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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaeveTuohy View Post
    People calling for a nerf were not a "minority."
    You have proof of this? It's often the case that it's a vocal minority that calls for these things. The forums are not a balanced representation of DDO players which is ironic considering the vocal minority's quest for balance™.

  2. #22
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loholt-UK View Post
    You have proof of this? It's often the case that it's a vocal minority that calls for these things. The forums are not a balanced representation of DDO players which is ironic considering the vocal minority's quest for balance™.
    Yeah I agree. I dont see anyone talking about how inquis needs to be nerfed in game. Especially the leveling game, which has many undead quests where anything that can throw fireballs/firewalls is far better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeah I agree. I dont see anyone talking about how inquis needs to be nerfed in game. Especially the leveling game, which has many undead quests where anything that can throw fireballs/firewalls is far better.
    Exactly
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  4. #24
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    Inquisitive needed nerfing bad. If you cant see this then you are just playing the game with blinders on. It has removed melee from game all together. Casters need dialing back as well and would start with taking away the stupid sp balls that drop in reaper. Limiting there rescources might slow them down a bit. There is no build options in game anymore. Warlock, Sorc, inquis and maybe wizzie at end game or you are completely gimp. There is no argument here. And this game thrives on build options and it for the most purposes gone.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The "melee is dead" threads predate inquisitor by 2+ years.

    Two separate issues are being conflated into the same issue here.

    When this new thing gets its nerf, and they release alchemist, 'm sure melee will be dead because of alchemist too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The "melee is dead" threads predate inquisitor by 2+ years.

    Two separate issues are being conflated into the same issue here.

    When this new thing gets its nerf, and they release alchemist, 'm sure melee will be dead because of alchemist too.
    The only thing inqui changed (and also the shiradi update) was it was the first time the devs really let a ranged build be fully good on its own merit, without applying a different standard for balance than melee. That double standard is what brought arbitrary nerfs before like monkcher, manyshot and rxb doubleshot. The idea that ranged has to be capped so that melee can stay relevant...it was balance welfare.

    There is no need for that. Melee is still fully viable even if it's not artificially earmarked as max dps - the only reason you should need to play melee is you like playing melee.
    Last edited by droid327; 01-11-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Inquisitive not OP, on a single life toon

    `Inquisitive is not OP on a single life toon. It can be OP on a multi-life high RxP toon, with all the TR and reaper benefits. If they want to dial down Inquisitive, they should dial down the synergies with TR and reaper stats. Inquisitive is one way a single life toon at cap with really good gear can participate (barely) in raids and legendary content with the TR gods.

    Nerf Inquisitive, and they nerf a QOL feature for single life toons at cap.

  8. #28
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    Default Sarcastic response (that some may be seriously thinking but not saying)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxtan View Post
    `Inquisitive is not OP on a single life toon. It can be OP on a multi-life high RxP toon, with all the TR and reaper benefits. If they want to dial down Inquisitive, they should dial down the synergies with TR and reaper stats. Inquisitive is one way a single life toon at cap with really good gear can participate (barely) in raids and legendary content with the TR gods.

    Nerf Inquisitive, and they nerf a QOL feature for single life toons at cap.
    BUT MY EPEEN!

    *ermagerdnerdrage*

    I'd rather see new blood get turned away from their inability to contribute and see the game die a slow and painful death as a result of no new blood sticking around to become paying players to replace the old blood that leave for various reasons than to have any affront to my e-peen by having these noobs contribute even slightly when compared to my uber-completionist character! RAWR!

    ________________________________

    While I do agree that time invested should equate more character power, the gap shouldn't be as big as it is, and inquisitive did not negate that gap, but it did reduce it slightly.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by vryxnr View Post
    BUT MY EPEEN!

    *ermagerdnerdrage*

    I'd rather see new blood get turned away from their inability to contribute and see the game die a slow and painful death as a result of no new blood sticking around to become paying players to replace the old blood that leave for various reasons than to have any affront to my e-peen by having these noobs contribute even slightly when compared to my uber-completionist character! RAWR!

    ________________________________

    While I do agree that time invested should equate more character power, the gap shouldn't be as big as it is, and inquisitive did not negate that gap, but it did reduce it slightly.
    My 42 life, 36 RxP toon with level 17 sharn and level 21 borderland's gear at character level 24 does over twice the damage as my zero life, zero RxP toon with legendary sharn gear at level 30. Both Arty with the same Inquisitive enhancements. It's not Inquisitive that needs to be nerfed.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loholt-UK View Post
    You have proof of this? It's often the case that it's a vocal minority that calls for these things. The forums are not a balanced representation of DDO players which is ironic considering the vocal minority's quest for balance™.
    The same proof you have that they are, hence the quite marks for "so-called."

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeah I agree. I dont see anyone talking about how inquis needs to be nerfed in game. Especially the leveling game, which has many undead quests where anything that can throw fireballs/firewalls is far better.
    I see it frequently.

    Yes, IQs are suboptimal against undead. But pointing out that fire spells are better at killing undead is not much of an argument, is it?

    And yes, they also need to nerf the classes that cast those.
    Last edited by MaeveTuohy; 01-11-2020 at 04:23 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    I'm more inclined to believe that they're running with nerfs because they don't have enough money in the budget for more than a kayak when it comes time to navigate the forums. The tears could swiftly get to the point where they may need at least an aircraft carrier to keep from getting swamped.

    Know how I know I'm right? A decade and a half on MMO forums, with some of that time spent as a moderator, navigating the tears of the "this needs nerfed" That is, after all, where the "rock, paper, scissors" meme came from.
    They have money, but they have to spend it on paid FMLA and mandatory sick hours in MA.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nerfing improves the game for folks who focus their feedback on how others play the game differently from themselves.

    QoL improvements help everyone. Very worst scenario they still hurt no one.
    100% this.

    Perhaps the narrative that there should be no OP classes in the game is flawed. It's entirely possible, and likely true, that having a handful of "easy button" classes/enhancement trees around would make the game a better place.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    100% this.

    Perhaps the narrative that there should be no OP classes in the game is flawed. It's entirely possible, and likely true, that having a handful of "easy button" classes/enhancement trees around would make the game a better place.
    It is a flawed idea, along with the ideas that they can't nerf anything, that any build that performs better than someone else needs a nerf, etc.

    Most of the ideas in this thread, in fact.

    Anyone that boils their opinion down to one issue or idea isn't using the kind of thought needed to create desirable characteristics in the game.

    Someone using rational thought has to value the pros/cons of a decision individually, and has to be able to list advantages and disadvantages of any action.

    Until we see what changes were made, many of these forum posts are very revealing as to how little facts matter in forming opinions.

    I'll be forming my opinion once I see the changes.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    Inquisitive needed nerfing bad. If you cant see this then you are just playing the game with blinders on. It has removed melee from game all together. Casters need dialing back as well and would start with taking away the stupid sp balls that drop in reaper. Limiting there rescources might slow them down a bit. There is no build options in game anymore. Warlock, Sorc, inquis and maybe wizzie at end game or you are completely gimp. There is no argument here. And this game thrives on build options and it for the most purposes gone.
    .
    You're a glass half-empty guy aren't you. I translate your post for glass half-full types as "Melee needs a buff to bring it into line with ranged and casting". Why call for nerfs to ruin other people's fun when you can ask for enhancements to improve your own fun? It just seems a bit mean to me.
    Last edited by Loholt-UK; 01-11-2020 at 07:55 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    It is a flawed idea, along with the ideas that they can't nerf anything, that any build that performs better than someone else needs a nerf, etc.

    Most of the ideas in this thread, in fact.

    Anyone that boils their opinion down to one issue or idea isn't using the kind of thought needed to create desirable characteristics in the game.

    Someone using rational thought has to value the pros/cons of a decision individually, and has to be able to list advantages and disadvantages of any action.

    Until we see what changes were made, many of these forum posts are very revealing as to how little facts matter in forming opinions.

    I'll be forming my opinion once I see the changes.
    You make some good points. I would add that some of the comments on this thread do seem more about what actions are best for alignment to the strategy/vision of the game, rather than just an individual action in isolation. That begs the question, what is the vision and strategy for DDO? Any actions should be aligned to them. I know what I would like them to be, but I am uncertain what they are for SSG.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokejumper89 View Post
    Nerfing things is just a higher priority. Horses were OP, so they got nerfed. Inquisitive is too useful, so its getting nerfed. Really, we cant allow the game to become too convenient, that would just be bad. Poor QOL is the one core DnD mechanic left!
    Horses were not nerfed because they were OP. They were "nerfed" because some jackwagons were too self-centered to realize their actions were annoying other players.

  18. #38
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    I'm getting what I wanted.

    You aren't.

    Keep whining, I'll keep winning.
    A lot of assumption there. So far, none of the nerfs, enacted or proposed, will adversely affect me, and leaving them alone won't benefit me, so your logic is flawed, which is what I saw reading and responding to your first post. The "nerf this, nerf that" crowd has never been "the most intelligent people in the game", just the loudest. I guess you're unfamiliar with the meme I mentioned:

    Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine as they are. Rock.

    You can sub either of them out, so Nerf Scissors, Rock is fine as they are. Paper. But this is a meme for a reason; the "intelligent" people always want to nerf someone else, and it's invariably someone that is outperforming them, for whatever reason. The "intelligent" people in swtor got the Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight Smash skill nerfed by decking out a Marauder in full PvP gear and using smash on naked targets. Seems to me, if there had been a legit issue with this skill, they wouldn't have had to stack the deck like they did for their "demonstration". I can't help but wonder, also, how many attempts it took to get that "perfect storm" for a video.

    Nerfs here are called for any time a class beats someone else's kill count in a quest. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to press the default X to look at the quest log, and from there, they only have to be intelligent enough to read, and do a little math to see if someone's numbers are higher than their own. From there, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to start whining that someone outperformed them. This isn't a situation that's unique to DDO either, hence we have the meme.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    But who cares if they are OP. How does it affect YOU that other people are having fun with an "easy" button.

    That's like saying you ordered vanilla ice cream, but you demand the ice cream shop stop selling other flavors because it looks more fun/tastes better than vanilla ice cream.



    Also, is there a particular reason people want these nerfs so badly (I'm not just speaking about Inquisitive, but nerfs in general)? Is it because of raids? General questing? Is it in heroic you have these issues, or endgame?
    Keep in mind there are different skill levels of players in DDO, for one reason or another, that don't run the hardest content and enjoy these op builds for whatever reason.

    I'm just saying that nerfs are dumb in a general sense because the people that call for them basically complain and whine because they can't play the way THEY want to so no one should play any way that effects them negatively.

    As for casters being op vs melee..... have you LOOKED at the 3.5 PHB lately? What a 20 fighter/barbarian can do and what a level 20 caster can do are on a whole different level. Is it perfect, no, but even that shows games can be unbalanced but still fun.
    I have 5 inq builds atm, heroic, epic or legendary, r1 or 10 no matter what you play, inqs are dumb op in all of it.

    See the last newer raids, they are made for inqs.

    It is not a single player game like some players and SSG want to make it.

    Also this game is not D&D anymore.

  20. #40
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevergiveup356 View Post
    I have 5 inq builds atm, heroic, epic or legendary, r1 or 10 no matter what you play, inqs are dumb op in all of it.

    See the last newer raids, they are made for inqs.

    It is not a single player game like some players and SSG want to make it.

    Also this game is not D&D anymore.
    Anymore? When was it ever? Not in the almost 9 years I've been here, that's for sure. It was close, and it had/has that D&D feel, but it was never D&D. "But the D20 system" or similar arguments are invalid, KotoR had the same system, how much D&D was it? Ranger AA? Not unless you splashed a level of Arcane somewhere in there. So we can quit with the "it's not D&D anymore", since it never really has been. It's got the settings/modules, and it's got the name, but the similarities stop there.

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