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  1. #101
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    i think you may have misquoted, i didn't advocate nerfs only patches.

    just to reiterate though, i advocate only nerfing a p2p option when buffing an f2p option, such as thf or stealth.

    i also think it's instructive that nobody in this thread is pointing at those particular buffs as having ulterior motives.
    Let's play a quick hypothetical game - say you're working on DDO in the year 2035, and over the last 6 months, you've been working with art to make a new race - let's say, Tabaxi or something. They look great, they have cool tails, they can run really fast - good stuff. It's coming out next update and you're really excited.

    But oh no! Turns out a different race - like, uhhh... Thri-Kreen. Oh god, they're so OP. Turns out their one-man-band Bard synergies are just tearing up the meta. Almost all r10 completions are just 100% Thri-Kreen, people on the forums have caught wind of this and are very upset. You've gotta tone em down. It's hurting endgame - in fact, it's hurting the whole game. Everyone's got four arms and there's no way to just buff the other 32 player-races, it's clearly Thri-Kreen that are the outlier.

    What do you do? Do you hold back Tabaxi to safely nerf Thri-Kreen? How long does Tabaxi wait, implemented fully but disabled, before you feel safe enough to release it? Do you release Tabaxi first and then wait on the nerf? How long would you be able to wait before being able to "safely" nerf Thri-Kreen? What timing would make the players the least angry? If there's a right answer here, let me know.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  2. #102
    Community Member Andoir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Nerf IPS not INQ.

    Inquisitive wouldn't be OP if it didn't clear entire rooms at once.

    AOE should be reserved for casters.

    It's mana limited.

    Pew pew has no limit.

    Improved Precise Shot in and of itself is not the issue here. It's Improved Precise Shot coupled with "No Holds Barred" & "Endless fusillade".
    Making NHB or EF an action boost capable of being up 60% of the time is the underlying factor. (18 seconds out of every 30 seconds)

    There are enough sources of extra action boosts that it's quite easy to not run out of charges between shrines in most quests.

    Manyshot can only be up 16% of the time (20 seconds out of every 120 seconds)
    Bow users are basically getting half as many projectiles down range normally and then their burst is only up 25% of the time as often compared to Inquisitive/Battle Engineer.
    I wonder why they're screaming.
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  3. #103
    Community Member ChadB123's Avatar
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    I don't care about the conspiracy theories. Inquisitive needed adjustments, and I don't care about the timing.

    I will refrain from passing judgement on the changess, but I will say I hope they don't nerf ranged as a playstyle. Shuricannons and Great Xbow builds perform well at end game, both from EE-R10. Inquisitive alone should be changed.

  4. #104
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Us rebalancing Inqusitive is us admitting it. Sometimes we're wrong, and when we realize that we were wrong, we fix our mistakes. What else would you like us to do?
    I'm curious when you will realize stopping support of an entire play style without comment was wrong, regardless of your ultimate decision.

    More generally, I'm also curious when you will realize competitive play decisions are extremely important to game experience, and that it is something you have repeatedly ignored in your class passes. Your current DPS balance will just be thrown away with the next build/tree you implement, and this is not really a wise way to try and make a balanced game.

    Had you set better limits on your cross class abilities, you could actually balance things in a way that stays balanced, and allows much more diverse play options.

    You spend way too much time telling us the game is balanced, and then showing us you were wrong. Please think about more intelligent design choices so that so much of your time is not consumed in this process.

    We want you to do better.
    Last edited by nokowi; 01-09-2020 at 03:13 PM.
    - inactive player -

  5. #105
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    When epic ward is coming since the real cancer in this game are instakills?

  6. #106
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Let's play a quick hypothetical game - say you're working on DDO in the year 2035, and over the last 6 months, you've been working with art to make a new race - let's say, Tabaxi or something. They look great, they have cool tails, they can run really fast - good stuff. It's coming out next update and you're really excited.

    But oh no! Turns out a different race - like, uhhh... Thri-Kreen. Oh god, they're so OP. Turns out their one-man-band Bard synergies are just tearing up the meta. Almost all r10 completions are just 100% Thri-Kreen, people on the forums have caught wind of this and are very upset. You've gotta tone em down. It's hurting endgame - in fact, it's hurting the whole game. Everyone's got four arms and there's no way to just buff the other 32 player-races, it's clearly Thri-Kreen that are the outlier.

    What do you do? Do you hold back Tabaxi to safely nerf Thri-Kreen? How long does Tabaxi wait, implemented fully but disabled, before you feel safe enough to release it? Do you release Tabaxi first and then wait on the nerf? How long would you be able to wait before being able to "safely" nerf Thri-Kreen? What timing would make the players the least angry? If there's a right answer here, let me know.
    the right answer is if they're both p2p don't nerf one at the same time you buff another IF you don't want people to accuse you of doing so for the money

    if you absolutely must release both at the same time, then give concrete information about why you're nerfing right then as opposed to months earlier when players were saying the exact same things

  7. #107
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Worth noting: this is coming at the same time as a THF buff
    and nobody is mad about that! that's my whole point, there are ways to release buffs and nerfs at the same time without making it look like what people are calling a bait and switch (which i don't think is technically accurate but that's not the point)

  8. #108
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    Contrarian view on this comment and the nerf:

    SSG: we think it is balanced but if you disagree show us with examples.
    (later)
    SSG: You have shown that requires some rebalancing.

    Some players: How dare you change it when you thought it was fine months ago just because some players did what you asked and showed that it required toning down???


    Complaints by players about a nerf seem childish in absence of seeing what exactly is changing.
    what examples came up between September and now that didn't come up between release and September, though?

    here's a thread from August detailing everything that made Inquisitive OP. everything that was said there was NOT enough for Inquisitive to be OP, because the devs said exactly that a month later. therefore there must be something about Inquisitive NOT said in that thread that makes it OP.

    what is that something?

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    if you absolutely must release both at the same time, then give concrete information about why you're nerfing right then as opposed to months earlier when players were saying the exact same things
    Here's that explanation in a nutshell:
    • Gathering data takes time.
    • Verifying that that data is accurate for the reasons you think it is takes time.
    • Analyzing meaning within that data takes time.
    • Coming to conclusions about why issues are the way that they are takes time.
    • Discussing potential solutions takes time.
    • Prototyping potential solutions takes time.
    • Gathering new data based on solution prototypes takes time.
    • Iterating on changes by repeating the six steps above this one takes time.
    • Qualitative testing on implemented solutions takes time.
    • We just went through the holidays where the humans behind these accounts were with their families.
    • We spent a lot of time on a large ecosystem of changes for this update, a lot of which haven't been shown yet.
    • This is the first update window since Inquisitive issues became apparent where a change that we feel is going to make the impact it needs to make is ready.


    We could've slapped out a harsh change much earlier on this one, but took the time to figure out what our earlier work missed and why. And then, looking at the bigger picture, we started constructing solutions.

    U45 is a big update with a lot more new things, cool things, and buffs in it than nerfs. We're looking forward to showing the whole thing soon.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  10. #110
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Worth noting: this is coming at the same time as a THF buff
    Yes, we like that part.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Let's play a quick hypothetical game - say you're working on DDO in the year 2035, and over the last 6 months, you've been working with art to make a new race - let's say, Tabaxi or something. They look great, they have cool tails, they can run really fast - good stuff. It's coming out next update and you're really excited.

    But oh no! Turns out a different race - like, uhhh... Thri-Kreen. Oh god, they're so OP. Turns out their one-man-band Bard synergies are just tearing up the meta. Almost all r10 completions are just 100% Thri-Kreen, people on the forums have caught wind of this and are very upset. You've gotta tone em down. It's hurting endgame - in fact, it's hurting the whole game. Everyone's got four arms and there's no way to just buff the other 32 player-races, it's clearly Thri-Kreen that are the outlier.

    What do you do? Do you hold back Tabaxi to safely nerf Thri-Kreen? How long does Tabaxi wait, implemented fully but disabled, before you feel safe enough to release it? Do you release Tabaxi first and then wait on the nerf? How long would you be able to wait before being able to "safely" nerf Thri-Kreen? What timing would make the players the least angry? If there's a right answer here, let me know.
    All I heard was I want it to be 2035 already so I can be a kitty.

  12. #112
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Let's play a quick hypothetical game - say you're working on DDO in the year 2035, and over the last 6 months, you've been working with art to make a new race - let's say, Tabaxi or something. They look great, they have cool tails, they can run really fast - good stuff. It's coming out next update and you're really excited.

    But oh no! Turns out a different race - like, uhhh... Thri-Kreen. Oh god, they're so OP. Turns out their one-man-band Bard synergies are just tearing up the meta. Almost all r10 completions are just 100% Thri-Kreen, people on the forums have caught wind of this and are very upset. You've gotta tone em down. It's hurting endgame - in fact, it's hurting the whole game. Everyone's got four arms and there's no way to just buff the other 32 player-races, it's clearly Thri-Kreen that are the outlier.

    What do you do? Do you hold back Tabaxi to safely nerf Thri-Kreen? How long does Tabaxi wait, implemented fully but disabled, before you feel safe enough to release it? Do you release Tabaxi first and then wait on the nerf? How long would you be able to wait before being able to "safely" nerf Thri-Kreen? What timing would make the players the least angry? If there's a right answer here, let me know.
    What you don't do is give everyone four arms, which has been the SSG solution - sharing abilities to make more poor combinations, while ensuring there is only one way to play the game.

    You give four arm play advantages and disadvantages instead of trying to match DPS. This allows a game where people have a wider spread of DPS to be important and useful.

    Please stop matching DPS and focus on unique play experience with unique advantages and disadvantages. Stop making everyone too similar. This would dramatically reduce your balance issues for you.

    Barriers to the most powerful abilities help prevent the type of situation you describe above, and make the fixes much easier.
    - inactive player -

  13. #113
    Community Member Son_of_the_South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Dual halflings, duh, it was asked from day 1.


    Combat Style: Halfling.

    - You are now an adept at flinging and swiping small races at your targets.

    Improved Halfling.

    - Your halflings may now wield extra weapons.

    Dual-halfling:

    - You may now wield two halflings but your 2nd halfling may not doublestrike or wield another weapon or another halfling.

    Perfect-halfling:

    - Halflings you wield are now hasted and gain +10% alacrity.
    Here's another:

    Cost: all credibility: Jealous, inept player may now post insensible nonsense all over selected forum, with particular emphasis on ensuring repeatedly posting so as to appear to have the loudest, yet least meaningful, 'voice'.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Drykks - Baanzai - Elyndaar

  14. #114
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Here's that explanation in a nutshell:
    • Gathering data takes time.
    • Verifying that that data is accurate for the reasons you think it is takes time.
    • Analyzing meaning within that data takes time.
    • Coming to conclusions about why issues are the way that they are takes time.
    • Discussing potential solutions takes time.
    • Prototyping potential solutions takes time.
    • Gathering new data based on solution prototypes takes time.
    • Iterating on changes by repeating the six steps above this one takes time.
    • Qualitative testing on implemented solutions takes time.
    • We just went through the holidays where the humans behind these accounts were with their families.
    • We spent a lot of time on a large ecosystem of changes for this update, a lot of which haven't been shown yet.
    • This is the first update window since Inquisitive issues became apparent where a change that we feel is going to make the impact it needs to make is ready.


    We could've slapped out a harsh change much earlier on this one, but took the time to figure out what our earlier work missed and why. And then, looking at the bigger picture, we started constructing solutions.

    U45 is a big update with a lot more new things, cool things, and buffs in it than nerfs. We're looking forward to showing the whole thing soon.
    If you want some constructive feedback, just avoid telling us that everything is great, as the appearance is that you have your ears closed.

    We watched you tell us stealth was great, and then we found out it actually wasn't being supported. (the opposite of great, I guess)
    We watched you tell us "inquisitive was balanced, with the 100 hours to prove it" when we gave you feedback, and now those statements look a little tone deaf, as the player base was correct.

    Something to the order of "We are scheduling a discussion based on forum feedback" would go a lot further, and doesn't obligate you to take any particular action.

    Every time we give you this type of constructive feedback about communication, it gets ignored.

    Telling us you could not have done any better has that same appearance of not really being open to listening.

    Of course you could have done better. There are constructive comments throughout this thread, if you are willing to listen.

    Your effort is 100%, but the implementation is not always at that same level as the effort.
    - inactive player -

  15. #115
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South View Post
    Here's another:

    Cost: all credibility: Jealous, inept player may now post insensible nonsense all over selected forum, with particular emphasis on ensuring repeatedly posting so as to appear to have the loudest, yet least meaningful, 'voice'.
    Ah I see, insulting and attacking a person who tried to insert a little relaxed humor is now the baseline for meaningful & credible voice!

    Cheers & Congrats! Never seen that one coming


    //Scratches head trying to define "loud" voice in forum posts..


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Worth noting: this is coming at the same time as a THF buff
    Nice! good news
    Last edited by janave; 01-09-2020 at 03:44 PM.

  16. #116
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    There exist a set of builds based on inquisitive that can solo R10 which needs to be addressed...

  17. #117
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Well, I'll have to adapt anyway. I have only 1 char which is an Inquisitive fun build at currently level 2 artificer + level 2 druid. As this is an very experimental build, I'm not playing it that much, because I want to try out other classes first.


    What I notice is that people write that Inquisitive is overpowered - but they never seem to stop playing it. Peoiple don't even try to gimp it.

    What shocks me a bit is that ... mindset of minmaxing is SO MUCH set into stone - as if the player's minds were consisting of rock - that players NEVER have the idea to get away from this mindset.

    It's like eating nothing but vitamine C filled fruit. Because it is so healthy. Nothing but that. People wouldn't even think of eating spaghetti, because there is no vitamine C in it.

    So, everybody's playing Inquisitive, because Inquisitive = Vitamine C. People don't even tinker with gimping it so that it wouldn't be overpowered. It HAS to be played bECAUSE it is so powerful ! And the same peoiple do NOT play anything else BECAUSE it is NOT as powerful as Inquisitive.

    It is quite difficult for me to explain what I mean, because English isn't my first language. But people continie eating sweets called "Inquisitive Sweets", even although they DO know that too much sugar isn't good for their teeth !


    I just wish people were playing more fun builds, and not so much extremely maximized builds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    There exist a set of builds based on inquisitive that can solo R10 which needs to be addressed...
    Thank you very much for proving my point !

    The older I become, the more I hate this extreme profit-oriented approach of people to maximize everything !
    Last edited by Alrik_Fassbauer; 01-09-2020 at 03:47 PM.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  18. #118
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Here's that explanation in a nutshell:
    • Gathering data takes time.
    • Verifying that that data is accurate for the reasons you think it is takes time.
    • Analyzing meaning within that data takes time.
    • Coming to conclusions about why issues are the way that they are takes time.
    • Discussing potential solutions takes time.
    • Prototyping potential solutions takes time.
    • Gathering new data based on solution prototypes takes time.
    • Iterating on changes by repeating the six steps above this one takes time.
    • Qualitative testing on implemented solutions takes time.
    • We just went through the holidays where the humans behind these accounts were with their families.
    • We spent a lot of time on a large ecosystem of changes for this update, a lot of which haven't been shown yet.
    • This is the first update window since Inquisitive issues became apparent where a change that we feel is going to make the impact it needs to make is ready.


    We could've slapped out a harsh change much earlier on this one, but took the time to figure out what our earlier work missed and why. And then, looking at the bigger picture, we started constructing solutions.

    U45 is a big update with a lot more new things, cool things, and buffs in it than nerfs. We're looking forward to showing the whole thing soon.
    A post of "hey, we hear you and Inquisitive is going to be dialed back a bit" sometime in November or December would have been helpful.

    I'm positive that at least part of the blowback comes from having the Inquisitive nerf thrown in as a "by the way, we're nerfing Inquisitive" at the tail end of a podcast instead of a post listing exactly what you have here.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  19. #119
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Here's that explanation in a nutshell:
    • Gathering data takes time.
    • Verifying that that data is accurate for the reasons you think it is takes time.
    • Analyzing meaning within that data takes time.
    • Coming to conclusions about why issues are the way that they are takes time.
    • Discussing potential solutions takes time.
    • Prototyping potential solutions takes time.
    • Gathering new data based on solution prototypes takes time.
    • Iterating on changes by repeating the six steps above this one takes time.
    • Qualitative testing on implemented solutions takes time.
    • We just went through the holidays where the humans behind these accounts were with their families.
    • We spent a lot of time on a large ecosystem of changes for this update, a lot of which haven't been shown yet.
    • This is the first update window since Inquisitive issues became apparent where a change that we feel is going to make the impact it needs to make is ready.


    We could've slapped out a harsh change much earlier on this one, but took the time to figure out what our earlier work missed and why. And then, looking at the bigger picture, we started constructing solutions.

    U45 is a big update with a lot more new things, cool things, and buffs in it than nerfs. We're looking forward to showing the whole thing soon.
    granted, all of that

    what i mean by concrete is more like "X is what made Inquisitive issues become apparent, and we started looking into it on Y date". this lets us verify that X wasn't brought to the developers' attention way before Y date, which goes a long way to "appeas[ing] the 'you're just doing this to sell the new thing' theory". as a bonus it also helps us understand what the developers consider OP and evidence of OP, which goes a LONG way to streamlining both the customer-customer and customer-developer discussion process.

    imagine how differently this thread would have gone if there had been posts like
    October: "fyi we're looking into whether Inquisitive is OP"
    November: "yep, it's definitely OP"
    December: "the fix we had in mind didn't pan out, but Inquisitive is still OP and we're still working on it"
    January: "okay, nerf time"

    of course some people will still be suspicious when p2p nerf is simultaneous with new p2p thing, but from our perspective the devs went from "Inquisitive is perfectly balanced" to "okay, nerf time" overnight. that abruptness would be suspicious even in a vacuum.

    and of course you don't have to do any of this. my understanding from this thread is the devs want to alleviate this suspicion, and i feel this would be a very potent way of doing so.

  20. #120
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post

    I just wish people were playing more fun builds, and not so much extremely maximized builds.
    They haven't supported the builds that people said were fun, and their design choices actively discourage players from choosing fun over rewards.

    If they were going to put in huge rewards, SSG would have had to match fun with rewards, letting people progress at similar rates when they play whatever they enjoy. They chose not to do this, continually pushing players to play one way. Even their dungeon design choices support this mentality.
    - inactive player -

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