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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Does SSG realize that part of "fixing a mistake" is ensuring it won't happen again and actually taking ownership of the mistake, correct? Just twiddling some bits in a file is not what any layperson would describe as "taking ownership".
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    I play a DC caster with dc's that work in mid-high reapers post nerf and I can remove 4 mobs before the inquis can finish one with the exceptions of a few specific player's inquis. and spell timers are usually done by that time to start over, not to mention aoe instakills or AOE dps damage. by that time the mobs have lined up for ips but often the environment limits getting them all in a straight line. That caster is multiple lives and not a build a new player can jump into. If your using wail and blowing up, you may want to rethink your approach. perhaps mass hold and then wail. perhaps heightened circle of death and stay far away is better. but as one of the best you probably don't need that tip.

    is that the best way to play a dc wizard - no. you should be mass holding mobs first in reaper. but if I do instakills can keep up or surpass inquis builds from many good players.

    As for mana, reaper has a benefit called spell balls that give you spell points back or you conserve spell points by limited use of high cost spells. PK is not high cost. You can't run a caster doing lvl 9 spells all day with full metamagics and make it through a dungeon. both myself and the inquis need to shrine so that is equal. me for spell points, inquis for no holds barred charges.

    I do agree inquis needs a slight adjustment but it's not op the way the forums make it out to be. What I see is that inquis is an easier path to a good build for pugs with little room to mess it up unlike most multiclassing in ddo. if the attack speed in tier 5 is reduced form 30% to 20% that should be enough.
    Not sure what the point of this. This is the dictionary definition of patronizing. apparently kind or helpful but betraying a feeling of superiority; condescending
    Spare me.

    You must play with some terrible inquisitives then.
    Toon on cannith

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Not sure what the point of this. This is the dictionary definition of patronizing. apparently kind or helpful but betraying a feeling of superiority; condescending
    Spare me.

    You must play with some terrible inquisitives then.

    I think he's partially right though. wizards are in a good place for questiing right now. After the inquis nerf, there really is no reason for sorc not to be flavor of the month though. Nearly the same cc/instakill kit as wizard with nearly as much dps as Inquis.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I feel obligated to point out that this was a hypothetical scenario that hopefully made a few players realize that what they are asking for is impossible, and not an actual announcement that, in the year 2035, we'll be releasing Tabaxi and Thri-Kreen.
    ..and here I was hoping that, in this case, forewarned really *is* four-armed.

    (sorry)

  5. #165
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    Already listed.

    1. Notify the player base you are actually discussing inquisitive power levels
    2. Don't tell the player base they ae wrong, when you might have to eat your own words
    3. Show that you are listening by acknowledging what was said instead of pretending you were not given suggestions
    4. Take actions to prevent this from happening repeatedly

    The experience people receive is not optimal with this Op/nerf cycle. It feels like your design is jerking us around. People get caught in the middle of TR's, and in builds they would not have chosen without the nerf. You seem to be designing for the people that will play whatever is most OP with raw power levels, which needs zero of your time and resources, instead of what is unique that makes a particular game play fun.

    Now please show us you can you do #3.
    Last edited by nokowi; 01-09-2020 at 06:34 PM.
    - inactive player -

  6. #166
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Not sure what the point of this. This is the dictionary definition of patronizing. apparently kind or helpful but betraying a feeling of superiority; condescending
    Spare me.

    You must play with some terrible inquisitives then.
    Do you play an Inquisitive yourself?

    You called yourself one of the very best DC casting Wizards. Someone else said that their experience didn't match how you described your experience. That isn't condescending. That's pointing out that your experience didn't match their experience (even though you called yourself one of the best DC casting Wizards).

    Wizards and Sorcerers are both doing REALLY well right now. They each have different strengths, but they're both in a REALLY good place compared to 6/6/8 Inquisitives that are all the rage right now. Inquisitives can do some things that offensive casters can't. Offensive things can do some things that Inquisitives aren't as good at. That's okay.

    An even better option is a DC offensive caster alongside a DPS character like an Inquisitive or any of the dozen other options that are still viable even if they aren't the same level of cake-walk-through-R1-solo that Inquisitives AND Sorcerers AND Wizards currently are.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  7. #167
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordolGreydon View Post
    I think he's partially right though. wizards are in a good place for questiing right now. After the inquis nerf, there really is no reason for sorc not to be flavor of the month though. Nearly the same cc/instakill kit as wizard with nearly as much dps as Inquis.
    The biggest reason why Sorc won't be absolutely dominating parties the way that Inquisitives do now is that you have to play a Sorcerer to play a Sorcerer. If you want to play an Inquisitive, you can be any class, so you can knock out your Class lives with Inquisitives. You'll want to knock out your Racial lives with Sorcerer or Wizard. It's obviously going to be harder to get your Cleric life with a Sorcerer unless you want to eat a +20 Lesser Heart.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  8. #168
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    you can say what changed your mind

    you don't have to, but i can't imagine devs looking at this community interaction and seeing it as a success. may as well give it a shot, right?

  9. #169
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    You can't win this, you know.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  10. #170
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Not sure what the point of this. This is the dictionary definition of patronizing. apparently kind or helpful but betraying a feeling of superiority; condescending
    Spare me.

    You must play with some terrible inquisitives then.
    He does. Some of the worst.
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  11. #171
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    You can't win this, you know.
    She can win me over with one sentence, by acknowledging that she was given actionable suggestions, and that she heard them.

    Turning detractors into supporters is a process.
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  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It will be. DDO is actually doing really, really well. I'm extremely confident in our ability to continue to improve. Maybe I'll even get around to reworking the monk class by then, who knows.
    By rework, you mean, un-nerf? haha, just busting your chops Thanks for everything!

    Nico

  13. #173
    Community Member Valiance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    I have read this entire thread and honestly can't believe the response. You just gotta shrug it off and know people are going to complain no matter what. Honestly the only thing I can think of that would ameliorate a reasonable concern would be to offer "30% point refund" for anyone who bought inquisitive in the past 3 months or something. Even that is not necessary.

    On the substance of the matter inquisitive needs to be nerfed and I can't even believe there is a debate.

    I like to find the "hidden" op in this game. Cool build combinations, trying new stuff out, trying to see what works and what works best. With inquisitive in the state it is in I literally feel compelled to play it since I know it is by far the most effective build in the game...yet I'm bored of playing ranged right now. Thus the current state of Inq has literally lead to me barely playing anymore. This nerf is great news as I'll feel excited to play new things, in addition to the Alchemist that is coming soon.

    People gotta realize games are adjusted and you need to roll with it for the good of the game.

  14. #174
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    Calm down ppl, it is going to be like warlocks.

    Just after the 5th nerf that inqs are going to be horrible.

    It is funnier to read the forums than play the game lately.

  15. #175
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    Whew! What a ride. I laughed, I cried, I kissed five bucks good-bye!


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We do. Sometimes we do it right, sometimes we don't and need to correct our mistakes.



    Wow, what a mistake that would be. Acknowledging that idea at all gives a certain legitimacy to it, even if our acknowledgement is to repeatedly step in and say "this conspiracy theory is both completely false and drives an unneeded wedge in-between the players and developers which is ultimately harmful to DDO as a project, please stop." That being said, here I am, asking players politely to avoid escalating the situation, so oh well, guess I walked into that one, didn't I.

    There is literally no way to time any nerf without stepping on a different feature - in fact, if we had nerfed Inq in U44, players would still be sitting here telling us that this is all a ploy to avoid overshadowing Alchemist. In fact, if we wait a few months and nerf it in U46, surprise, it's still all a big ploy to get people to play Alchemist. Even if Alchemist were just cancelled - like, whoops, sorry, no new class, turns out DDO explodes if more than 14 are implemented, our bad - nerfing Inq would magically become a sinister plot to avoid overshadowing Paladin. Or Two-Handed Fighting. Or Stealth. Or Mounts. Or anything - everything - doesn't matter what it is, all that matters is that it came out in the same update, or the next update, or two updates later, or two years later, and therefore must be a cold and calculated marketing decision.

    How should we release and rebalance things, if putting any release of any new feature and any rebalance of any old feature in the same calendar year becomes a sinister conspiracy to defraud people? Is there a way to win this situation?
    Warning: please note I used this particular post to use as a reply but what follows is not a personal criticism of any one person. I'm not even sure who at SSG should be getting their ear twisted over bad decisions. Also, I don't really know why I'm bothering to take the time to do this, but here goes.


    Remember when people would sell stacks of 22 kobold prayer beads in AH? There will be players that chase every last quantum of power, no matter how small. There is no reason to Monty Haul the power rewards.

    Likewise, there will always be some people that want more POWAH. It is the job of SSG to basically ignore that eternal insistence.

    Did SSG see how popular the Hardcore server was? Does SSG have any idea why it was as popular as it was? Here's a hint - grouping and challenge. People playing together with under-powered characters.

    Did SSG really truly believe that Inq wasn't OP? Really? Really really? I didn't need to play Inq to know it was OP. I didn't need to see videos of Inq players pwning content to know it was OP. I didn't need to read the tree specs to know it was OP but I did even though I'm terrible at doing that and it still was painfully obvious that it would be OP. All I needed to know that it would be OP was to know it was the newest new. And that I knew it would be OP because it was the newest new says more about what I know about DDO's history than anything else. And that is sad.

    When introducing something new, say a new class, the first and last questions SSG should ask is, "What does this add to the game? Why would players be interested?" If the answer is "It is more powerful," then you, SSG, have not done your jobs.

    Additionally, and this is just my opinion, a universal tree should accent a class or build, not define it.

    Now the reason I chose this particular post to use as a reply:
    Is there a way to win this situation?
    Yes, absolutely yes there is a way to win this situation. More than one, even. The easiest way is to avoid it. Don't release stupidly OP things then nerf them. If that requires testing then open a test server. There are plenty of devoted players, though sadly much fewer now, willing to do just that, TEST. If you won't open a test server, then use the preview server to solicit feedback BEFORE releasing the next stupidly OP thing so you can make adjustments.

    But lets assume for the moment that releasing stupidly OP things is simply unavoidable. In that case, there should be a place and a procedure for players to make the case and be reviewed in a timely manner. And yes, this requires informed engagement on the part of SSG.

    Lastly, you really didn't think Inq was OP? Really?

    Master Inquisitive: +2 to all Ability Scores. +10 Ranged Power. While wielding a Light or Heavy (non-repeating) Crossbow, your Vorpal hits will knock down targets hit on a natural 20 + confirmation for 6 seconds without a saving throw, as a Great Crossbow. In addition, you gain +4 Damage dice with Law on your Side.
    Sounds like a typical capstone to me.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    If we distill the public communications to their core essence, isn't this essentially what we have?

    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: Its not OP
    SSG: oh whats that? It's OP? prove it?
    SSG: Crickets
    SSG: ...
    SSG: ...
    SSG: ...
    SSG: ...
    SSG: ...
    SSG: ...
    SSG: ***Nerf Bat*** (oh yeah, we were wrong)
    Now in the non-gaming professional software world, many of us don't get to deploy radio silence to our core users as a tactic while we fix things that affect them. And, while all the reasons for the time it takes to fix a software issue are true and valid (as communicated by Steelstar), how one communicates publicly to their users during that time is integral to how one takes "ownership" of the problem (even if one thinks that the problem might be in the user's heads).

    It could have been handled far more elegantly as such:

    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: If you believe it to be OP please provide case data we can review.
    SSG: We have received enough data to begin targeting the problem with potential solutions
    SSG: We are working on crafting viable solutions.
    SSG: We are working on crafting viable solutions.
    SSG: We are working on crafting viable solutions.
    SSG: We are working on crafting viable solutions.
    SSG: We are working on crafting viable solutions.
    SSG: We are working on crafting viable solutions.
    SSG: We have a viable solutions coming
    SSG: ***Nerf Bat***
    And the best communication is "we are looking at addressing the cycle of nerfing and how that can be eliminated on an ongoing basis".

    None of this is particular rocket science (although asking dev staff to communicate effectively to end users sometimes is to them like asking to undergo a root canal sans anesthetic - and some I'd never let in front of users at all). If you want to build a trusted rapport with your users though, it greatly helps to meet them on their layman's terms when it comes to the frankly social interactions of software problem management.

    If one can't figure out how to hack together some decent social strategies for these things, that other option is to create a window into a problem ticket framework like Bugzilla and just ask staff to update that. And be thankful you're not in an SLA with key users where you have to provide bridge calls and status updates every 30 min, so I don't think Chai and everyone else are really asking for a lot.

  17. #177
    Systems Designer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickodeamous View Post
    By rework, you mean, un-nerf? haha, just busting your chops:) Thanks for everything!

    Nico
    Good gracious, derail aside, I have so many pages and pages of what I want to do to the Monk class. Good lord. In my mind, I'd love to see Henshin Mystic take all of the tanky stuff out of Shintao and become the Quarterstaff and Ki Flame tank tree, where Cauldron of Flame becomes an AoE "enemies that are within the flames will consider you at the top of their hate list" kind of thing, and their ranged Ki flame attacks carry significant threat bonuses. I would absolutely rework the huge amount of active attacks present in Shintao that carry slight bonuses, put all of the saucy fun CC in more accessible and less bizarre places, and make it less of a semi-bruiser defensive-y tree and into a more streamlined CC-and-Melee-DPS tree. Finally, Ninja Spy needs way better Tier 5s and has a lot of holes that need to be filled with a better range of thrower and melee boosts. I think Shortsword Monks are such a cool and unique way to play and I wish the tree had more melee support. Oh, and I'd make Ninja Poison and all of the Poison attacks be way easier to use. I like that Ninja Spy is all in on Dark Monk stuff but it feels like there's no real reason to fully invest in the tree compared to a monk/ranger multiclass. Gosh. The class gets so many cool feats, and they have access to so many cool things, but I feel there's just sooooo much fluff inbetween the major hits. I really feel like Monk is strong despite their trees, not because of them.

    What I'm really saying is we're going to keep buffing bard :P
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Do you play an Inquisitive yourself?

    You called yourself one of the very best DC casting Wizards. Someone else said that their experience didn't match how you described your experience. That isn't condescending. That's pointing out that your experience didn't match their experience (even though you called yourself one of the best DC casting Wizards).

    Wizards and Sorcerers are both doing REALLY well right now. They each have different strengths, but they're both in a REALLY good place compared to 6/6/8 Inquisitives that are all the rage right now. Inquisitives can do some things that offensive casters can't. Offensive things can do some things that Inquisitives aren't as good at. That's okay.

    An even better option is a DC offensive caster alongside a DPS character like an Inquisitive or any of the dozen other options that are still viable even if they aren't the same level of cake-walk-through-R1-solo that Inquisitives AND Sorcerers AND Wizards currently are.
    Giving advice like hold a mob is absurdly patronizing.

    Nobody is talking about r1.

    Archmage hasn't been changed since October 20, 2010.
    Toon on cannith

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    The biggest reason why Sorc won't be absolutely dominating parties the way that Inquisitives do now is that you have to play a Sorcerer to play a Sorcerer. If you want to play an Inquisitive, you can be any class, so you can knock out your Class lives with Inquisitives. You'll want to knock out your Racial lives with Sorcerer or Wizard. It's obviously going to be harder to get your Cleric life with a Sorcerer unless you want to eat a +20 Lesser Heart.
    Playing a sorc actually takes skill. You don't just hold the left mouse button down til the end chest.
    Last edited by capsela; 01-09-2020 at 06:53 PM.
    Toon on cannith

  20. #180
    Community Member Rauven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is "taking ownership" if not saying "we were wrong" and fixing the problem? Is there more we can do here?
    No, there isn't. There is nothing you can do or say that will please those who will not accept reasonably explanations. You can't win at their game. The only way to win is to not play. Your and Steel's explanations are enough.

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