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  1. #21
    Community Member stealing-monkey's Avatar
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    Default Poison Coating not scaling

    Poison coating isn't scaling with spell power at all, i had 1000+ poison sp while another had 350 and we were getting the same numbers. Also change 'Venomed Blades' to scale with poison spell power as well, would make sense since all the sudden changes to poison in the game.
    Jennafer~Quickhealz~Glitterjuice-Khyber

  2. #22
    2016 DDO Council Member Strimtom's Avatar
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    Here are all the things I found that were either bugs or suggestions for adjustment:

    Vile chemist:
    [BUG]Toxic augmentation does not display a reduction in fortitude saves for contaminated targets
    [BUG]Greater wave of poison removes wave of poison debuff, but then you can re apply wave of poison debuff. Dunno about that, they should stack.
    Wave of poison does very little damage. Needs a buff big time. Also since this is melee range, it felt weird to get into melee to apply a debuff that did very little.
    [BUG]Core 5 and 6 say orchidium adds dodge cap but it does not
    All my builds in one place!
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  3. #23
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Default Remember that never-used item...

    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    Before getting all worked up about how "overpowered" these bonuses sound... the real base to this is the fact that no matter what you do, you arent going to get a high base damage on a dart, throwing dagger, or shuriken to the degree you can with heavy xbows. And since damage in DDO is so heavily based around crits that is a big deal.
    Just curious, are you familiar with the Nightforge Spike? It is Easily acquired in 1 run on casual in Relic of a Sovereign Past (F2P).

    ML 8 with a Crit profile of 16-20 / x3

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Spike

    Devs, you're reactively nerfing Ratcatcher. Please, proactively nerf Nightforge Spike.
    Cilon can be found on Orien.

  4. #24
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    I really like a lot of the comments in this thread. GJ community!

    Overall, I like what the tree is doing here and I like the dodge and PRR for the lab coat guy. I agree with several commenters that the ROF/double shot are going to be out of control (at least as long as Nightforge Spike isn't nerfed.)

    A few specific points I didn't see mentioned by others:

    --Core 4 grants full BAB. As I mentioned in my base-class-post, lab rats should have low BAB not moderate. Core 4 should raise it to moderate, NOT full. They can scroll Tenser's like everyone else if they want full BAB (although I don't think I'd mind Tenser's being an Alchemist spell).

    --Why do deadly poisons all grant +2 to hit. Are alchemists secretly the best shots in the game?

    --Envenom the heart on tier 4 is a bit concerning. Vulnerability/immunity suppression are powerful and generally seen at tier 5. There's a reason Tieflings are fire sorcs and it's related to this.

    --What's the point of sapping ambition? Someone with tier 5 in this tree probably doesn't have the greatest need or use for temp sp.
    Cilon can be found on Orien.

  5. #25
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Hello, all! This is the First Look thread for Alchemist's Vile Chemist enhancement tree.

    If you haven't looked at the Base Class and Spellcasting threads yet, I suggest you do that first, then come back here.

    Imbuing their concoctions and Simple weapons with potent poisons, Vile Chemists are versatile combatants. Between striking foes with poison-coated weapons and tossing Spellvials filled with toxins, Vile Chemists take a hybrid weapon/casting offensive role, dealing with individual targets effectively.



    Cores

    • Core 1: +2 to saves vs. Poisons, +2 to saves vs. Diseases. Poison Spells you cast leave an enemy Contaminated.
    • Core 2: Poisoned Coating
      • Exclusive with Eldritch Knight Toggles.
      • Toggle: While active, deal an additional 1d6 Poison damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 Alchemist levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18). This damage scales with Spell Power.
      • Passive: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +5 PRR.
    • Core 3: +3% Doublestrike. You gain a chance based on your Intelligence score to throw an extra Simple Thrown Weapon per attack.
      • Passive: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +5 PRR.
    • Core 4: +10 Universal Spell Power, +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Your Poisoned Coating dice are now D8s (instead of the original d6s). If you have Simple Thrown Expertise, you now use the higher of your Dexterity and Intelligence to determine the chance to throw an extra projectile.
      • Passive: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +5% Dodge and full Base Attack Bonus.
    • Core 5: Brushed Aside: You gain the Defensive Roll feat (When below 20% HP, there's a chance equal to your Reflex save that attacks do half damage and have their effects negated). Your Poisoned Coating Dice are now d10s (Replacing previous d8s). Your Simple Weapons gain +1 Competence bonus to their Critical Damage Multiplier.
      • Passive: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +5% Dodge and +5 PRR
    • Core 6: +4 Intelligence. Your Poisoned Coating die size is now d12. You gain +2 Poisoned Coating dice.
      • Passive: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +10 PRR and +5% Dodge Cap.


    Tier 1

    • Stiffen Skin: Ceruleite SLA.
    • Deadly Poison: +2 to hit and +1 to damage with Simple Weapons.
    • Alchemical Accuracy: +1/2/3 to attack
    • Martial Subtlety: -20/30/40% threat generation with melee and ranged attacks
    • Skills: +1/2/3 to Hide, Move Silently, and Bluff. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saves


    Tier 2

    • -
    • Deadly Poison: +2 to hit and +1 to damage with Simple Weapons.
    • Poisoned Shot: Multiselector: Melee/Ranged attack: +1/2/3[w]: On successful damage: struck enemies are Contaminated. (6 second cooldown).
    • Venom Affinity: +3/6/10 Poison Spell Power, Rank 3: +1 Reflex saving throws
    • Stone of the Subliminal: Alchemist's Stone Toggle: While wielding an Orb in your off-hand, you gain +5% Doublestrike, +5% Doubleshot, and are Blurry. You can only have one Alchemist's Stone Toggle active at a time



    Tier 3

    • Wave of Poison: Cerulite SLA:
      • You infect enemies in a short cone with a deadly poison that eats away at them. After 6 seconds, target creatures take 1d6+4 Poison damage per Caster Level. (MCL:10). (6 second cooldown). Affected Enemies are Contaminated for 20 seconds.
    • Deadly Poison: +2 to hit and +1 to damage with Simple Weapons.
    • Toxic Augmentation: Striking an enemy that is Contaminated with a melee or ranged attack reduces their Fort Saves by 1, stacks 6 times.
    • Willful Ambition: When your reaction is Orchidium, you gain +1 Fortitude Save, +1 for every 5 Alchemist Levels you have
    • DEX or INT


    Tier 4

    • -
    • Deady Poison: +2 to hit and +2 to damage with Simple Weapons.
    • Envenom the Heart: While your Poisoned Coating is active, hitting enemies that are immune to Poisons or Poison Damage makes them vulnerable to Poisons and Poison Damage for 12 seconds. Creatures you hit that are not immune to Poisons take 15% more Poison damage for a while.
    • Unbreakable Ambition: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +8 PRR.
    • DEX or INT



    Tier 5

    • Greater Wave of Poison: Cerulite SLA:
      • You infect enemies in a short cone with a deadly poison that eats away at them. After 6 seconds, target creatures take 1d6+8 Poison damage per Caster Level. This will Contaminate enemies. (MCL:20).
    • Fatal Poison: +2 to hit and +2 to damage with Simple Weapons. +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Range with Simple Weapons. For Darts, this Range bonus is +2 instead.
    • Toxic Augmentation: Striking Contaminated enemies will apply stacks of Vulnerable.
    • Sapping Ambition: While your Reaction is Orchidium, attacking with Simple Weapons gives a 10% chance to gain 10 temporary Spell Points +1 per Alchemist level.
    • Chemical Weapon: Passive: Your Simple Weapons gain +1[w]. Your simple ranged thrown weapons attack 15% faster.
    Please add the option to heal from negative energy to this tree, it could be a tier five effect for all I care, please just add it as the Dreadkeeper set meshes well this this!

    Also, please consider adding Medium Armor proficiency to this tree!
    Last edited by Lokeal_The_Flame; 01-16-2020 at 08:16 PM.

  6. #26
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Is it technically feasible for Poisoned Coating/Spellswords/Archer Imbuements to crit? Either by using their weapon's crit profile or spell critical? Even if the critical damage was 1.5x, this would help these types of abilities to scale better in epics.

    Could Fatal Poison be given +1 Stacking Bonus to Critical Multiplier for the melee simple weapons to give them a similar boost in comparison to all of the thrown weapon boosts in this tree?

    Additionally, while the intent is for the class to be robe-based; might we discuss adding light armor proficiency to the T5 of this tree? The other suggestions for displacement here for melee is nice, though it may need a trade off as a T5 multiselector.

    Finally, while this is more of a general alchemist question, it best fits in this tree. If a character were to take a rogue level for the assassin Poison Strikes, would they effect the -Name- Poison Imbuement spells? IE: If I took Heartseeker Poison Strike would my weapon imbuements also gain the rogue vorpal effects?

    Speaking of rogues, I like the suggestion of changing Venomed Blades to use spellpower instead of melee power. This could be a nice change for rogues and drow in general.

  7. #27
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Do enemies get saves against Vile Chemist's poisons?
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

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  8. #28
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokeal_The_Flame View Post
    Please add the option to heal from negative energy to this tree, it could be a tier five effect for all I care, please just ass it as the Dreadkeeper set meshes well this this!

    Also, please consider adding Medium Armor proficiency to this tree!
    just plain no, the tree is broken enough

    also good thing we will finally have the bards nightforge spike (which only trouble was the attack speed btw) arise again, sad thing the extra crit threat won't stack
    psykopeta is finally baconpletionist because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS: I post only in the latest thread shown in main page, in the weird case u want something from me, feel free to send pm

  9. #29

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    @SSG: What orb item do you expect this tree to utilize at level cap? The maximum nullification orb available to Alchemists is a cannith crafted +159. Even if you were to slot 154 Potency in another slot, you lose 5% dshot and the implement bonus not using an orb. The remaining non-orb offhand options are rather mediocre when paired with a thrower, so using an orb is ideal. But looking through the existing named orb itemization, it seems there's a gear gap for Vile Chemist.

    For reference, here's a breakdown of poison spellpower at level 30:
    202 Enhanced Nullification [Legendary Silverthreaded Belt]
    159 Nullification [Cannith Crafted orb]
    029 Spell Implement [Cannith Crafted orb]
    077 Insightful Potency [Legendary Sunken Slippers]
    038 Quality Potency [Legendary Sunken Slippers]
    004 Spellpower Remnant Tome
    060 USP Epic levels
    033 Heal ranks
    010 Heal bonus from 30 WIS bonus
    005 Heal Skill Tome
    015 Heal Augment
    001 Aasimar racial past life
    002 Completionist skills
    002 Racial Completionist skills
    010 USP Alchemist Vile Core 4
    010 Vile Chemist Venom Affinity 3
    015 Vile Chemist Envenom the Heart 3
    085 USP Fatesinger cores
    018 USP First Harmonic Cord
    006 Skills Second Harmonic Cord
    003 USP Inspire Courage
    015 Aria Negative Spell Power
    004 Morale Greater Heroisim
    001 Harper Core 1
    003 Epic Past Life: Martial Skill Mastery x3
    030 Epic Past Life: Divine Power Over Life and Death x3
    025 Potion of Superior Nihil
    015 Ship Crusader’s Chapel
    002 House Jorasco Skill Bonus to Heal

    879 poison spellpower
    + mythic/reaper gear

    I probably miscalculated some Bard buffs. Obviously that's a theoretical max for most players since it includes completionist, racial completionist, +8 stat tomes, +5 heal tome, +4 remnant tome, etc.

    With 20 Alch Vile Chemist, that's 52 * 9.79 = 509 poison dmg per hit not factoring in Bound Fate or the T4 15% vulnerability to poison. Fatesinger is used because it offers the highest spellpower modifiers. I'm not suggesting it's the ideal epic destiny for Vile Chemist, but there's plenty of synergy with it.

    That's also without filigree factored in. Probably makes sense to include Inevitable Grave 2pc for +2 INT (aka 2% doubleshot), 13 negative spellpower and +10 USP. 4pc Shattered Device is probably a no brainer. Haven't had time to test various filigree combinations.

    Quick and dirty/non-optimized gearset (basically swap out some pieces from Inquisitive setup I had):

    Head: Helm of the Final Watcher
    Necklace: Family Recruit Sigil
    Eyes: Collective Sight with 10 INS CON
    Trinket: Slave Lords Sheltering 45, Deception 14, Tendon Slice 14, Quality CON 4
    Chest: Wildwood Vest
    Back: Silver Dragonscale Capelet with 10 INS INT
    Wrist: Wildwood Wrists with 21 INT
    Waist: Silverthread Belt
    Ring1: Sigil of the Triumverate
    Ring2: Celestial Sapphire Ring with 21 CON
    Feet: Sunken Slippers with 5 Q INT
    Hands: Wildwood Gauntlets
    Main: Wide Open Sky
    Offhand: Cannith Crafted Orb 159 Nullification

    Assumes you take Light Armor Proficiency feat, which you have room for because of the 5 bonus Alchemist feats you get.
    Last edited by Carpone; 01-16-2020 at 09:46 AM.
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  10. #30
    Community Member stealing-monkey's Avatar
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    Angry Core issue should be like EK

    Since it's so much similar to EK it should add 10 poison sp per core to make it on par with the EK cores. Also no need for the +2 hit just make it +1 instead. On top of everything get rid of the 'stiffen skin' sla in replace in with a 'Poison Siphon' type attack that is similar if not exactly the same as 'Arcane siphon' except specifically adding the spellpower to poison.
    Jennafer~Quickhealz~Glitterjuice-Khyber

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealing-monkey View Post
    Poison coating isn't scaling with spell power at all, i had 1000+ poison sp while another had 350 and we were getting the same numbers. Also change 'Venomed Blades' to scale with poison spell power as well, would make sense since all the sudden changes to poison in the game.
    No. None of the enhancement trees on which venomed blade sits use spell power. This makes as much sense as making your spells scale with melee power.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealing-monkey View Post
    Poison coating isn't scaling with spell power at all, i had 1000+ poison sp while another had 350 and we were getting the same numbers. Also change 'Venomed Blades' to scale with poison spell power as well, would make sense since all the sudden changes to poison in the game.
    We haven't yet been able to replicate this internally - Things seem to be scaling fine. (For instance, going from zero Poison Spell Power to 1,000,000 Poison Spell Power is raising that number by the amount you'd expect it to). I'm going to hop on Lamannia in a bit and see if I can replicate it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    Could Fatal Poison be given +1 Stacking Bonus to Critical Multiplier for the melee simple weapons to give them a similar boost in comparison to all of the thrown weapon boosts in this tree?
    Everything we've seen so far from internal playtests to builds people have been putting together on Lamannia suggests that the melee builds do not need this to be competitive, while the thrown builds do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    Additionally, while the intent is for the class to be robe-based; might we discuss adding light armor proficiency to the T5 of this tree? The other suggestions for displacement here for melee is nice, though it may need a trade off as a T5 multiselector.
    Sticking to robes is one of the core decisions we made about the class. You can certainly take steps to get Armor proficiency on an Alchemist character, but we aren't planning on adding that here.

    Quote Originally Posted by stealing-monkey View Post
    Since it's so much similar to EK it should add 10 poison sp per core to make it on par with the EK cores. Also no need for the +2 hit just make it +1 instead. On top of everything get rid of the 'stiffen skin' sla in replace in with a 'Poison Siphon' type attack that is similar if not exactly the same as 'Arcane siphon' except specifically adding the spellpower to poison.
    We aren't aiming for exact Spell Power parity with Eldritch Knight here in this tree, especially as Alchemist has ways to access at least that much Spell Power from the Reaction system.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokeal_The_Flame View Post
    Please add the option to heal from negative energy to this tree, it could be a tier five effect for all I care, please just ass it as the Dreadkeeper set meshes well this this!

    Also, please consider adding Medium Armor proficiency to this tree!
    How did you get that past the profanity filter? o0

    Also, it does seem like VC should get some benefit from the Negative they're stacking, particularly since most Negative gear is thematically designed for PMs, so it comes with Neg Amp and such. Its almost like VC is being pushed into splashing Wiz.

    Maybe let Death Salve work on self after all. Not like Alch doesnt already have a Positive version of all its Negative spells anyway.

  14. #34
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Can a multiclass alchemist wear armor appropriate to the second class? With usual arcane failure chances?
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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian14 View Post
    Can a multiclass alchemist wear armor appropriate to the second class? With usual arcane failure chances?
    Yes! You can buy armor feats or get them from another class, and wear that armor. Arcane Spell Failure does apply.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  16. #36
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Everything we've seen so far from internal playtests to builds people have been putting together on Lamannia suggests that the melee builds do not need this to be competitive, while the thrown builds do.
    Are these builds mainly dagger-based using Vistani? Other simple weapon combos could use the boost. Especially since the T5s of this tree are skewed towards making simple throwing weapons great. Whereas the only real boost the simple melee weapons are getting is the threat/multiplier bonus combo if you're level 18 alchemist, and the +1W from T5.

    In that regard, perhaps I should rephrase the suggestion. May non-daggers get an additional +1 multiplier in that enhancement to increase their appeal? As Vistani certainly boosts daggers to a nice place.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    Are these builds mainly dagger-based using Vistani? Other simple weapon combos could use the boost. Especially since the T5s of this tree are skewed towards making simple throwing weapons great. Whereas the only real boost the simple melee weapons are getting is the threat/multiplier bonus combo if you're level 18 alchemist, and the +1W from T5.

    In that regard, perhaps I should rephrase the suggestion. May non-daggers get an additional +1 multiplier in that enhancement to increase their appeal? As Vistani certainly boosts daggers to a nice place.
    Every other simple weapon is either supported by Swash or KT, except Clubs (largely caster weapons), and Qstaff (which is supported by Monk/TA). So its not like there arent options to build around, and it needs to all be packaged into Alch itself.

  18. #38
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    How did you get that past the profanity filter? o0

    Also, it does seem like VC should get some benefit from the Negative they're stacking, particularly since most Negative gear is thematically designed for PMs, so it comes with Neg Amp and such. Its almost like VC is being pushed into splashing Wiz.

    Maybe let Death Salve work on self after all. Not like Alch doesnt already have a Positive version of all its Negative spells anyway.
    lol, thanks to you I was able to find that typo and fix it XD

    Was typing under low light, the D key is next to the S key!

  19. #39
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    I put this in the default "Alchemist Base Class" forum as well, but I feel like it might honestly fit better if it's here.

    This might be just my wishful thinking, but what's the chance we can get Alchemist added to the classes proficient with the Alchemist Grenades? They are darts, and the class is literally in their name Picture given as example to what I'm referring.


    And if I might be so bold as to push my own luck, if you guys give Alchemists proficiency with the Alchemist Grenades, would you be able to make their damage scale off Ranged power or Spell power? I would be so happy, and you'd be making some old thing relevant again. Maybe take the explosion damage, and make that the [W] damage instead of the weapon damage being "1" to make it scale? Maybe...make the reflex DC on them scale somehow too like how staves scale their DCs off Int? :3

    Maybe do the same with the https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Gloaming_Philter since it's one of the few named darts, and it's a similar weapon? (And to my knowledge, never really been worth having despite being ML 27)

    I'd ask for the weapon effects like the Alchemist's Vile Chemist Poison damage on the AoE explosion too, but I know you guys said you want to move away from ranged doing AoE, so, I'll ask for it, but I assume the answer is no on that one lol.

    P.S.: Even if none of this happens, I just wanted to say, I snuck some of these over to my Lam Alchemist through a character copy, just relying on the UMD to equip them (only needed to be 30 to equip the ML 16 ones shown lol) and throwing the spell potions followed by throwing these dart potions (So basically just throwing a metric F- Ton of explody potion bottles) around at enemies made me giggle.
    Last edited by SpardaX; 01-20-2020 at 10:55 PM.
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  20. #40
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spardax View Post
    i put this in the default "alchemist base class" forum as well, but i feel like it might honestly fit better if it's here.

    This might be just my wishful thinking, but what's the chance we can get alchemist added to the classes proficient with the alchemist grenades? They are darts, and the class is literally in their name picture given as example to what i'm referring.

    i tried to insert the image with [img] tags but it would just give a broken image, i dont know why. So i guess a link will suffice.

    And if i might be so bold as to push my own luck, if you guys give alchemists proficiency with the alchemist grenades, would you be able to make their damage scale off ranged power or spell power? I would be so happy, and you'd be making some old thing relevant again. Maybe take the explosion damage, and make that the [w] damage instead of the weapon damage being "1" to make it scale? Maybe do the same with the https://ddowiki.com/page/item:gloaming_philter since it's one of the few named darts, and it's a similar weapon? (and to my knowledge, never really been worth having despite being ml 27)

    i'd ask for the weapon effects like the alchemist's vile chemist poison damage on the aoe explosion too, but i know you guys said you want to move away from ranged doing aoe, so, i'll ask for it, but i assume the answer is no on that one lol.
    ftfy. You missing the i. and .jpg.

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