no effect on NPC allies or any creature that already takes 100% base healing from Negative spells. This overrides their innate base healing from Negative spells for the duration. (Cost: 4 spell points. Cooldown: 3 minutes, shared with Life Salve)


    Tier 3

    • -
    • Safety Goggles: +1/2/3 Armor Class and +2/4/6 Energy Resistance. Rank 3: Blindness Immunity
    • Spell Crit Chance: Positive and Negative 2%
    • Vital Ambition: When your reaction is Verdanite, you gain +1 Will Save, +1 for every 5 Alchemist Levels you have
    • INT/CON


    Tier 4

    • -
    • Insulated Boots: +2/4/6 Magical Resistance Rating, Rank 3: Immunity to Slippery Surfaces
    • Spell Crit Chance: Positive and Negative 2%
    • Run For Your Life!: While your reaction is Verdanite, you have 1% movement speed per Alchemist level
    • INT/CON


    Tier 5

    • Curative Admixture: CCW SLA (Gildleaf spell)
    • Gloves of the Master Apothecary: +15% chance to retain Healing Potions, +5 UMD and +10 Universal Spell Power
    • Dissolve: Target enemy at touch range that is Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Heal skill) or die instantly. (20 second cooldown).
    • Master Apothecary: You have no Max Caster Level with Curative Admixtures and any Gildleaf Alchemist Spells.
    • Deadly Neurotoxin: Your offensive Giltleaf and Cerulite spells reduce enemies MRR by 1 per stack, max 5
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  2. #2
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Default A+ art, one little thing

    Don't really wanna rain on the Alchemist parade, but the art for that top-left enhancement feels a little disturbing. For some people, it might conjure thoughts or memories about self harm done to themselves or friends/family. And looks like this is the CCW SLA, which players will be using and looking at a lot!

    In general though, I'll say the art team has really knocked it out of the park for these trees! I especially like the ones that show evolution of a technique, like this Spell crit line and Vile Chemist's poison dagger.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    Don't really wanna rain on the Alchemist parade, but the art for that top-left enhancement feels a little disturbing. For some people, it might conjure thoughts or memories about self harm done to themselves or friends/family. And looks like this is the CCW SLA, which players will be using and looking at a lot!
    A very fair point, thank you for the feedback. I'll talk to the art team about it.
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  4. #4
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    The Tier 2 salve to enable negative energy healing is certainly welcome, but actually healing with negative energy seems woefully underrepresented (only the L6 spell Harm Admixture).

    Can all of the curative admixtures also have a negative option? Even better, have the T5 SLA automatically apply the corresponding salve to the recipients so it guarantees a healing reaction.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWCarter View Post
    The Tier 2 salve to enable negative energy healing is certainly welcome, but actually healing with negative energy seems woefully underrepresented (only the L6 spell Harm Admixture).

    Can all of the curative admixtures also have a negative option? Even better, have the T5 SLA automatically apply the corresponding salve to the recipients so it guarantees a healing reaction.
    I believe the Inflict Wounds admixtures should function for Negative healing on Undead allies; those come in light/moderate/etc, on the same track as the Curative Admixtures. (I think their tooltip text is off at the moment, but that's their intended role).
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWCarter View Post
    The Tier 2 salve to enable negative energy healing is certainly welcome, but actually healing with negative energy seems woefully underrepresented (only the L6 spell Harm Admixture).

    Can all of the curative admixtures also have a negative option? Even better, have the T5 SLA automatically apply the corresponding salve to the recipients so it guarantees a healing reaction.
    They currently do have this, don't worry. The notes may be incorrect in that regard.
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  7. #7
    Community Member MrChipinator's Avatar
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    Favored Souls are the top dogs of healing right now, with their Wall being able to keep up the party relatively well and their buffs being a 'high skill high reward' style of support.
    Bards are able to give everyone a little helper over time heal and are invaluable in this way because you can have 30 minutes of 'slow and steady' healing.
    Clerics need work badly and I hope we can have a dialogue on how to make them good as top-tier healers in the future, I will certainly be eager to engage there.
    Druids have some of the best 'burst DoT' heals and are able to function as competent healers and host a variety of playstyle combo's.
    Artificer has a very niche talent of healing, one that is certainly appreciated but obviously not their main role, which is perfectly fine given the other slew of things they do.

    What I'm curious about regarding this, is where do you guys (the Devs) see Alchemists fitting in? Do you want to see the Apothecary fill that middle role of healing and support with buffs/debuffs? Do you want them to be able to serve as primary healers? Or are you comfortable saying they will be the perfect middle ground of "a dash of this and a splash of that"?

    I ask because this certainly seems like they will fill the role of specialist with player APM being the key factor on how good they are (which I am all for).
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWCarter View Post
    The Tier 2 salve to enable negative energy healing is certainly welcome, but actually healing with negative energy seems woefully underrepresented (only the L6 spell Harm Admixture).
    Think this is clearly aimed at PM splits, so you can heal a party mate (or hireling, when solo) with your DA and NEB

    As it stands right now I think 7 Wiz/12 Alch/1 ??? might be a pretty powerful combo, with PM immunities and healing plus VC Poison damage (which breaks immunity) all scaling on your Negative spellpower.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    I believe the Inflict Wounds admixtures should function for Negative healing on Undead allies; those come in light/moderate/etc, on the same track as the Curative Admixtures. (I think their tooltip text is off at the moment, but that's their intended role).
    Excellent, thank you for confirming!

  10. #10
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrChipinator View Post
    Favored Souls are the top dogs of healing right now, with their Wall being able to keep up the party relatively well and their buffs being a 'high skill high reward' style of support.
    Bards are able to give everyone a little helper over time heal and are invaluable in this way because you can have 30 minutes of 'slow and steady' healing.
    Clerics need work badly and I hope we can have a dialogue on how to make them good as top-tier healers in the future, I will certainly be eager to engage there.
    Druids have some of the best 'burst DoT' heals and are able to function as competent healers and host a variety of playstyle combo's.
    Artificer has a very niche talent of healing, one that is certainly appreciated but obviously not their main role, which is perfectly fine given the other slew of things they do.

    What I'm curious about regarding this, is where do you guys (the Devs) see Alchemists fitting in? Do you want to see the Apothecary fill that middle role of healing and support with buffs/debuffs? Do you want them to be able to serve as primary healers? Or are you comfortable saying they will be the perfect middle ground of "a dash of this and a splash of that"?

    I ask because this certainly seems like they will fill the role of specialist with player APM being the key factor on how good they are (which I am all for).
    It does seem like alchemist has a bit of a handicap in this area, particularly since their admixtures require projectile travel time will require a heavy dose of forethought. Alchemist seems a bit lackluster as a healer, although it's nice that the tree does have good synergy with most of the crowd control options, so apothecary is sort of a healer/CCer hybrid, similar to spellsinger. I like.

    I'd like to see a regeneration potion or something; give them a heal over time effect in addition to the admixtures. Some buffs, too, since the tree also focuses on cerulite primers. Perhaps a fortifying effect, giving allies PRR or fortification or something when affected by your spells; this would make your admixtures useful and not just a heal with a wind-up time. Alchemists should be able to spice up their potions with added effects, not just basic heals (heck, you could even call it 'spike the punch').

    Deadly Neurotoxin seems exceptionally weak for a tier 5. I would expect to see something like this in tier 1 or 2.

    Loving the capstone, though.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 01-14-2020 at 10:11 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    It does seem like alchemist has a bit of a handicap in this area, particularly since their admixtures require projectile travel time will require a heavy dose of forethought. Alchemist seems a bit lackluster as a healer, although it's nice that the tree does have good synergy with most of the crowd control options, so apothecary is sort of a healer/CCer hybrid, similar to spellsinger. I like.

    I'd like to see a regeneration potion or something; give them a heal over time effect in addition to the admixtures. Some buffs, too, since the tree also focuses on cerulite primers. Perhaps a fortifying effect, giving allies PRR or fortification or something when affected by your spells; this would make your admixtures useful and not just a heal with a wind-up time. Alchemists should be able to spice up their potions with added effects, not just basic heals (heck, you could even call it 'spike the punch').

    Deadly Neurotoxin seems exceptionally weak for a tier 5. I would expect to see something like this in tier 1 or 2.

    Loving the capstone, though.
    The temp hp on cast is already a pretty good rider on admixtures - but I'd be happy to see a HOT added onto them as well, I think that would differentiate their healing nicely and make it kinda analogous to cocoon

  12. #12
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The temp hp on cast is already a pretty good rider on admixtures - but I'd be happy to see a HOT added onto them as well, I think that would differentiate their healing nicely and make it kinda analogous to cocoon
    Yes, a HoT is what they need to round it out and make them at least comparable to Beacon, Spellsinger, and Radiant. Maybe a mass vigor in bottle form in tier 4 as an SLA?
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]T4: Run For Your Life!: While your reaction is Verdanite, you have 1% movement speed per Alchemist level
    The T4 placement and reaction requirement make it too narrow to be utilized consistently by many Alchemists.

    Rogues can access fast movement in T1.
    Bards can access fast movement in T2.

    Requiring a specific reaction means it has a narrow window of use. With the overwhelming complexity of Alchemist, having one more state to juggle *AND* having it T4 means it's only ever going to be utilized by people heavily invested in Apothecary (aka "healers").

    Consider lowering it in the tree to T2 and eliminating the reaction requirement, so it lures other Alchemist archetypes to invest 12-13 AP into the Apothecary tree.
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The T4 placement and reaction requirement make it too narrow to be utilized consistently by many Alchemists.

    Rogues can access fast movement in T1.
    Bards can access fast movement in T2.

    Requiring a specific reaction means it has a narrow window of use. With the overwhelming complexity of Alchemist, having one more state to juggle *AND* having it T4 means it's only ever going to be utilized by people heavily invested in Apothecary (aka "healers").

    Consider lowering it in the tree to T2 and eliminating the reaction requirement, so it lures other Alchemist archetypes to invest 12-13 AP into the Apothecary tree.
    We don't want most Alchemists to be fast; we want most healing-centric heavily-Apothecary-invested Alchemists to be fast. The narrow window of use is intended.
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    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  15. #15
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    Default Typo

    There is one place in this tree where "Reaction" is spelled with a lower case 'r' where in all other cases it uses a capital 'R'. Consistency
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  16. #16
    2016 DDO Council Member Strimtom's Avatar
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    Here are all the things I found that were either bugs or suggestions for adjustment:

    apothecary:
    [BUG]life salve/death salve don't work. No animations, no effect placed on players. Nothing at all.
    [BUG]alchemist admixture spells are not coded with components, so conjure component doesn't effect alchemist spells. So conjure components does nothing.
    [BUG]Heal admixture is the fastest casting admixture. It feels really good to use, but the other admixtures take way longer on their wind up animation. Not sure if intentional.
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  17. #17
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Default Decent secondary tree

    --Spill the Bad Stuff. What's the cool down on this? I'm of the school that Color Spray is OP. This is a color spray that does damage. Saving grace would be that it's a fort save. So OP heroic and meh Epic?

    --Genius Never dies. I don't know if this is good, but somehow I find it funny. I also can't see ever taking capstone or even tier 5 from this tree.

    Overall, this tree looks about right, and I would probably splash into it, but hard to imagine choosing it as my primary tree over either of the other two. I would probably get it to tier 4 on pure Alchy because the other trees don't much complement each other and I love run speed and spilling bad stuff.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We don't want most Alchemists to be fast; we want most healing-centric heavily-Apothecary-invested Alchemists to be fast. The narrow window of use is intended.
    If might make a suggestion then, make this a tier 3 enhancement instead of 4, that way alchemists would still have to invest more AP into it to get it, but it is still viable for multiclass/other alchemists as well...not that I worry much since I always get rogue levels, but it might be a nice compromise???

    And in epic, I always choose EA for back up heals...nothing like throwing a mass CMW for 1000(low hamp/undead folks) to 5-6k for those with hamp(and 13k crits) on my warlock...

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  19. #19
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    Despite having Death Salve, all of the SLAs in this tree are positive healing only. Ideally, each of those SLAs would give the Alchemist access to both Cure Wounds and Inflict Wounds versions, otherwise Death Salve seems pointless.

    Also, with Life/Death Salve, can the duration be scaled by caster level? 3-minute buffs that mean life-or-death are frustrating to keep up, and if someone is willing to be a dedicated healer/harmer Alchemist, it seems like they should be able to get that to persist longer. Also, the 3-minute cooldown is harsh as you could easily add the buff to the wrong character or something. Any chance you could make the salve last 30+ seconds per caster level, reduce the cooldown to something more reasonable (60 seconds?), and perhaps add a T5 or capstone ability to make it self-applicable?

  20. #20
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    I'd also really like to see some sort of support for alchemical party buffs. It doesn't have to be much, but nearly everything the Alchemist does is "Self" only, aside from the curatives. Some kind of party-assisting alchemical ritual at the start of each quest would be welcome .

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