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  1. #1
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    Default Cleric Domains suggestions.

    Dungeons and Dragons Online is still missing some things. The Cleric Domains are works-in-progress.

    #1 Cerics are supposed to have 2 Domains each.

    #2 There should be Spell-like Abilities from each Domain. Domains are supposed to grant 9 spells each.
    Domains spells being converted to Spell-Like Abilities is an interesting idea, but they are too few.

    Current Domains have some abilities but they are often unrelated powers rather than grant Spells from the Domains.

    For Example, Sun Domain is missing Endure Elements, Heat Metal, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, and Prismatic Sphere. I know Endure Elements, Heat Metal, and Prismatic Sphere arent implemented ingame currently, but the others are.
    Last edited by Chaosticket1; 01-13-2020 at 11:41 AM.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    These were brought up during the initial discussions

    Keep in mind that with domains and 2 options you still only benefited from being able to add one or the other to your spell list per spell level.

    Also, what domains you had available depended upon the deity/pantheon choosen - I don't think there is enough of these available yet to implement this.

    Because of how they implemented domains, it would serve as a challenge to balance without also adding the limitations.

    ---
    As one that has just about run every domain, I will say the current ones are well implemented and each adds a new dimension to the class.

    I'm all for adding more domains, I like that players have options and not attracted to cookie-cutter builds.

  3. #3
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    As it is now having 2 Domains and having all abilities available would be still a good option for the Programmers as each of the current Domains is only half complete at best.

    For later
    If Clerics Had 2 Domains simultaneously and had to prepare only 1 Spell-Like Ability of each Spell Level that would still be more correct than currently.

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    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    This topic was discussed in depth when Cleric Domains were first introduced to the Player's Council.

    Members of the Player's Council made many, maybe more than many, suggestions on different concepts and other potential systems for handling Cleric Domains.

    The feat based system was the most practical solution to adding Cleric Domains to the game; from drawing board to implementation, in terms of cost (development time). There are a number of technological problems with doing using (or creating) other systems to support Cleric Domains. In simple terms it would cost way too much money to create a system that would better reflect either the 3.5 or 5.0 version of the PnP version of D&D. Even adding a second Cleric Domain for an individual character is impractical to implement under the current system without it being a large scale development project. To that end we have a simple Cleric Domain System that works pretty okay. Not that I couldn't be better, but it is a matter of cost and development time.

    The number of SLAs was another (or the same) topic that was beat like a dead horse by the PC. Technological limits, potentially useless spells in DDO, development cost, and game balance are all valid reasons that the Devs considered before making their final choices.

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    Also, for 10+ years, Clerics had no domains at all.
    Going from 0 to 1 already is a tremendous improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post

    The feat based system was the most practical solution to adding Cleric Domains to the game; from drawing board to implementation, in terms of cost (development time). There are a number of technological problems with doing using (or creating) other systems to support Cleric Domains. In simple terms it would cost way too much money to create a system that would better reflect either the 3.5 or 5.0 version of the PnP version of D&D. Even adding a second Cleric Domain for an individual character is impractical to implement under the current system without it being a large scale development project. To that end we have a simple Cleric Domain System that works pretty okay. Not that I couldn't be better, but it is a matter of cost and development time.

    The number of SLAs was another (or the same) topic that was beat like a dead horse by the PC. Technological limits, potentially useless spells in DDO, development cost, and game balance are all valid reasons that the Devs considered before making their final choices.
    That reasoning is essentially a blanket veto to all future gameplay development. "It would cost too much"

    And one I question. Many of the missing Domains spells already exist ingame on the Druid or Sorcerer/Wizard lists so it would just be reusing existing assets rather than programming in new abilities. They have many of the assets already exist. Air and Water domain on 1 character would crash the game code?

    DDO implementing Domains as a series of assorted Spell-Like Abilities and passive benefits is interesting, but still only 1 semi-domain. I look it up and it took 11 years and 7 months between Game Release and the introduction of domains.

    Games made before Dungeons and Dragons Online had Cleric domains more similar to the Tabletop RPG. Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 just outright made Domains(2 per Cleric, as per the original RPG) add spells to an individual Cleric's spell list so for example a Air Domain Cleric could use Call Lightning as a level 3 spell and Chain Lightning as a Level 6 spell. Baby steps to add extra spells from domain is possible, I know there are enhancement trees that add spells to spell-lists like the Warpriest tree can add Blur and Haste, or Radiant Servant adds Necrotic Ray and Sunburst. So its not impossible to patch that in.

    On this topic or any other talk about Dungeons and Dragons online its important to know something is being done.
    If they are shelving development then can they tell me their Game End-Of-Life plan?

  7. #7
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    That reasoning is essentially a blanket veto to all future gameplay development. "It would cost too much"

    And one I question. Many of the missing Domains spells already exist ingame on the Druid or Sorcerer/Wizard lists so it would just be reusing existing assets rather than programming in new abilities. They have many of the assets already exist. Air and Water domain on 1 character would crash the game code?

    DDO implementing Domains as a series of assorted Spell-Like Abilities and passive benefits is interesting, but still only 1 semi-domain. I look it up and it took 11 years and 7 months between Game Release and the introduction of domains.

    Games made before Dungeons and Dragons Online had Cleric domains more similar to the Tabletop RPG. Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 just outright made Domains(2 per Cleric, as per the original RPG) add spells to an individual Cleric's spell list so for example a Air Domain Cleric could use Call Lightning as a level 3 spell and Chain Lightning as a Level 6 spell. Baby steps to add extra spells from domain is possible, I know there are enhancement trees that add spells to spell-lists like the Warpriest tree can add Blur and Haste, or Radiant Servant adds Necrotic Ray and Sunburst. So its not impossible to patch that in.

    On this topic or any other talk about Dungeons and Dragons online its important to know something is being done.
    If they are shelving development then can they tell me their Game End-Of-Life plan?

    Given time the development team could create a far more powerful and complex system, but at what cost? DDO has a finite amount of development time (dollars); so its a typical decision made by the development team. The current system using feats required a "minimal" investment in development time. Creating a more complex system required a lot more time to develop, thus a substantially higher cost and would require other development tasks to be be shelved during that time. Whether it is the Pareto Principal (Rule of 80/20), life cycle management or something else is up to you to choose.
    The point I am trying to make is it was discussed in nauseam by the Player's Council, I am sure they were sick of hearing my griping and moaning by the end of the discussion. The end system is not what I wanted, but I understand why it came about.

    When it comes to SLAs, I don't know what to tell you beyond you probably not going to like any answer given.

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    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    On this topic or any other talk about Dungeons and Dragons online its important to know something is being done.
    If they are shelving development then can they tell me their Game End-Of-Life plan?
    not getting the development you or we want is not the same as shelving development. we're slated to get a whole new class in the next update, for example

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Also, for 10+ years, Clerics had no domains at all.
    Going from 0 to 1 already is a tremendous improvement.
    Going from 0.0 to 0.3 isn't really that much of an improvement, when there's supposed to be 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    Not that I couldn't be better, but it is a matter of cost and development time.
    They keep screwing around adding weird splatbook/homebrew classes, so the excuse that they don't have devs cycles is nonsense. Is the claim really that adding Warlock and Alchemist combined somehow is less work than finishing Cleric? Adding a core class to the game for real should take priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Going from 0.0 to 0.3 isn't really that much of an improvement, when there's supposed to be 2.

    They keep screwing around adding weird splatbook/homebrew classes, so the excuse that they don't have devs cycles is nonsense. Is the claim really that adding Warlock and Alchemist combined somehow is less work than finishing Cleric? Adding a core class to the game for real should take priority.
    I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, clerics don't need two domains in DDO. Strict feature parity with a particular PnP edition is simply unnecessary. As an additional complication, many PnP domain powers and spells are already available via enhancements. Smells like a lot of work to redesign all that just to be compliant with obsolete PnP rules. Domains in PnP are generally weaker than in DnD. One stronger domain or two weaker... shrug.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Domains in PnP are generally weaker than in DnD. One stronger domain or two weaker... shrug.
    Real domains are much weaker than DDO's excuse. If all someone cares about is upping the power creep some more, I can see why they'd prefer that.

    But Clerics didn't and don't need more raw power, they need the flexibility that domains would provide. They need that even more in DDO than p&p, because of restrictive base spell list in DDO. Devs are adding tons of new spells for Alchemist, but when was the last time Cleric got a significant number of spells added?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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    New spells would be nice. Bards could use some new spells as well!

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    The most basic issue is that any changes to any class would generally be a "buff" to the class.

    Sorcerers and Wizards still lack a Familiar. They would be like Druid's Animal Companion, and having a little pet that could maybe carry wands and scrolls, activate switches, deliver your touch spells, or sneak around to scout would be a big help.
    ================================================== ===================
    Cleric's only have 1 half-Domain. Yes having 2 would be a net boost to the Class.

    On the Tabletop RPG Domains and Turn Undead are the Cleric's "Class Features". Turn Undead functions very close to the tabletop.

    But Domains dont get the same support. The 0-3 Spell-Like Abilities granted by a single Domain are questionable, and looking at them many of them are actually bad in the Meta.

    Going through every current domain I can see changes. Some are understandable, as the powers would be almost useless. Others would work well because the spells already exist.

    -------------------------------------Destruction Domain grants NONE of the spells from the TTRPG. They still exist ingame.
    Inflict Light Wounds: Touch attack, 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5). [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
    Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20). [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Inflict Light Wounds, Mass: Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to any creatures. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Disintegrate: Makes one creature or object vanish. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Implosion: Kills one creature/round. [REUSABLE ASSET]

    Except for Shatter, which is a weapon effect ingame, these spells already exist in the game engine. Even if you just had Domains grant extra spells to the Cleric's spell list that would still be a gain of the spells Disintegrate and Earthquake either in the spell list, or as Spell-Like abilities.

    Instead the benefits of the current Destruction domain is bizarre. They have little connection with the original Cleric's Destruction Domain. "In Name Only" is the phrase.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sun Domain Spells

    Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
    Heat Metal: Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
    Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels, more against undead. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage). [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Sunbeam: Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Sunburst: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage. [REUSABLE ASSET]
    Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides. [REUSABLE ASSET]

    Current Sun Domain is missing Fire Shield, Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, and they are in the game engine already.
    ================================================== ====
    Ill bring it up again, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, games that came out in 2002 and 2006 respectively already tried and succeeded using a quick solution using existing assets. The 2 Domains granted the missing spells to the Cleric's list, just letting them prepare the domain spells like any other. Ingame the Divine Disciple does something similar with the Core enhancements adding a series of spells to your spell list, though only for Darkness or Light spells. Its not quite the same as having full Light and Darkness domains, but the point is that ITS POSSIBLE.

    The Archmage enhancement tree for the Wizard grants a new spell-like ability for every Core enhancement chosen. That is almost exactly how domains should work, just not require Action Points spent or the Enhancement tree system.

    The question is just Add spells to the list that need to be prepared? or have Domain spells as Spell-Like Abilities? Both are possible. Adds spells to the Cleric's Spell List by picking domains, but require the Spell-Like Ability versions to require the Divine Disciple tree.
    Last edited by Chaosticket1; 01-14-2020 at 10:24 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    Going through every current domain I can see changes. Some are understandable, as the powers would be almost useless. Others would work well because the spells already exist.

    -------------------------------------Destruction Domain grants NONE of the spells from the TTRPG. They still exist ingame.
    I appreciate the enthusiasm. I made similar comments a couple of years ago, and went in detail through every core D&D domain (including some that didn't come to DDO) with specific suggestions on how to adapt them to DDO.

    Failure to implement domains is just one data point in the decade-plus-long pattern of devs hating (or maybe just not giving a **** about) divines. I could talk about the proposal (thankfully withdrawn) to remove Turn Undead from the game and just replace it with a damage ability. I could talk about an entirely new game mechanic they developed, and only used for nerfing Heal & Mass Heal. I could talk about the itemization in original heroic GH, or in itemization in Sharn, and many points in-between. I could talk about enhancement trees that deliberately don't do what every other caster tree does do. I could talk about the case where they did make an improvement available to divines, but only if they included a nerf with it, too.

    They actively drove me away from playing Clerics, and at the same time also drove me away from giving them any money. The one's not changing until the other does! Maybe they'll listen to you, but I wouldn't count on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  15. #15
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Also, for 10+ years, Clerics had no domains at all.
    Going from 0 to 1 already is a tremendous improvement.
    Yup, a very good update overall, really made Clerics worth thinking about for custom builds.




    I feel like a few of them are a little weaker by proxy. Some level 5 options are barely noticeable, while others are super good.

    Destruction domain 5: item durability;
    Animal domain: 10 hp per cleric level;
    Strength: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity, if it is higher.
    Luck: You gain Displacement as an SLA. 10 SP, 6 second cooldown.



    IMO, Destruction domain could have got large sunder DCs, some passive fort bypass. A little more boosts for THF, like +1W with power attack on rather than doublestrike ( could swap DS into animal instead). The melee and ranged power progression could be +2 per stack, it is hardly noticeable when leveling up, War domain's +1 hit and base damage wins easily. (Filigrees rate every +1 damage against 3MP/RP)

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