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  1. #1
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    Default I think some of Metamagics are outdated.

    -- Current Metamagic
    Maximize: +25 SP cost / +150 Spellpower
    Empower: +15 SP cost / +75 Spellpower
    Intensify: +15 SP cost / +75 Spellpower
    Empower(Heal): +10 SP cost / +75 Healing Spellpower


    -- Past Metamagic
    Maximize: +200%(x3) SP cost / +100% damage
    Empower: +100%(x2) SP cost / +50% damage
    Empower(Heal): +50%(x1.5) SP cost / +50% damage



    I know Metamagics were changed once because they were somehow outdated. I think they are now outdated again.
    Actually, I don't think just giving spellpower isn't a good thing. They're overpowered at Heroics and less helpful at Epics.
    But, I'm not sure if it'll be good to change them into the past version since sorcerers are really crazy at High reaper epics these days.


    My idea is like this:
    Maximize: Your spells deal 20% more damage always and your caster level is increased by 1. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 30%
    Empower: Your spells deal 10% more damage always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%
    Empower(Heal): Your spells heal 15% more hit points always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%

    Still I'm not sure if it'll be better though.
    Last edited by Targal; 01-11-2020 at 11:25 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    -- Current Metamagic
    Maximize: +25 SP cost / +150 Spellpower
    Empower: +15 SP cost / +75 Spellpower
    Intensify: +15 SP cost / +75 Spellpower
    Empower(Heal): +10 SP cost / +75 Healing Spellpower


    -- Past Metamagic
    Maximize: +200%(x3) SP cost / +100% damage
    Empower: +100%(x2) SP cost / +50% damage
    Empower(Heal): +50%(x1.5) SP cost / +50% damage



    I know Metamagics were changed once because they were somehow outdated. I think they are now outdated again.
    Actually, I don't think just giving spellpower isn't a good thing. They're overpowered at Heroics and less helpful at Epics.
    But, I'm not sure if it'll be good to change them into the past version since sorcerers are really crazy at High reaper epics these days.


    My idea is like this:
    Maximize: Your spells deal 20% more damage always and your caster level is increased by 1. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 30%
    Empower: Your spells deal 10% more damage always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%
    Empower(Heal): Your spells heal 15% more hit points always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%

    Still I'm not sure if it'll be better though.

    We've been telling the devs this for literally years now. I like your idea. Hey devs, it would sell more pots in your store if you fixed max and empower. As of now nobody takes those feats anymore cause they dont scale.
    Last edited by capsela; 01-12-2020 at 02:16 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    We've been telling the devs this for literally years now. I like your idea. Hey devs, it would sell more pots in your store if you fixed max and empower. As of now nobody takes those feats anymore cause they dont scale.
    On heroic builds, these feats are basically all the spell power you'll ever want until the very last few levels. Even once you become level 20, 225 spell power isn't anything to sneeze at when using SLAs.

    Matter of fact, they're probably TOO powerful at lower levels. Letting a level 1 human whose best piece of equipment should grant 30 to a spell power of their choosing have access to feats increasing that total by 225 is a wee bit overdone.

    Scale the bonus by level.
    Scale the cost by the spell's level.

    It would make sense given that they gave a direct damage bonus by spell level. If metamagic additions are supposed to be force multiplier, by definition, applying those to higher level spells now multiplies more force, which would warrant higher costs.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    My idea is like this:
    Maximize: Your spells deal 20% more damage always and your caster level is increased by 1. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 30%
    Empower: Your spells deal 10% more damage always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%
    Empower(Heal): Your spells heal 15% more hit points always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%
    Right now you have the option to use or not use meta-magics in specific situations and on individual spells. What you suggest takes away that flexibility. That would not be an improvement.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Spl1tz's Avatar
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    I disagree.
    The metas are perfectly fine as they are, in fact, i'd say they need to even buff it.
    Not for heroics but for Epics.

    You need to be well geared and have the past lives to be able to hit mobs without them saving all the time.
    Not to mention the champions with resistances, you'd be blasting them a couple of times before they'd dead.
    Ultimately you'd end up losing a lot of mana with all those metas on and not able to finish most quests if you can't hit a shrine on time.
    Of course, this is a soloing scenario.

    I'd say Water and Air Savant have had the spotlight for far too long with Fire lagging behind.
    In fact, fire just NOW is able to shine again since the latest changes to Sorc.
    Something i have been waiting for since update 14, when they completely neutered fire.

    No.
    Enough nerfing for now.
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  6. #6
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    ...
    Still I'm not sure if it'll be better though.
    I would say it's not better and on the surface feels worse. My Sorcs NEVER turn off Max or Empower and I rarely have SP issues. The big problem is that they don't scale in Epics very nicely.

    What I would suggest to do is then scale them based on Character level but you risk a net nerf in Heroic doing that. So instead let's just let them scale based on EPIC level.

    Maximize:
    • 25 + 3 SP / Epic Level
    • 150 + 10 Spell power / epic level
    • @ level 20: +25 SP / +150 Spell Power
    • @ level 30: +55 SP / +250 Spell Power


    Empower:
    • 15 + 1 SP / Epic Level
    • 75 + 5 Spell power / epic level
    • @ level 20: +15 SP / +75 Spell Power
    • @ level 30: +25 SP / +125 Spell Power


    Empower Healing:
    • 10 + 1 SP / Epic Level
    • 75 + 5 Positive Spell power / epic level
    • @ level 20: +10 SP / +75 Spell Power
    • @ level 30: +15 SP / +125 Positive Spell Power

    Intensify:
    • Leave this one alone it's already Epic only

  7. #7
    Community Member Gniewomir's Avatar
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    Actually why we're thinking about updating the metas that everyone takes anyway instead of those like eschew materials, which i cannot imagine someone would take?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Right now you have the option to use or not use meta-magics in specific situations and on individual spells. What you suggest takes away that flexibility. That would not be an improvement.
    Actually agreed, but I think the current metamagics are like less situational these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spl1tz View Post
    I disagree.
    The metas are perfectly fine as they are, in fact, i'd say they need to even buff it.
    Not for heroics but for Epics.
    Enough nerfing for now.
    Having empower or intensify at 30 lvl is like ridiculous since you can have 1000 spellpower, but It only boosts 75 each - which means I'd rather take other useful feats instead of them. I don't think they are perfectly fine. Do you think It's fine that you can kill most of heroic trashes with Maximize while there is actually no difference between turning on and off all metamagics(Maximize+Empower+intensify) to kill epic trashes? It's quite weird for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    I would say it's not better and on the surface feels worse. My Sorcs NEVER turn off Max or Empower and I rarely have SP issues. The big problem is that they don't scale in Epics very nicely.

    What I would suggest to do is then scale them based on Character level but you risk a net nerf in Heroic doing that. So instead let's just let them scale based on EPIC level.

    Maximize:
    • 25 + 3 SP / Epic Level
    • 150 + 10 Spell power / epic level
    • @ level 20: +25 SP / +150 Spell Power
    • @ level 30: +55 SP / +250 Spell Power


    Empower:
    • 15 + 1 SP / Epic Level
    • 75 + 5 Spell power / epic level
    • @ level 20: +15 SP / +75 Spell Power
    • @ level 30: +25 SP / +125 Spell Power


    Empower Healing:
    • 10 + 1 SP / Epic Level
    • 75 + 5 Positive Spell power / epic level
    • @ level 20: +10 SP / +75 Spell Power
    • @ level 30: +15 SP / +125 Positive Spell Power

    Intensify:
    • Leave this one alone it's already Epic only
    I guess this idea of scaling SP and spell power is decent. though I'm afraid of the total value of spell power boost... or legit with the extreme SP cost?
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  9. #9
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    While for a long time I have said that metamagic feats (and metamagic efficiency enhancements) need a review because their cost-effectiveness is not profitable, I am against changing these feats if that implies a greater cost in spell points. Not all classes have the huge spell point pool of sorcereres and fvs, and that could make them unfeasible for the other classes. So no to the proposals reflected here.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  10. #10
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    While for a long time I have said that metamagic feats (and metamagic efficiency enhancements) need a review because their cost-effectiveness is not profitable, I am against changing these feats if that implies a greater cost in spell points. Not all classes have the huge spell point pool of sorcereres and fvs, and that could make them unfeasible for the other classes. So no to the proposals reflected here.
    Yep. Well said.
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  11. #11
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    Do casters really need any help right now? Seems to me they are completly dominant. Lets get melee some help before we give casters any more help
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  12. #12
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gniewomir View Post
    Actually why we're thinking about updating the metas that everyone takes anyway instead of those like eschew materials, which i cannot imagine someone would take?
    this is a good point

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    On heroic builds, these feats are basically all the spell power you'll ever want until the very last few levels. Even once you become level 20, 225 spell power isn't anything to sneeze at when using SLAs.

    Matter of fact, they're probably TOO powerful at lower levels. Letting a level 1 human whose best piece of equipment should grant 30 to a spell power of their choosing have access to feats increasing that total by 225 is a wee bit overdone.

    Scale the bonus by level.
    Scale the cost by the spell's level.

    It would make sense given that they gave a direct damage bonus by spell level. If metamagic additions are supposed to be force multiplier, by definition, applying those to higher level spells now multiplies more force, which would warrant higher costs.
    How about max/emp/emp heal/intensify scale per character level, and all metamagic costs add a % to the base spell cost. If you have several effects that modify a spell's % cost (like savant capstones and metamagics that increase, or items and epic levels that reduce % costs), they would stack additively (eg +50% + 20% + 10% - 10% - 8% = +78%).

    For maximize, the spellpower scaling could look like 40 + 4 spellpower per heroic level + 8 per epic level (44 at level 1, 152 at level 24, 200 at level 30), and half that for empower/emp heal/intensify (20 + 2 per heroic level + 4 per epic level).

    Sp cost increase could be something like twice the current meta cost in percentage (eg 25 sp = +50%). Since non-epic spells top out at 50 sp, the sp costs would be the same on the most expensive spells, and much cheaper on the cheapest.

    Scaling costs/spellpower makes it actually worthwhile to use metamagics on cheaper spells, but not overpowered at low levels.

  14. #14
    Community Member mr420247's Avatar
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    Sorcs are still the only casters that can have viable epic spell reaper dps

    So def some fixes are needed if you wanted to be viable on the others cleric, fvs, druid, bard, lock, wiz

    but problem then is how do you tone down balance sorcs so there not boosted to the next level

    The epic caster feats def need a over haul too if they look at meta magics like hell ball should not be so much worse then eb

    3 x the cost for 1/3 the dps output is lame
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  15. #15
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    -- Current Metamagic
    Maximize: +25 SP cost / +150 Spellpower
    Empower: +15 SP cost / +75 Spellpower
    Intensify: +15 SP cost / +75 Spellpower
    Empower(Heal): +10 SP cost / +75 Healing Spellpower


    -- Past Metamagic
    Maximize: +200%(x3) SP cost / +100% damage
    Empower: +100%(x2) SP cost / +50% damage
    Empower(Heal): +50%(x1.5) SP cost / +50% damage



    I know Metamagics were changed once because they were somehow outdated. I think they are now outdated again.
    Actually, I don't think just giving spellpower isn't a good thing. They're overpowered at Heroics and less helpful at Epics.
    But, I'm not sure if it'll be good to change them into the past version since sorcerers are really crazy at High reaper epics these days.


    My idea is like this:
    Maximize: Your spells deal 20% more damage always and your caster level is increased by 1. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 30%
    Empower: Your spells deal 10% more damage always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%
    Empower(Heal): Your spells heal 15% more hit points always. Your SP Maximum is decreased by 10%

    Still I'm not sure if it'll be better though.
    I just KNEW the word 'Reaper' was going to be said.

    Reaper is not the standard game mode for most players, please stop asking for changes in the heroic game
    for the sole benefit of the minority that play reapers. There are far more things requiring updates than meta magic feats.

  16. #16
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    We've been telling the devs this for literally years now. I like your idea. Hey devs, it would sell more pots in your store if you fixed max and empower. As of now nobody takes those feats anymore cause they dont scale.
    I use them in Heroics, on SLA's, or for stuff like NEB, where I want every bit I can scrape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gniewomir View Post
    Actually why we're thinking about updating the metas that everyone takes anyway instead of those like eschew materials, which i cannot imagine someone would take?
    If Eschew worked on rezzes, Stoneskin, Death Pact, etc - I'd definitely consider it. But until then...
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  17. #17
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    certainly Eschew should work on every component, that seems like an absolute bare minimum first step to making it worthwhile

    what if Eschew also did something like give a bonus to Spell Penetration, because it's eschewing the enemy resistance? eh? eh?

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    If they made the feats scale better in epics something like this might be worth it. I dont see that anyone needs spell damage to scale higher in heroics.
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  19. #19
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    NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    As of now nobody takes those feats anymore cause they dont scale.
    You mean you don't take them. I know for a fact that I do, which disproves your claim of "nobody".

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