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  1. #21
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quicken is must for everything with blue bar, no exceptions.
    Heighten and Embolden for any kind of DC caster, and if you are serious about casting, you don't compromise DCs.
    115+ in your primary school, 105+ secondary schools at least. Much better with 120+.

    Maximize and Empower is okay for levelling, I tend to swap those at cap.

    Empower Heal is okay choice for pally, ranger if you like Cocoon too and didn't take Maximize.

    Extend and Eschew is pointless.

    For castery cleric : Heighten, Embolden, Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge.
    PS: cleric does pathetic damage, Flame Strike and other cleric SLAs are terrible, just forget it. Heal, instakill and some cc instead. Rebuke, LGS dust on bosses.

    Shahang (hjeal me), Wipekin (inquisitor), Nezhat (inquisitor) Ghallanda/Devourer

  2. #22
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    Love enlarge. Love love love enlarge.

    I have a tanky heal cleric. And a DC cleric. DC casters it's just too useful not to take. Tanky cleric I don't currently have it but more and more I am thinking to swap it out....
    ~ Crimson Eagles of Khyber ~
    ~ Melicient ~ Melianny ~ Melinator ~ Melizzic ~ Melton ~ Melvanwy ~ Mellant ~ Melangst ~

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    Metamagic Feats... SNIP

    Other spellcasters have fewer choices which makes the choices for feats tight. Rangers and Paladins have the worst options so taking Metamagic feats seems a waste. They would be better off taking Mental Toughness to help with their low Spell Points.

    My present character is a Cleric with the Quicken, Maximize, and Extend spell metamagics as well as Spell Penetration and Mental Toughness. Heighten Spell might be useful?
    I think the OP's post needs two answers : 1) Metamagics in general and 2) for his cleric.

    1) I'd say they can be fundamentally split into three categories :
    - Spell Power (maximise, empower, intensify, empower healing)
    - Spell DC (heighten, embolden)
    - Spell Utility (quicken, extend, enlarge, eschew materials)
    - we could add a fourth if we consider Spell Penetration, Spell Focus:School and Mental Toughness which aren't technically metamagics but often lumped together...

    Caveat : Which you should choose depends largely on your build and the quest difficulty you are aiming at running...

    Whilst the first category is mostly for 'blaster' type casters (evokers and conjurors), the second category is mostly for 'DC' casters (necromancy, illusion, enchantment, transmutation schools).
    Why 'mostly'? Because a blaster gets reduced damage if saved against and because DC casters need to also have some damage spells as back-up.

    Without going into individual builds and classes I think a few notes should be made with regards specific utility metamagics :
    - All the metamagics in the 'spell power' category are especially valuable for the builds that use sla's and direct damage spells.
    - Empower Healing is also very usefull for non-caster classes (I can only speak for ranger as they have the spell points to maintain it - maybe others need the MT feats...?) to give some oomph to their heals as they can't build as high devotion spell power as casters can.
    - Eschew Materials is largely useless (as in not worth a feat slot, not as an absolute) as it basically only saves you inventory space and platinum.
    - Quicken allows for not being interrupted and faster casting animations which impact more or less depending on class (wizard and cleric cast slower than sorcerers and favoured souls), quest difficulty level and concentration skill investment. Generally, many classes have some slower casting time spells (heal, symbols, summons, dancing balls, etc.) that need this feat to be at all considered in or near combat anyway.
    - Extend, as many have said, is not needed bar short buffs (displacement, haste, pale master aura, etc.). Imo it's a must-have only on a pale master or hybrid melee type build.
    - Enlarge is very usefull on higher difficulties where one hit often equals death
    - Spell Focus : Schools, allows you access to Epic Destiny enhancements along with the DC benefits
    - Mental Toughness doesn't have the same impact it once did but can still be handy for some builds, especially if you can grab the EpicMT (most pure caster classes will be better served choosing something else; oddly I still keep it on my Druid for lack of alternatives)
    - Spell Penetration is for DC casters (iirc exclusively?) and the level of investment is dependant on your Past Life Feats and Enhancement Action Point spend

    2) For your cleric, not knowing the build or domain or what the aims of the build are, I would recommend :
    - some 'Spell Power' ones to use on your sla's, especially for leveling (I only needed Maximise on my Death Cleric); if you are a blaster build I would keep them, if not you could swop out later.
    - Quicken is helpful for healing in combat and needed for certain spells as mentioned earlier
    - at least one Spell Focus : School to make the most of the ED's if you are going into Epic play (mostly pure casters).
    - If I wanted but had to choose, I would ditch Empower Spell for Intensify Spell as it also gives you some spell points.
    - If you swing a sword then Extend comes in handy.
    - I prefer DC builds so consider Embolden and Heighten must haves (and, feat slots allowing for it, would take them on blaster builds too).

    With regards spending AP to reduce the cost of the metamagics, I would avoid it unless for some reason you have many points to spare. There are items, especially at cap, that can allow you to reduce the costs (of note : meridian fragment). Otherwise, as others have mentioned, choosing which meta(s) to apply to which spells and in which circumstances, should be enough to avoid absurd spell point costs when using metamagics. Having the same spell prepared on your hotbar with differnt options toggled is a good idea and much better than using the metas as toggles.

    My 2cp's worth...if you want more specific help we need more info on your build.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    They are related. Wizard can purchase the most Metamagic feats at 12 (of 10) feats level 1-20, and the 2 Epic Metamagic feats at levels 21-30. In Total that means the Wizard has 4 "surplus" feats.

    The Wizard enhancement trees have the most spell like abilities at one time, and because of its high number of total feats & easy optimization have the most spell points with or without SLAs. That makes it the best class to use Metamagic.

    It should be possible for a Wizard to entirely rely on Spell Like Abilities with all the Metamagic's toggled on.

    No other class can do that anywhere nearly as effective. Artificier is second though.
    ================================

    C-Dog is right - you are equivocating quantity with efficiency.
    If you wanted to be an Evoker Wizard and kill everything with Magic Missile and Cyclonic Blast be my guest but I predict it will end badly!
    Also, depending on which Archmage school you are picking would imply different metamagics to choose; for eg : evocation would want maximise and empower, abjuration would want extend, enchantment would want heighten and embolden, illusion would add extend to that...etc.
    I would argue Sorcerer's benefit more directly from metamagics but wizards need them to make for more flexible casters by picking and mixing with their larger spell selection - this is where I would take heed of what others have already said : choosing the right spell for the job at hand (and then eventually applying the right metamagic to it).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    I look at my Cleric and it has obvious flaws. Say I pick a Darkness Divine Disciple. Those SLAs inflict Negative Enemy Damage, which heals Undead and those are fairly common. If not for that I would take this because I really need to find ways to do more damage as a Cleric.

    The Light Divine Disciple SLAs are the same as spells the Cleric already has, but because they are SLAs they take longer to Cooldown, with Flame Strike SLA topping out at 3 times the cooldown as the actual spell. That and they have a dependency to target against Evil and Undead targets, opposite of the Darkness SLAs.
    If you go Dark Disciple you can fall back on Turn Undead, direct damage light spells and Undeath to Death spell to deal with negative energy resistant enemies.
    If you go Light Disciple you won't have that problem. And the sla's, even though they are lacklustre, with the Spell Power metamagic's applied should get you through heroic levelling no problem...

    For cleric casters in general, I would however take heed of Wipey's post - whilst admittedly only aimed at high level play, it is all very valid.

  5. #25
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    There is no hard, fast rule for which metas to take. Plan out your character and then stick to the plan. All those shiny feats when you level suddenly seem more fun than what you planned but you're working toward an effective master of casting, not a Hodge-podge of mediocrity.

    -Quicken- no interrupts if you get hit, and some spells take a long time to cast.

    -I would recommend grabbing Maximize and Empower only after you have a SLA to put them on.

    -Extend; It's a nice to have for the short-term buffs, yet, personally, I'll grab the others first.

    -Enlarge is useful in select cases (Single target spells if you don't have a ray- great to draw them to you- but it shines with Mass Crowd control affects like Mass Hold, Mass Confusion, Cloud Kill, etc)

    -My Rule of Thumb is: Maximize, Empower, and Quicken once I have the SLAs to hang them on). Later, Heighten when the CCs are starting to hit less.

    *Clerics are decent, casting wise, if they draw on a caster domain- the Sun Domain really shines (NPI), as do a few other domains.

    *FvS: I won't speak to this yet as a caster; I'm playing with the melee and crowd control aspects- Sound Burst, Greater Command and Cometfall (though "heighten" is definitely beneficial here).

    *Wizards have a lot of spell slots available, but that allows you to tailor your hotbars for each quest; understanding the threats you'll face and adjusting as you go for a more effective short list is better than splashing all your spells in a frenzy. Wizards are more concerned with SP conservation than Sorcs; they have a larger tool box of available spells- choose the best spell for the job. A Wizard, though, can choose buff spells, damage spells, crowd control spells and still cast knock at the end of the fight to (Possibly) open the chest. (Rogues will always be better at popping locks.)

    *A well built Sorcerer is a monster when it comes to damage, but his or her spell options will be narrow; every spell must be weighed at selection. But, as was said before, the SLAs are their bread and butter. Sorcerors are precise instruments with a narrow focus of mastery.

    *Warlocks... So many SLAs. Every few levels I'll habitually right click everything on my primary hotbar that isn't a standard spell and make certain I assigned all available Metamagics. (In fact, Evard's Tentacles is the only standard spell I keep on my primary HB and that works well enough without metas.)

    SLAs should always have all available, applicable Metas. The standard spells should get metas on a case-by-case basis depending on your needs at the time. Honestly, I'll never cast a standard combat spell (non-SLA) with metas on it from the primary hot-bar. New casters always complain about not having enough SPs- this is one reason why; they pile the metamagics on standard spells. Don't do it. A thirty point Magic Missile will not save the day, but it may very well drain the last of your SPs.

    And more available spells do not make a "better" caster. It means the caster has more options. It's like comparing a Bowie Knife (sorc) with a Swiss Army Knife (Wiz). Each has their use and application if you use it right.

    Finally, once every life, you can swap a feat for free by doing the Lockania quest in the marketplace (Answer some questions get a free feat swap with Fred over in house J. He lives under the garden near the teleporter. He's a charming lad.) Take Toughness as your first feat (Or whatever else you want) then, when you have a SLA to hang a Meta on, swap for the metamagic you think will best suit that SLA.

    And hire Byron. If you are playing a squishy, you'll need him to carry you through the first few levels. Byron is great. Casters only become dangerous after they get a few levels/APs under their belts- Byron will help get you to that point.
    Sometimes I'm too clever for my own good. Bear in mind I'm probably trying to be humorous. Like dodge, it's hit or miss.// Looking for a guild on Orien? Send a tell or mail to Magnifique to join the "Fidelic Brotherhood".

  6. #26
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    They are related. Wizard can purchase the most Metamagic feats at 12 (of 10) feats level 1-20, and the 2 Epic Metamagic feats at levels 21-30. In Total that means the Wizard has 4 "surplus" feats.

    The Wizard enhancement trees have the most spell like abilities at one time, and because of its high number of total feats & easy optimization have the most spell points with or without SLAs. That makes it the best class to use Metamagic.

    It should be possible for a Wizard to entirely rely on Spell Like Abilities with all the Metamagic's toggled on.

    No other class can do that anywhere nearly as effective. Artificier is second though.
    this only follows if all classes get the same SLAs, and have the same enhancements applied to them

    neither is true

    let's consider Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp
    an Archmage can get a Chill Touch SLA for 2 SP and cooldown 6 seconds
    an Air Savant can get a Shocking Grasp SLA for 2 SP and cooldown 4 seconds, and 80 Electric Spell Power, and +5 maximum caster level, AND bypass target's resistance and immunity to electricty

  7. #27
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    From what you say the only 2 Metamagics that are worth taking for anyone else are Heighten and Quicken. The Epic Metamagics have passive bonuses, but only to increasing the maximum Spell Points, so they too are a dubious value, with Embolden Spell being the better of the two.

    Metamagic Feats are generally poor choices because they require both Feats and Spell Points. Only Spell-Like-Abilities can really benefit from the expenditure of finite amount of Feats because they can benefit without also costing additional Spell Points.

    This discussion leads me to the conclusion that Metamagic Feats are not worth it for anyone but the Wizard. The Wizard can afford to purchase Metamagics and has the Spell-Like Abilities to actually use them. Without using Metamagic Feats they are a waste of a Feat.

    I regret picking any Metamagic feats for my Cleric and Ill remember this for the future. A a Non-VIP Player I cant respec my Feats so I ruined my character.

  8. #28
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    From what you say the only 2 Metamagics that are worth taking for anyone else are Heighten and Quicken. The Epic Metamagics have passive bonuses, but only to increasing the maximum Spell Points, so they too are a dubious value, with Embolden Spell being the better of the two.

    Metamagic Feats are generally poor choices because they require both Feats and Spell Points. Only Spell-Like-Abilities can really benefit from the expenditure of finite amount of Feats because they can benefit without also costing additional Spell Points.

    This discussion leads me to the conclusion that Metamagic Feats are not worth it for anyone but the Wizard. The Wizard can afford to purchase Metamagics and has the Spell-Like Abilities to actually use them. Without using Metamagic Feats they are a waste of a Feat.

    I regret picking any Metamagic feats for my Cleric and Ill remember this for the future. A a Non-VIP Player I cant respec my Feats so I ruined my character.
    That isn't what he said.
    Casters can be a challenge, but if you know where you want to focus, spell-wise, you'll be able to figure out the optimal feats for the character.
    If you want crowd control you'll want Heighten
    If you want to inflict damage, you want maximize and empower.

    You can switch a feat for free by doing the Lockania Quest in the marketplace then talking to Fred.
    After that, and a cooldown period, you can offer Fred a Siberys Dragonshard. https://ddowiki.com/page/Fred

    VIP has nothing to do with it. And every character gets a Respec Heart of wood when they are made, and that allows you to change all your feats and spells. (But not class, name or gender.)

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ild-Repository

    This will give you some good builds to model until you understand the intricacies. There are plenty of guidebooks you can google as well. There is no one answer to any build, though. This game allows you to make a unique character. It also allows you to make mistakes, but there are ways to rectify those mistakes.

    If you are on Orien, shoot me a letter in game and I'll send you a Sib Shard for the second feat respec.
    All is not lost for this character, but you can also make a new character and run with that if respec is too daunting a task at this time.
    Sometimes I'm too clever for my own good. Bear in mind I'm probably trying to be humorous. Like dodge, it's hit or miss.// Looking for a guild on Orien? Send a tell or mail to Magnifique to join the "Fidelic Brotherhood".

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket1 View Post
    From what you say the only 2 Metamagics that are worth taking for anyone else are Heighten and Quicken. The Epic Metamagics have passive bonuses, but only to increasing the maximum Spell Points, so they too are a dubious value, with Embolden Spell being the better of the two.

    Metamagic Feats are generally poor choices because they require both Feats and Spell Points. Only Spell-Like-Abilities can really benefit from the expenditure of finite amount of Feats because they can benefit without also costing additional Spell Points.

    This discussion leads me to the conclusion that Metamagic Feats are not worth it for anyone but the Wizard. The Wizard can afford to purchase Metamagics and has the Spell-Like Abilities to actually use them. Without using Metamagic Feats they are a waste of a Feat.

    I regret picking any Metamagic feats for my Cleric and Ill remember this for the future. A a Non-VIP Player I cant respec my Feats so I ruined my character.
    I'm sorry that's what you took away from the discussion; apart from one longbow toon, I have only played casters since I started playing this game and I don't think I have ever had less than 3 metamagic feats on any build. My current cleric has 4 metamagic feats and 5 spellcasting feats (spell pen, focus, etc.)...
    The laqst piece of advice I'll try to give, is that to evaluate the actual 'value' of your feat choice also depends on the alternative feats you would pick in their steed - maybe you can use that to reconsider their efficacy? /shrug

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