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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    At what point after releasing a paid feature is it considered okay to rebalance it? 1 year? 2 years? More? Never?
    If its going to need "rebalancing", then it should never had been released in that condition to start with. IMHO it was released op just to sell it.

  2. #222
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    If its going to need "rebalancing", then it should never had been released in that condition to start with. IMHO it was released op just to sell it.
    Exactly. Those that got it with sharn or via sharn favor It is ok BUT to know you are going to nerf something and THEN sell it?
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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Let's play a quick hypothetical game - say you're working on DDO in the year 2035, and over the last 6 months, you've been working with art to make a new race - let's say, Tabaxi or something. They look great, they have cool tails, they can run really fast - good stuff. It's coming out next update and you're really excited.

    But oh no! Turns out a different race - like, uhhh... Thri-Kreen. Oh god, they're so OP. Turns out their one-man-band Bard synergies are just tearing up the meta. Almost all r10 completions are just 100% Thri-Kreen, people on the forums have caught wind of this and are very upset. You've gotta tone em down. It's hurting endgame - in fact, it's hurting the whole game. Everyone's got four arms and there's no way to just buff the other 32 player-races, it's clearly Thri-Kreen that are the outlier.

    What do you do? Do you hold back Tabaxi to safely nerf Thri-Kreen? How long does Tabaxi wait, implemented fully but disabled, before you feel safe enough to release it? Do you release Tabaxi first and then wait on the nerf? How long would you be able to wait before being able to "safely" nerf Thri-Kreen? What timing would make the players the least angry? If there's a right answer here, let me know.
    You heard it here, folks! We'll have Thri-Kreen by 2035!

    Not gonna lie, they're my second-favorite not-just-different-shape-and-size-humans race in D&D that's so fun to be playable (behind kobolds, naturally.)

    Though, really, Dark Sun would be such a cool setting for DDO.. and with Dark Sun comes.. psionics!

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I'll do just fine on whatever the META is -
    Have you learned that if you chase the Meta you are going to occasionally get hit by the nerf bat? That should be ALWAYS factored in.

    It's like people want the chocolate cake but are shocked when they can't fit into their fav jeans anymore.

    If you look around the party and 4 of 5 players are running Miniature Giant Space Hamsters, odds are good that Miniature Giant Space Hamsters will be getting a balance pass.


    - but I like the fact that Inquisitive can run just fine on any class, so I'm not just limited to [insert class here].
    I think you may have inadvertently underscored the greater problem here - an enhancement tree has become more valuable than a class. Not the way it's supposed to work.
    Last edited by Fenrisulven7; 01-09-2020 at 09:26 PM.

  5. #225
    Community Member MilleXIV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    At what point after releasing a paid feature is it considered okay to rebalance it? 1 year? 2 years? More? Never?
    I mean I’m a fairly new player but whenever it’s clear there’s an issue. Holding back nerfs, or choosing not to nerf content just because it’s paid just leads to a reputation of being “pay to win”.

  6. #226
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    /background

    "Giant space hamsters are a species of megafauna bred by spelljamming gnomes. As said gnomes are the notorious tinker gnomes of Krynn, you probably have figured out all the ways that this went wrong. They are normally used as a propulsion source, though they are also raised for meat by terrestrial colonies... Miniature giant space hamsters were bred by gnomes from traditional giant space hamster stock. The gnomes gave up this breeding program when they realised that a miniature giant space hamster was indistinguishable from a regular hamster."

    Giant-space-hamster-2e.jpg
    Last edited by Fenrisulven7; 01-09-2020 at 09:27 PM.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    If its going to need "rebalancing", then it should never had been released in that condition to start with.
    That puts a pretty tremendous amount of pressure on our shoulders if we're literally never allowed to nerf anything that has ever been released because it shouldn't have ever been released that way in the first place. Sometimes we're going to be wrong, and when we're wrong, what timeline would be acceptable to avoid the complaint that this was some sinister plot? If 1 year was too short, 2 years? 5 years? At what point does it change from "this was a cruel bait and switch and should be illegal" to "ah, they're doing balance adjustments" - if ever?
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 01-09-2020 at 09:22 PM.
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  8. #228
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    At what point after releasing a paid feature is it considered okay to rebalance it? 1 year? 2 years? More? Never?
    I think you should set this value based on what makes sense on your end. The goal is for you to communicate your process, so that players understand what is going to happen. I'm okay with a patch day 1, as long as this is a communicated process, as leaving an imbalance always lets the min-maxers get much further ahead, and they don't need the help and it is not good for the health your game to let them get too far ahead.

    If you leave every new purchase OP until the next one, it creates a permanent rift between the haves and have nots. Your design goal should be for the big purchasers to get rewards first, but give others chance to catch up - similar to what you did before reaper. People will pay a lot to get something first, especially if it has a cool or unique cosmetic to show off.

    If you want to make your new release OP for sales purposes, give a temporary boost with the pack. Be clear it is temporary and for those who make early purchases, and for what period of time. "Core 5 Occult Slayer has been increased from 100 HP to 500 HP for the month of January". This let's players plan around your changes.

    Lastly, don't believe the power player that says they will not play a class if it is not powerful enough. Eventually, they will play that class for the past rewards, and they might even purchase their way through it. I played every class even though I really only enjoyed rogue, because I wanted those tasty rewards and I knew (thought?) I could return to what I enjoyed. I purchased my way through the least enjoyable classes, but only because there was somewhere fun to go.

    You might need to do something with reaper rewards if they are so big that players are ignoring your sales devices (new class/tree), but I would hope your content sales model prevents that from being a requirement - as I understand the can of worms that would be.
    Last edited by nokowi; 01-09-2020 at 09:33 PM.
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  9. #229
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    If its going to need "rebalancing", then it should never had been released in that condition to start with.
    That's unrealistic. I've never been in game where the devs could predict all the tricksy ways players could synergize content in unbalancing ways.

    I've even seen exploits sneak past veteran playtesters in Mechwarrior.

    Asking that something not be released until it's completely balanced is unreasonable. Druids would still be locked up on Lamannia.

  10. #230
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That puts a pretty tremendous amount of pressure on our shoulders if we're literally never allowed to nerf anything that has ever been released because it shouldn't have ever been released that way in the first place. Sometimes we're going to be wrong, and when we're wrong, what timeline would be acceptable to avoid the complaint that this was some sinister plot? If 1 year was too short, 2 years? 5 years? At what point does it change from "this was a cruel bait and switch and should be illegal" to "ah, they're doing balance adjustments" - if ever?
    You could release things aiming for the middle of the pack and then adjust them upwards if it's needed instead of aiming for the top tier for everything new you release and then having to nerf it afterwards.

    Just a thought.

    The fact that this solution hasn't occurred to anyone at Turbine or SSG speaks worlds about your design philosophy. The new shiny thing HAS TO be the most powerful because otherwise, who would buy it, right? And that means you ALWAYS have to have the new shiny thing be powerful enough to cause balance problems that will lead to a nerf (that just *coincidentally* happens as the next new shiny is being released.

    But this has never happened before *cough*Warlock*cough*Vistani*cough*
    Last edited by HungarianRhapsody; 01-09-2020 at 09:29 PM.
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  11. #231
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    ALL content is subject to rebalancing over time as needed. Always has been, always will be.

    It would be more productive if players accepted that fact, and instead directed their energies to reviewing/playtesting the proposed balance changes when they appear on Lammania.

    And above all, have fun with the game.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    You could release things aiming for the middle of the pack and then adjust them upwards if it's needed instead of aiming for the top tier for everything new you release and then having to nerf it afterwards.

    Just a thought.
    That's what we try to do. Do you really think this is all some sinister plot we've deviously concocted in some meeting somewhere?
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  13. #233
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisulven7 View Post
    Have you learned that if you chase the Meta you are going to occasionally get hit by the nerf bat? That should be ALWAYS factored in.

    It's like people want the chocolate cake but are shocked when they can't fit into their fav jeans anymore.

    If you look around the party and 4 of 5 players are running Miniature Giant Space Hamsters, odds are good that Miniature Giant Space Hamsters will be getting a balance pass.




    I think you may have inadvertently underscored the greater problem here - an enhancement tree has become more valuable than a class. Not the way it's supposed to work.
    That's why you don't "chase" the meta. When you TR at least once a month, then your character is never going to get hit with the nerf bat. Your current build might, but that doesn't matter. You just move to the next build. I'm not even playing an Inquisitive right now. I've been sitting in Sorcerer for the last 2 months (and I did finally get that ADQ 20th reward!).

    Inquisitive isn't substantially more powerful than other high performing builds (note that I said builds, not classes). It's very good and it should probably be dialed back a little, but it's GOOD that there is an option for people to use if they want a past life in a class that they don't enjoy. I don't have a problem with balance fixes. I do have a problem with the way that SSG went about it (and I hope that they don't swing too hard with their nerf hammer like they did with Monk and arguably Warlock).
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  14. #234
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That's what we try to do. Do you really think this is all some sinister plot we've deviously concocted in some meeting somewhere?
    I don't think it's sinister at all. You make the new thing better so you can sell it. That isn't sinister. It's just shortsighted.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
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  15. #235
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    At what point after releasing a paid feature is it considered okay to rebalance it? 1 year? 2 years? More? Never?
    rebalancing is fine, but history of rebalancing here has been nerfbatting it into the ground and not worth playing. small adjustments with the open door for more if needed is a better approach. holy sword/pally - nerf'd into the ream of horrible, warlock was nerfbatted how many times and they are now not even that great at trash dps. it was probably one rebalance to make forum trolls happy too many.
    Member of "Guild of the Black Dragons" & "Swords of the Light" on Sarlona. Proud "Last" member of Caffeine - we aint stragicially savy.
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  16. #236
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    Im pretty sure one of the topics in a meeting to choose a new coffee brand is how you can make melees more frustating to play.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I don't think it's sinister at all. You make the new thing better so you can sell it. That isn't sinister. It's just shortsighted.
    But do you actually think that this happens? That we sit down and specifically, deliberately do this? We have meetings about it with marketing, we go over how long we should wait - you really truly think we do this in real life?
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That puts a pretty tremendous amount of pressure on our shoulders if we're literally never allowed to nerf anything that has ever been released because it shouldn't have ever been released that way in the first place. Sometimes we're going to be wrong, and when we're wrong, what timeline would be acceptable to avoid the complaint that this was some sinister plot? If 1 year was too short, 2 years? 5 years? At what point does it change from "this was a cruel bait and switch and should be illegal" to "ah, they're doing balance adjustments" - if ever?
    I've no problem with balancing at all...whenever it needs to happen. I see the problem as another way that people who join the game after <insert nerf> will be further behind the curve when they start playing. Those who got to use/abuse Amber/Impossible Demands/Inq/whatever made very fast gains from their new shiny. Folks starting up after the nerfs progress much slower and will hear vets saying things like, "don't bother with Warlock they suck now."

    Anyway maybe a process should be put put in place:

    Release to Lama (2-3 times or whatever)
    Release to Live
    30 day review and announce findings
    90 review and nerf/boost
    180 day review and nerf/boost
    Done and moves into standard DDO lifecycle

    In an ideal world this would happen behind the QA wall (and I'm sure it does), but reality is that in a game like DDO you will never catch all the things that could blow balance out of the water and still get new shinys in the game at a pace the players would like. It a dev-player catch 22.

  19. #239
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    But do you actually think that this happens? That we sit down and specifically, deliberately do this? We have meetings about it with marketing, we go over how long we should wait - you really truly think we do this in real life?
    i think you have been given multiple opportunities in this thread to give us reasons to believe you, and chosen not to take them

    this isn't a value judgment (again, speaking for myself). it's just you asked how you could convince us, people offered you ways to do so, you didn't take any of them up on it

  20. #240
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Wow, you are clever. I can see why you're on the council.

    My point on how wizards are required to slow dance within arms reach of mobs in r10 to kill them with wail is entirely missed by the mental giants in this thread.

    Whilst inquisitives can murder mobs while in a different timezone comfortably sipping a latte.
    If you use wail in R10 and are dying in melee range you may want to take enlarge and do what other successful wizards do and use ranged spells so you don't get hit. ie far away like inquis. May not be a reliable source commenting on inquis being op vs a melee wizard. Anything is op vs melee in R10 much less a caster melee.

    One of the BEST wizards on sarlona (firegoddess) has everything dead by the time he got to melee range.
    Member of "Guild of the Black Dragons" & "Swords of the Light" on Sarlona. Proud "Last" member of Caffeine - we aint stragicially savy.
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